Author Topic: Returning to NWN  (Read 1266 times)

Legacy_Fergoose

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« Reply #15 on: April 10, 2014, 12:04:37 pm »


               

As a mere player I appreciate that creatively, builders have to be motivated to make what they want to make. Builders need enjoyment and satisfaction every bit as much as players and DMs. That was great in the early years of NWN and brought us a the fantastically diverse range of servers, game settings and preferences. As the lights go out on some of these servers it's important to have new servers with similar settings (level progression, magic level, RP expectations etc) step up to replace these voids. But since the NWN community has stopped expanding I think builders are missing a trick a little. I'd like to see more of:


 


i) Existing servers, where building work has slowed down or ceased, advertising for new builders to come on board and inject new life into their stable, hosted server with it's own player base. A new builder joining this can be confident that their work will be put to good use and enjoyed by others.


 


ii) Builders with itchy fingers looking for existing projects they can contribute to rather than doing everything from scratch (at least if they are planning on building a server to cover a niche that is already filled). Doing from scratch necessitates probably at least six months to a year of hard graft before you have anything remotely workable to share with the player base.


 


Without the above I hate to think about the thousands of hours of quality building work that will either never see the light of day, or sit hosted and unvisited because there isn't a sufficient team to get the project off the ground. Similarly, it's sad to see the long slow death of servers you have loved because of a reluctance to bring fresh blood into the building team that might add new areas or refresh existing ones. So to answer Comzy67, I'd say building a place from scratch is always worthwhile if you are confident you are filling a niche in NWN that nobody else has covered.


 


Otherwise, things like threads here stating "Builder seeking Server" or "Server seeking Builder" that gave a brief outline of server and builder preferences would be a step in the right direction to make sure the amount of building work that never sees the light of day is minimised.


 


Compromising does not equal weakness, quite the reverse.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_kuronue bloodlust

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« Reply #16 on: April 10, 2014, 06:32:13 pm »


               

I see its time for me to go CEP crazy again '<img'> say hello to the CEP vault soon people. I will be working on this in between my other obligations. I have only one request if you use my vault or items and that is that you do not STRIP or edit them in any way I want to see developers be more open to balanced custom kins (not the overpowered god likes but the people that were able to use class and race to reflect most of the goodies only needing at most 3 immunity's [the Aquatic and Sea elf's slippery skin emulation charm: immunity element 50% Ice effect: entangle 100% and spell: Drown100%]than they have been in the past) on that note are thee any open servers anymore that will not totally strip ever property your armor has?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_kalbaern

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« Reply #17 on: April 10, 2014, 07:55:09 pm »


               

I think we're beginning to stray abit of the OP, but ... in the OP (I'll paraphrase) it was stated that PCs need to be of "mid-level" to have an impact on a PW. Later, "Zwerk" (who's hak work I use alot and look forward to more of constantly) states that PCs need to get to at least 5th level to survive or thrive. While in general, I agree with both statements, I see them as stereotypes, but not absolutes.


 


Over the years, I've had the pleasure of playing with several folks that from the first time they logged in with their new PCs, they were making an impact. They had story lines/backgrounds full of detail and interest and best of all, shared their characters with the rest of the players while not being overly dramatic. I.e., it was enjoyable to get to know these PCs, therefore lots of PCs of all level ranges interacted with them and many times these low level PCs opinions/actions/etc did influence a PW. Of course, these were Role Play themed PWs as these same characters would have respawned endlessly in most other environments.


 


As for the "need to grind", well ... NWN is a computerized version of Dungeons and Dragons. In "DnD", the bulk of wealth and experience does come from adventuring, AKA "grinding". Its "Dungeons and Dragons" afterall, not "Wheelwrights and Seamstresses", not "Barflys and Farmers", not ... "Second Life" or "The SIMs". In DnD and by extension NWN, the goal is generally to get off that barstool, dust off your boots, refletch those arrows and head out to overcome obstacles and creatures and become ... Heroes or even Anti-Heroes. On my own PW, I do reward RP, but the bulk of wealth and experience for PCs is still found while out exploring.


 


"Zwerk" brought up some good points about survivability at low levels and I mostly agree. He also pointed out that many Modules/PWs lack a story or a reason behind the "whys" of many quests or dungeons. I agree mostly as well. As an Admin/Host/Builder/Scripter/Player II can also attest to the fact that it all takes time. Creating a quest, writing all the NPC dialouges, building the areas is often fun, but ... doing it over and over and over can fast be draining as you struggle to make each addition new and unique. '<img'>


 


The "Dreaded Rats of Doom" and "Endless Lines of Zombies" are a given on most PWs ... unless PC simply level up several levels upon entering. Being an "old school" PnPer, I dislike modules where you start above 1st or 2nd level. I want a challenge, I want progression, but I want time to find my footing and get a feel for the environment as well. There's PWs where after joining at 1st level, you do a quest and when completed, voila!, you're 2nd level now. I always feel cheated by these. Why not just start me at 2nd to begin with, especially since the quests rarely help me learn of the PWs systems, nuances and various dynamics. Still, its not easy accomodating new PCs with "survivable" challenges.


 


I hate rats, not RL rats, those I'm indifferent to, but rather the Bioware Rats and Dire Rats prevelent in most starting dungeons/quests. Mainly, its their disease inflicting bites and razor sharp teeth that can decapitate squishy mages and monks in one hit that get frustrating. Admittedly, I do use "rats" in one of my own low level quest areas. They spawn reasonably based on the PC or Party's level(s) though. They also lack diseased maws, do only 1pt of damage (unless a crit of course) and are "undead skeletal rats" for something different. There's also a reason for exploring the area, to determine why its overrun with "dead rats". Successful exploration will reveal that the "exterminator" which killed the intial real rats was a devotee of Talona with a warped sense of revenge. Being stiffed for the erradication, they wrought revenge by turning the dead rats into undead.


 


Zombies, skeletons, goblins, etc... are also neccessary evils to create low level adventures. In my low level areas, the undead have slightly slower movement rates, so you can usually run away if you need to. They spawn fairly appropriately based on the level of the PC or Party. There's also generally a quest with an explanation as to why they exist. Still, not all builds are the same. some classes are always going to be harder to play, especially at lower levels and I'm not a fan of the "all classes should be equal at every level school" since my gaming roots hail back to late 70's PnP. Being an "old fart" and "old schooler", I also find inspiration in DnD versions from the original up thru 3.5 edition. Old school encounters with "Xvarts" (2nd edition and found in the Baldur's Gate game), my skeletals priests are actually "Hecuevas" and many other such details. Still, what to do for those that have finished the quests, but still need gold and experience to continue?


 


To help out starting PCs (and be useful to all if the continue), I have several foraging, mining, fishing, hunting and cooking systems inplace. Find some berries, save the right type and a certain NPC will reward you for them (she likes to make freash pies). Glean from a wheat field and fill a bushel for a greatful farmer. Do a "deliver and return" quest for a local merchant. Go retrieve a child's lost toy (OK, that one involves defeating some "blue meanies", AKA "xvarts"). Anyhow, successfully mining ore or minerals grants a small XP reward, finding fruit, berries, grains or herbs does as well. Many "edibles" also restore 1hp when consumed. Cooking meals by combining ingredients in a pot or stove creates "meals" that restore 4hp or more when consumed. Catch a fish and get ... XP and something to cook ... or just sell your catch for a couple gp. Locked or locked and trapped chests can be "bashed" and you'll just get a lesser loot reward, but pick the lock and get some XP rewarded and the same if you remove/recover the traps on doors or chests.


 


I think that what is more important than shear levelling speed is whether or not there is something to do that not you've not already done a half dozen or more times at your level and is challenging yet survivable and entertaining. So allowing players to start out at an advanced level can save on resources (fewer areas needed) initially. Myself, I'm pretty anal about efficiency and thusly have a module I can grow constantly. So area count and creature pallette counts are of little concern to me (or rather, not a factor in expansion) and I can add new adventuring areas that fill in level ranges as I see a need. Still, folks like to progress and do so noticeably. On my own PW (values vary by player/PC/time spent actively adventuring) I average around 1,000 xp per 2 hours spent exploring. Not at low levels, but from 1st thru 20+ so far. Now, I do have to challenge myself. My 16th level Ranger won't make 1,000 xp killing effortless goblins for a couple hours, nor should he. If however he travels and faces foes more attuned to his own challenge level, he'll progress consistantly.


 


Over the years I've played NWN online, I've visited countless PWs. Some I hated, some I merely disliked, but many I could tolerate and a few I eventually even enjoyed. The one common thread was that, not a single one ever met all of my own wants or needs ... that goes for my own PW currently. Not every rule or feature is a deal breaker for me. By exploring other PWs, I've also seen what I liked and disliked and generally built my own PW based on those experiences. As an example, I dislike modules where you can "plop and rest" freely, especially in dungeons and dangerous wilds. At the same time, I found resting timers too restrictive, especially when you invite a "caster" to adventure with your party, but they need to rest to memorize a better spell  selection and the whole group now has to "stand around" waiting for the caster's rest timer to expire so they can choose new spells. Or only being able to create X number of potions/scrolls/wands due to a lengthy rest timer. So my own work around has been unlimited resting, but only in designated areas that allow resting like an inn room or a "safe" cave, campsite, etc... in the wilds. So now, since most "groups" form up in or near a town, any delays are minimal if a caster desires to reset spells.There's been lots of other things I've "changed" to meet my own preferences and I'm sure I'll continue making changes/additions as time and skills allow.


 


Lastly, even on RP PWs, I've met tons of players over the years that assumed they needed to be a certain level to affect a change there. It isn't always true. It might be considered the "norm", but ... we can all be exceptions. Its up to the Admins/DMs though to notice and react.


 


Good luck to any and all who decide to create their own PW. Just do it for your own enjoyment and be willing to share it with others. If you seek praise and high marks alone, you'll just be frustrated and heartbroken in the end.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_henesua

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« Reply #18 on: April 10, 2014, 09:09:22 pm »


               

in the OP (I'll paraphrase) it was stated that PCs need to be of "mid-level" to have an impact on a PW. Later, "Zwerk" (who's hak work I use alot and look forward to more of constantly) states that PCs need to get to at least 5th level to survive or thrive. While in general, I agree with both statements, I see them as stereotypes, but not absolutes.


I agree with the above statements depending on context.

If its primarily single player versus environment, and the environment only offers challenges related to level of the PC, then yes the PC has to be a particular level to participate. There is no way around that.

When other players (DMs and PCs) are in the mix, level is not necessarily a deciding factor because a player can influence the other players through their PC. Roleplaying can go a really long way.

But that is really besides the point. The question for me is what kinds of things do you offer in your PW when a DM and other players aren't around?

Is it more than explore, kill, acquire, craft?

I hunger for more possibilities. It seems to me this is largely unexplored territory, and I would love to see more outside the box thinking. And I think that if builders look at grinding as potentially boring - or at least not to depended on - then we might start coming up with some novel gameplay.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #19 on: April 10, 2014, 09:30:36 pm »


               



I hunger for more possibilities. It seems to me this is largely unexplored territory, and I would love to see more outside the box thinking. And I think that if builders look at grinding as potentially boring - or at least not to depended on - then we might start coming up with some novel gameplay.




 


How about defending a village by building defenses instead of fighting off attackers? That could involve crafting as well as many other skills.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Squatting Monk

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« Reply #20 on: April 10, 2014, 09:58:11 pm »


               


The question for me is what kinds of things do you offer in your PW when a DM and other players aren't around?




 


This. While I certainly want DM interaction and party dynamics and role-play, a server needs to be viable when these things aren't available. Face it: the NWN population is dwindling and it's unreasonable to expect there to always be a DM or other players online to rescue an otherwise boring server.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_The Mad Poet

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« Reply #21 on: April 10, 2014, 10:13:23 pm »


               


How about defending a village by building defenses instead of fighting off attackers? That could involve crafting as well as many other skills.




 


It's a great idea. As a DM ran event it would do very well. I've seen similar things done in the past with DM's getting thieves to setup traps in preparation for their guild being raided.


 


As a scripted quest if this town is always being attacked every time players enter isn't the grind just the same? Go here, build stuff, wait for enemy to die at your defenses? Rinse, repeat for more XP/Gold. In the end isn't repetition the root of everyone disliking grinding? 


 


I would reason that breaking repetition is the way to go. Find ways to make it different every time. By far the best way is active DM's. Again... it's the one major difference between NwN and those run-of-the-mill MMO games. Community and personal attention. 


               
               

               
            

Legacy_henesua

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« Reply #22 on: April 10, 2014, 10:21:31 pm »


               

I would reason that breaking repetition is the way to go. Find ways to make it different every time. By far the best way is active DM's. Again... it's the one major difference between NwN and those run-of-the-mill MMO games. Community and personal attention.


Breaking repetition isn't exactly what I was getting at so much as simply creating new kinds of activities, but nevertheless I do think it goes a long ways toward undoing the boredom. You malign the run of the mill MMO games, but it seems to me that the NWN community is actually falling behind in this regard. You don't have to depend on DMs to avoid repetition. You can have each completion of a quest change the state of the world. And you could have the quest rotate the state of the world between 2 or more conditions.

If you save the village from the coming attack, the village is in a healthy state, and the bandits who were defeated are in a sorry state. The bandit's sorry state creates another quest that when completed can potentially put them on the offensive again. And so on. Each quest alters a feature and it can go around in a cycle. This does repeat but it also allows the world to vary and for players to feel like they are impacting it. All without a DM lifting a finger.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #23 on: April 10, 2014, 10:46:05 pm »


               


As a scripted quest if this town is always being attacked every time players enter isn't the grind just the same? Go here, build stuff, wait for enemy to die at your defenses? Rinse, repeat for more XP/Gold. In the end isn't repetition the root of everyone disliking grinding? 


 




This and the post you made earlier sounds to me like you think that because quests and other scripted events will get boring when repeated you'll just dismiss the idea and add some more monsters to kill.


But if you have monsters to kill, quests to solve and scripted events even though all of them will repeat after a while you'll still have three different things to do instead of just killing monsters.


I think you dismiss the idea of quests too easily. They have far more potential than you think.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #24 on: April 10, 2014, 10:49:25 pm »


               



If you save the village from the coming attack, the village is in a healthy state, and the bandits who were defeated are in a sorry state. The bandit's sorry state creates another quest that when completed can potentially put them on the offensive again. And so on. Each quest alters a feature and it can go around in a cycle. This does repeat but it also allows the world to vary and for players to feel like they are impacting it. All without a DM lifting a finger.




I like your way of thinking.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

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« Reply #25 on: April 10, 2014, 11:02:14 pm »


               

<trying to...>


 


And, remembering that there are different play-styles, the defend the town scenario (and others outside the paradigm), can also provide level-agnostic game-play such as stealth (sneak past the siege and reach the calvary), diplomacy (convince neighbors to help against the bandits), arcane lore (find out how to make the old dwarven automata work)...


 


All of which can feed into a dependency tree triggering viral quest generation.


 


Edit: To clarify that last bit, I mean a procedural quest generating system that does *not* feature fed-ex quests, but level-agnostic play and quests tailored to the play-style (deciding to go the arcane lore branch triggers an arcane-lore followup with two non-arcane-lore side-branches..., choosing the stealth branch generates a followup stealth main and a couple related non-stealth options... etc)


 


<...talk really fast>



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Comzy67

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« Reply #26 on: April 11, 2014, 01:47:19 am »


               

Wow!


 


I really wasn't sure what to expect when I posted here.  I had hopes of getting some good discussion to help me sort out my own thoughts on the topic, but deep down my first goal was to find out if the NWN community was dead. To y pleasant surprise, I see it is alive and well. It almost brings a tear to this old dwarf's eye. I honestly logged in expecting to see one or maybe two, at the most, replies.


 


As I was reading through all this my mind raced from one topic to the next,  so many good points and so many ideas all raveled together. I think it best, if I start with one of the larger discussions of the thread.  Grinding.


 


I didn't intend to knock the dnd system, tho, as I reread my post, it sure does seem that way. I guess, getting down to the nitty-gritty, I don't like the concept of killing (I'm doing quick math here) around 5000-10000 monsters in a natural lifetime to get up to top level.  Call me lazy, call me what ever... I guess I just find it boring.  I think I saw that stated by someone else in the comments somewhere. I don't see the problem with that, and in some places, for a few levels, i think its ok....but I really would like to see less monsters, but more fighting. I guess I better explain....


 


Instead of 100 enemies to kill at 50 xp each, I think I would want to see 10 enemies at 500 xp. make them harder, make them more memorable, make people have to use cunning and tactics to drop them. In doing so, players would have more reward. It would help alleviate some of the grinding though the levels.  I think good quest writing and DM quests mixed in will always help. By placing more exp on the quest completion as opposed to the monster killing in the process of completing the quest, it promotes more dynamic solution possibilities as well.  Fighter classes should typically think the blazing a path to glory is the correct solution, but what about a stealthy rogue, or a shapeshifting mage, they might prefer something other than IGMS spamming.


 


Anyhow, my laptop is beginning to overheat, so I will have to continue more topics in another post....


               
               

               
            

Legacy_The Mad Poet

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« Reply #27 on: April 11, 2014, 01:49:22 am »


               


This and the post you made earlier sounds to me like you think that because quests and other scripted events will get boring when repeated you'll just dismiss the idea and add some more monsters to kill.


But if you have monsters to kill, quests to solve and scripted events even though all of them will repeat after a while you'll still have three different things to do instead of just killing monsters.


I think you dismiss the idea of quests too easily. They have far more potential than you think.




 


I'm not dismissing them. I'm just stating that predetermined quests can be just as boring as predetermined monster encounters if you do them over and over again. Variety is the spice of life, absolutely. But when your variety is rice, noodles, or steamed vegetables... eventually all three just bum you out.


 




Breaking repetition isn't exactly what I was getting at so much as simply creating new kinds of activities, but nevertheless I do think it goes a long ways toward undoing the boredom. You malign the run of the mill MMO games, but it seems to me that the NWN community is actually falling behind in this regard. You don't have to depend on DMs to avoid repetition. You can have each completion of a quest change the state of the world. And you could have the quest rotate the state of the world between 2 or more conditions.


If you save the village from the coming attack, the village is in a healthy state, and the bandits who were defeated are in a sorry state. The bandit's sorry state creates another quest that when completed can potentially put them on the offensive again. And so on. Each quest alters a feature and it can go around in a cycle. This does repeat but it also allows the world to vary and for players to feel like they are impacting it. All without a DM lifting a finger.




 


Yeah it would be great to script all that. I applaud anyone who does because its great to have that kind of experience as a player. I just would hate to see what I think is the best part of the NwN experience, a living, breathing, and creative storyteller (DM if you prefer), be completely replaced with coding (not that I'm stating it is anybody's intention) merely because they can't be there all the time.


 


A lot of these very complex events like sneaking past a siege to steal something, breaking into a house, or even swaying the opinion of the local lord can all be done real time, real interaction, with real people if a DM is present. Otherwise... well... I don't believe trying to convince my microwave to cook my food will work. We won't share a laugh at the expense of my exploded hot pocket that I put in for too long. To me what keeps NwN unique is human to human interaction. Otherwise... I'll just talk to Siri.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_henesua

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« Reply #28 on: April 11, 2014, 03:59:41 am »


               

I do not see why the two - coding and DMing - have to be mutually exclusive. I take coding to this level so that my DMed events are more interesting. Granted I retired that kind of NWN dev last year (because doing absolutely everything burned me out), and now I am just coding for a team. But regardless it remains the way I think about it. The module should serve the needs of DMs. And as I pointed out above it is my philosophy that automating things makes a DMs life easier so that they can focus on doing things that are impossible to code.


 


The challenge I laid earlier still stands though: coming up with novel things to do when a DM is not available is key to making a server fun.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #29 on: April 11, 2014, 12:06:06 pm »


               


Yeah it would be great to script all that. I applaud anyone who does because its great to have that kind of experience as a player. I just would hate to see what I think is the best part of the NwN experience, a living, breathing, and creative storyteller (DM if you prefer), be completely replaced with coding (not that I'm stating it is anybody's intention) merely because they can't be there all the time.


 




If there is a DM who is a good story teller, great! But you also have to think about all the time there's no DM online. The community is still active, but no as big as it used to be. If you just have events with a DM at a certain time where most people can be online you could as well write a few DM-friendly multi-player modules for those times instead of having a whole PW.


Nobody is saying a DM should be replaced by coding, on the other hand just having DM events won't be enough.


 



 


Comzy67:


To my pleasant surprise, I see it is alive and well. It almost brings a tear to this old dwarf's eye.



 


Great! Another one! '<img'>