Returning to NWN

[Legacy_Comzy67]

               

I have recently spent a few years away from Neverwinter Nights playing other games and doing other things.  I have recently watched the birth of micro-transactions in gaming (I promise to try not to bring it up again), and due to this, have had inklings of returning to my roots, to return to a game that I know would never let me down. I have always enjoyed the world creation and immersion that NWN can provide, and find myself longing for it from time to time (actually quite a bit lately).

As I begin now to return, I see the game servers have all been shut down, making it hard to see who all still plays and what PW’s still exist.  I do, however still see new servers starting up from time to time as I peruse varying forums, so I know there is still some activity. It is a testament to the strength of this game, in my honest opinion.

 

My 2 questions to start, is simply, is there any interest in new PW servers, or would it be a waste of my time to attempt to build one? If not, is there a server that exists similar to the one I outline below?  I used to run them in the past, and now having been away from it a while, I have been able to think about what I would do if I would build another one. If there is interest, and can find some others with the same aspirations, I may try to host a server to play on. I will go into more details if we reach  that point, but I wanted to just provide a few initial points for the direction and style of the server.

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Server Type: Role Play. I want player immersion and player ownership. I have had personal feelings about allowing evil chars but it can always be discussed. I can see players with some shadiness, like a Regis type character (from Salvatore’s book)

 

Magic Level: Medium to High. This is a tricky one, as it becomes ever troublesome to balance a server correctly, but taking the time early on to lay out the mechanics could lead to interesting gameplay. Low magic is a lot simpler to balance, but I fear low magic is not much draw for the limited players around these days.

 

Leveling Progress: Quick. Let’s be honest, I hate grinding. I hate it even more today because so many games seem to employ that strategy, and what’s worse, they try to make you pay real money to reduce the time it takes (sorry, I promised myself I would get on this soap box). I won’t get into that any further here, but suffice it to say, I want to allow players to become productive in the role play setting relatively quickly. The only other way to do this is to start characters at mid-level. We can debate that at a later time.

 

Creature Amount:  Completely Varying. I don’t want every area to be three steps and four spawns, likewise I wouldn’t want there to be only three creatures in the whole server.  Some creatures makes sense to be a lot of… goblins, or giant ants or something, dragons, should almost always be uniquely named (and virtually impossible to kill)

 

Loot System:  I have always liked Commche’s loot system, or something similar that would allow complete randomization like Diablo used to.  I wouldn’t also mind having more negatives thrown in. This adds a bit more risk or more choice, instead of the ultimate, obvious choice no weakness, uber-sword. I believe Commche’s would align itself to a randomized magical enchantment system as well.

 

Crafting: Any or all. I love these crafting systems from my younger days, and it provides a good way for players to have things to do when they are on alone.  Unfortunately I do not like the grindy nature, and would want to find a better way.  I think the answer I came up with is utilizing the craft armor/weapon/trap/and potion abilities to tie it to level rise. A system where crafting makes levels of base items, then magic users could enhance them, based on the level of the caster and the level and quality of the item.  Not sure anything like that exists, but it is what I would like to try.

 

Death system: There’s a lot of these, but the one I remember is AxeMurderer’s system.  Anything similar to that is what I would want.  I wouldn’t mind eliminating the penalties and adding a bit more of a death quest instead.  I believe you may actually get more sting from dying this way, but this is all highly debatable. I have always felt a bit more fear should exist in the players.

 

I want high variety of area types. I typically break these into three categories, Exploration/Travel areas, Hak’N’Slash Dungeon areas, and Social/RP areas. I think my initial thought on this was to get the minimum base world developed, just the main starting town and a few dungeons and grow from there.  This would allow the world to be shaped as it grows by implementing player decisions, and events.

 

My initial idea for the story is that we start by learning that good failed to beat the evil from the past, so not it is everywhere, and the good people are going to try to reclaim the lands. This would loosely tie to the perpetual server growing concept I mentioned before.

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OK. I have stammered on enough. I just wanted to see if there was any hope to my dream, to see if I could rekindle my love I have for this game, which is free, and doesn’t require micro-transactions (sorry, I did it again).

Please feel free to comment, or discuss. If I get a lot of activity, it may show I have a chance of creating a good PW server. 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BelowTheBelt]

               

Welcome back!  It's good to see your interest in the game rekindled.  NWN stands the test of time and the community of content creators have pushed this game and its engine so hard that I believe it stands up well to anything out there today.

 

First, I'd recommend you Google and install NWNCx - that can restore functionality to your gamespy list so that you can see the servers still active.  There are quite a few still out there. 

 

The short answer to your question is that there is always room for another PW.  The more, the better, I believe.  There are a couple of considerations you should mull over before you embark on this highly-rewarding endeavor, though.  Possibly you've already considered these, but since you've been away for a bit, I'll share some advice:

 

First, building a PW should be something that you're interested in doing, regardless of whether players will play or not.  Building in-and-of itself should be your reward and something you derive enjoyment from.  In today's environment, players can be hard to find and you can quickly become discouraged unless your motivation and satisfaction is internal.  There are  players out there.  Plenty of them.  However, they can be hard to find and the design of your server (e.g. use of haks) can make it more challenging to obtain them.  

 

Secondly, in today's environment it's more important than ever to have a clear understanding about how your server is different than others out there.  This goes beyond just the setting .  Every server has a setting that is slightly different than another.  It goes beyond the mechanics of your game.  Everyone has their own customizations in place.  It is how all of those come together to create something unique and compelling.  "My world is the only place you can find XXX and do YYY."  Once you can clearly define that, focus your efforts on building out those components and making them really robust.  Visit other servers to see how they do things and what they offer to ensure you're really doing something new and different.

 

Thirdly, in today's world, admining a server goes beyond just the building.  Be aware that marketing/awareness-building is a constant necessity.  Customer service will become very important as you recruit players and they have problems.  You'll need a host, server website, forum, possibly creation of haks, etc... 

 

The benefit is that there are plenty community members still here to help you through the process.  And, as the old adage goes, 'The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.'  It all doesn't have to all get done in a day or a week or a month.  Continual improvement and progress towards your destination is what's important.

 

I say go for it and good luck!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Fester Pot]

               

Cormyr Dalelands Project .

 

http://cormyrdalelands.boards.net/

 

It's kind of clique with its older player base, who stick together even when creating new characters, but it's quite populated, 15-25 players on at peak hours. A little more tough for euro players afternoon wise, but is medium to high magic, with plenty of places to explore.

 

Tough on events. Played there for two years and have yet to get any personal attention from a DM. Long standing DMs seem to stick to the clique group, sadly, don't know why. Despite that, I find the player base worth my while, even if DMs don't feel the same.

 

Sigil Planescape Legends.

 

http://sigil-planarlegends.com

 

An old PW brought back that I played on ages ago, and returned to see old faces and players. New character though. No need to build on what happened years ago for the glory. Some there hang on to that.

 

Highly populated and situated in Sigil, with very high magic but an annoying "key" system that requires certain inventory items to access "doors" that allow you to explore other planes of existence. If you like to wander and find tid-bits of places, I'd avoid it, since you need such "keys" to do so, and they cost gold. It's like being in a closet only to find an exit you can't use yet, but I guess that's Sigil.

 

Personally, I like open ended worlds that allow for exploration. Sigil ... uh, not so much.

 

Still, it's creepy with its unique characters and environment.

 

With that said, I'm interested in YeOldeFrog's PW, which you can find the thread in this forum showing screens and information, but it's a low magic world. You know, not finding scale, chain or plate mail in loot drops, where it's very costly to purchase if you'd like it. Armor found might have a -1 to AC due to wear and tear, and experience is earned by exploration, rather than mobs.

 

New PWs breathe creativity and life to the community, and I'm always on the lookout for one.

 

For me, it's low magic, slow experience from exploring new places, surviving risks, and rusty and dusty trinkets that sell for a moderate amount. I'm not interested in +2 gear no one wants because everyone already has it, but that's just my playing preference.

 

Here's a raised mug to your search!

 

FP!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               More creative energy is welcome.


As for your comment on grinding, it surprises me that anyone would accept it as a necessary evil. In my view you should be able to play regardless of level.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               

Building a PW from the ground up ... and then getting it populated with players is not an easy nor a short term feat. If you're willing to spend a year or two building and scripting, while your module grows with but a handful of occassional players, then by all means, go for it.

 

Keep in mind, you have to first build/design your PW based on what -you- desire moreso than what others might want. If it doesn't meet your own preferences in the end, you'll likely just give up infrustration. Pleasing players is great, but pleasing everyone is impossible.

 

Use the server list found here:  http://yourserverlis....php?juego=nwn1  to explore a few existing worlds. Talk to other players directly and see if they share your own vision. You may even find a PW that exists and meets your desires and end up playing instead.

 

I want high variety of area types. I typically break these into three categories, Exploration/Travel areas, Hak’N’Slash Dungeon areas, and Social/RP areas. I think my initial thought on this was to get the minimum base world developed, just the main starting town and a few dungeons and grow from there.  This would allow the world to be shaped as it grows by implementing player decisions, and events.

 

Having my own PW as well as having helped a few others get launched over the years, I've found that despite a great initial startup, players want to in the end ... level up and find great stuffs. Many a PW has withered away or just struggled after an initial surge due to having little or nothing to do beyond a certain level range. RP is great, but even the hard core RPers eventually want to explore and conquer.

 

Good luck in whatever you decide. Keep in mind that many on this site will be glad to help with questions as they arise.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Mad Poet]

               

If you care to try low level worlds then Avernostra might tickle you. We only use levels 1-10, and the whole of the server has less of a High Fantasy, more of a Sword and Sorcery feeling. Certain classes have been changed to reflect that (Paladins are now Witch Hunters, and can be of any lawful alignment), and most of the server is pretty low magic. +1 equipment is considered this servers 'Masterwork', and 'Masterpiece' +2 equipment can only be gained at level 10. +3 tops out the scale as artifact level DM's can give out.

 

We're still fairly new so there is more being built every week. 

 

http://avernostra.boards.net

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zwerkules]

               

More creative energy is welcome.


As for your comment on grinding, it surprises me that anyone would accept it as a necessary evil. In my view you should be able to play regardless of level.

 

Admittedly I haven't tried a lot of PWs, but every time I tried one I left after no more than an hour because all you could do was kill rats or other small monsters or worse: die. You get one beginner quest where all you have to do is return an item to someone and there's not even much of a story behind it, you get a few XP which aren't even enough to get you halfway to level 2 and then all that is left is go to some celler and fight rats which always come in groups of at least three so it's barely possible to fight them as a level one pleyer without dying or you go to a crypt and face zombie which also come in groups, are even harder to kill and after you managed to kill one or even two of three the last one always gets you because your HP are down to 5 and of course you have no healing potions because they cost so much money that you'd have to kill about 100 zombies to even afford one of them.

 

All this grinding is bad enough, but what's even worse is that there are no stories to be found anywhere, especially nothing inventive. Why do you have to kill the rats? Because they are eating the grain. Booooring!

Why do you have to kill the zombies? Because there are a lot of them in the crypts and possibly somebody is raising the dead.

And how does the quest giver know that? Does he usually hang around in crypts because he likes the atmosphere and now the moaning of the zombies gets on his nerves?

 

A lot of PW admins spend so much time on scripting one system or another that they are scripting their PW to death because all those death and loot and spawn systems are not worth a damn if there is nothing interesting going on on their server and grinding really isn't all that entertaining, you know?

 

So grinding is not acceptable, it is no necessary evil. All it is is a good reason to leave the PW and never look back.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_YeoldeFog]

               

Yeah, well for a single player action server I would agree with Zwerkules. But a roleplaying multiplayer PW with creative players and DMs can bring the world to life with events and stories related to the world and the setting.

 

Zwerkules: I'd like to hear a suggestion how to approach experience and loot in another way than grinding? With that said, I am no fan of grinding either and work to minimize it, but I also know it's unavoidable because it all depends on the player!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zwerkules]

               

Yeah, well for a single player action server I would agree with Zwerkules. But a roleplaying multiplayer PW with creative players and DMs can bring the world to life with events and stories related to the world and the setting.

 

Zwerkules: I'd like to hear a suggestion how to approach experience and loot in another way than grinding? With that said, I am no fan of grinding either and work to minimize it, but I also know it's unavoidable because it all depends on the player!

Suggestions:

If there are quests which don't involve fighting creatures which a player can't beat alone and enough of those to get enough XP to get at least past level five there can be some grinding after solving those quests. Let there be some low level creatures for the people who like grinding so they can start with it early if that is how they want to get their XP the others can slove quests and get to know other people on the server so they have someone they can go kill monsters with when it is impossible to kill them alone.

Once you are level five, you can always kill monsters that are easy to kill to get XP, but for a level 1 player it simply is no fun having to fight hordes of monsters alone even if they are only level one themselves. I have yet to see a PW that allows a level one PC to strategically fight lots of monsters by singling one out and killing them one by one so they stand a chance. Lots of people don't even bother to set different spawn points farther away from the encounter trigger and the creatures are 'dropped' right on top of the PC.

 

If you have quests that involve a lot of fighting try to make dynamic quests so players don't just go back to those areas the quest took place in to kill more creatures for more XP after they solved the quest, but because it actually makes sense to solve the quest again because it changes from the way it was the first time it was solved.

 

Most important: A story. If the players have to kill creatures and even have to kill lots of them repeatedly give them a good reason for killing them other than getting loot and more XP.

 

BTW what good is a DM to a new player if there's a DMed event with players who have been on the server for a lot longer and have higher levels? How could a level one player possibly be part of a team of such players? How could a level one player contribute in any way other than saying: Guys, I got killed again, can someone resurrect me?

A DMed event for new players is all well and good but how do you plan to get enough new players to your PW at the same time for such an event?

In my experience level one players are pretty much on their own, so give them something to do that they CAN do alone.

 

Edit: I just wanted to add that I never even tried action servers because I pretty much expected them to have no story whatsoever. All the servers I tried were RP servers. To me a good story is more important than anything else. I can forgive a lot of bad area design, dated custom content and so on if the story draws me into that world and makes me want to be there to have an adventure and see what happens next. So far the only thing that ever happend to me next was that I had to run from A to B to bring object Z to Mr. X asking myself "Y?" or I had to kill some more monsters for no other reason than getting more XP.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_YeoldeFog]

               

Good suggestions!

 

I am currently working on constructing a dungeon without monsters. Think indiana jones and the raiders, intro scene. The encounters shall be in the form of puzzles, traps and skill use. You need to jump over some obstacles, climb a wall, use lore to get a clue to a puzzle or something, and avoid traps. I'm also keen on using skills like intimidate or persuade to get past encounters (and earn the XP similar for killing them).

 

Also, single encounters, let's say a sleeping goblin who guards a tunnel. If he wakes up more goblins will arrive, but as a low level, single player, you need to take him out before he calls for backup.

 

Monsters trying to bash a door to get at you. You need to take them out with ranged weapons before they reach you.

 

Yeah, I agree '>

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Mad Poet]

               

Your right. Grinding down is horribly boring. However I, and many other people, don't enjoy standing around the proverbial tavern and gossiping. Having those dungeons and challenges is part of the game, but definitely not a full experience. Everyone has their own flavor of DnD. Mine has always been high action, low magic, and Heavy Roleplay. I like braving the dangers of the dungeons with my companions discussing tactics, and being afraid to open the door lest we awaken the sleeping horror within. Not chatting in taverns, or baking bread in the kitchen, or romancing that guy who happens to be a Half Elven Necromancer. 

 

To me it's why DM interaction is so pivotal a part of PW management. It's more important than ANYTHING else IMHO. You can have a server with a dozen scripting flaws, poorly made lifeless areas, and three hundred crypts where you can fight zombies and still have a great time providing there is a DM to interact with and help what is there become alive. Single player modules can do this so much easier because you can get the NPC's to say what you want, when you want, and react accordingly. Thus you can build a much more complex environment with storytelling. PW's... well... if you script a quest where a group of the same bandits kidnap the same villagers and take them to the same hideout isn't that just as bad as having no storytelling? Repeatable stories? It's great for the once around, and maybe even twice, but for players who have four or five characters and have done the quest over and over again... well you catch my drift. Single Player modules don't have the same problem of people burning out. Most people play a module what... once? Twice? Five at the most? PW's can have the same player log in for hundreds of hours. That's a lot of time to try and make dynamic through automation.

 

Again... DM Interaction. A DM can change the quest. Repopulate the dungeon to have had a necromancer turn all the bandits into Zombies who have gathered townsfolk to turn them into a flesh golem. They could empty the dungeon and have it that a Dragon moved in and ate all the bandits. 

 

As far as Level 1 woes... well... I agree there should be at least something the squishies can do. It's one of the reasons Avernostra has a simple dynamic delivery quest in place. It's not glamorous, but it pays the XP bills '>  Plus I knew a few servers that started PC's out at level 2. And a number of them that made dungeons specifically for them. The 'Rats in the Cellar' is kind of a classic that I like. They'd make the rats only able to do 1 point of damage, and have a -2 to hit with a 10 AC. Spawn one or two at a time and even a wizard with a dagger and a mage armor spell could feel like a warrior to those odds. Also I know a few servers that give dramatically more XP at level 1 than any other level.

 

Different flavors. I choose Neapolitan.  '>

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

Thanks for all that feedback, Zwerkules. I think its valuable for builders to read this. The take away for me is that its a good idea to give PCs at low levels the ability to level up quickly if they want to so that they can engage more of the content on the server and play with others.

 

My first positive PW experiences with NWN were almost all on the old Vives, and they server was essentially designed so that you could get to level 5 within 8 hours of play if you really wanted to. And then after that the leveling tapers off because the big XP rewards from quests were sparser and harder to get your hands on.

 

The past couple years however I've started thinking about the PW thing differently. The way I look at it is that you log in to a world that has inherent motivations built into the setting for a player to respond to. Leveling up is the standard motivator. As is getting better equipment. So these motivate you to do things for XP, and GP. And so a PW can provide access to these in different ways and it is good to focus on this. BUT you can also change the overall equation. You can add other motivations, or modify it. If the core motivation is advancement. You can create other forms of advancement. And you can also create other resources for PCs to acquire in these alternate advancement paths. And then on top of this you can create new things to do in order to gain these new rewards.

 

Crafting I think was one of these systems that provides another thing to advance in, another means to generate GP and XP, and another reason to explore new areas in search of resources, and overcoming challenges.

 

I particularly liked how Border Kingdoms had made "henchman" the new "level". In BK there was no leveling up. You started at level 8 and that was it for the life of the character. Instead you had other things to advance in, gaining retainers was a huge way that this was represented in game since power dynamics between players was a significant part of the game play.

 

I developed Arnheim in parallel with BK and actually compared notes with Ben/Azador when we tried to recruit each other for our projects. We each had different approaches toward the same goal. My path for better or for worse relies heavily on scripting systems, and so I still haven't finished everything that I need to get my vision out there. BK's path involved almost no scripting (I could script BK's systems in a couple days tops), but relied very heavily on DMs. As I have switched my efforts to a different PW - the remake of Vives - I have shifted my effort to a hybrid of these ways of getting it done. But the goal is the same, to provide systems to indicate levels of influence the PC has within the setting of the PW, and for this influence to have real world affects that can arise in PC versus PC competition (not necessarily combat) along with PC cooperation against aspects of the setting.

 

I mention all that personal drivel because it relates to something Zwerkules said earlier about builders being too focused on systems. I know this was in reference to particular kinds of systems (spawning, and loot), but I think the criticism needs to be tempered should other builders see it and think abandoning a systems approach is the way to go. I think the alternate to building systems is to rely on DMs and to take the extreme view relying on DMs for everything that happens in a PW is a recipe for disaster in my view. I think creating scripted systems which define behavior of the game world even when no other players or DMs are on allows it to keep functioning in interesting ways - well beyond the run around and kill things to take their stuff type of play. It can also alleviate DM burnout. I've put a fair amount of effort over the years into creating tools for players so that they can handle things on their own by interacting with one another. It was the first principal of design I applied to Arnheim because I thought I might release it as a true PW. When Ben/Azador from BK and I were interacting before their official launch we had a fairly long debate one night about this (while logged into Arnheim actually), but he ultimately refused to see my point. I still think that BK failed because the DMs burned out having to micromanage everything. Every player request. Player frustration with not being responded to quickly enough and so on. I think BK would be the most popular server today had Ben had listened to me about providing some systems to get around the tedious day to day requests players can make by giving them tools to handle this stuff themselves. On the flip side however in Azador's favor, they had a brilliant short run on their server. It was really awesome. I didn't like the details of the server (like the area design and lack of any significant scripted systems) but the over all play was fun and novel lending itself to brilliant roleplay.  My project never made it to PW status because I never finished all the systems I needed, and so instead I hosted weekly sessions on a server with way more scripting than it ever needed for what we were actually doing. In fact I am only now getting close to completing much of the scripting that I envisioned years ago, and this on an entirely different project than the original.

 

OK… anyway sorry for the ramble with multiple ideas mixed together. I'll just stop here and see if anyone cares about any of this before talking more.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Mad Poet]

               

My approach is to script things so that the DM doesn't have to be there. Script things so that a DM 'wants' to be there. DM's need to spend their valuable time not doing chores, but making the world alive. No one likes to log in to the DM client to be told about half a dozen 'Can you change the name of my item'. Or 'Is there a way you could Leto this'. If the players are able to do 99% of that themselves your DM's can go one making the world fun instead of pulling people out of stuck areas, or cleaning up after the players mistakes.

 

Another one of my design tricks... if you say "Like in that MMO..." rethink it. If people wanted super action, loot heavy, search the world for crafting and such there are far better places to go than Neverwinter Nights with it's decades old engine and graphics. If people are going to bother with this withered old game for hours on end it's not going to be for the gripping eye catching visuals, Uber-Lewtz, or whatever else. It's going to be for the interaction with others they can't get in MMO's. PW's aren't about being the 'Latest and Greatest'. To me it's about community. 

 

Also provide enough to Players to allow their creativity to spark. DM's can't be present always. Players can be a source of their own fun. In this way I say let the players make the story, and let the DM staff cater to it. Why not? Few people dislike their OWN story.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zwerkules]

               

Just something else to consider: PW builders could learn ALOT from MUDs. MUDs had to rely on text and even without any graphics at all they are still more interesting than the great majority of PWs because they were text based and the writing had to be interesting or nobody would have played them at all. The creativity of quest design in a single MUD is greater than in a dozen PWs together.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kuronue bloodlust]

               

I actually prefer a non PVP environment eater way any really good simple servers out there I can stretch my bats wings in would make me happy.