The Worlds "LARGEST PERSISTENT WORLD"

[Legacy_antirelic]

               Hello Everyone,

How would you like to have access to the "LARGEST PERSISTENT WORLD EVER"???

I'm not just talking about NWN, I'm talking about THE largest persistent gaming environment, ever produced?

How would you like to be in control?

I'd like to introduce you to "NWN Cloud". Overcome the limitations of one of the most awesome games ever made; limitless expansion with minimal resource requirements. Impossible you say? Not at all....

Check this thread out over the next few days for youtube clips showing you just how easy it is to go from 10 zones, to 1000 zones... with little to no scripting ability. Thats right, NO SCRIPTING ABILITY REQUIRED.

Questions? 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Athain]

               Modules have a hard limit of 16,000 resources (this includes areas, scripts, creature and placeable blueprints, everything).

PWs already exist that have not only hit this limit, and have expanded to a plurality of modules to continue to grow.

Beyond just NWN, there are AAA MMORPGs like WoW that have developed huge worlds over 10 years of development, much larger than any NWNPW (WoW's total landmass, for example, is larger than the state of Rhode Island).

And then beyond that, you have Minecraft servers, which have a theoretical infinite size, and some worlds are so large already that they are literally tens of millions of blocks across - sprinting in a straight line, for 48 hours, you still wouldn't go from one end to the other.

You seem to claim you've built a persistent environment larger than any and all of these, in NWN1 - an engine that, frankly, doesn't support that size in any way that can be gracefully implemented.

So I guess I don't believe you.  Can you provide some evidence?

Also -

I'd like to introduce you to "NWN Cloud". Overcome the limitations of
one of the most awesome games ever made; limitless expansion with
minimal resource requirements. Impossible you say? Not at all....

Check
this thread out over the next few days for youtube clips showing you
just how easy it is to go from 10 zones, to 1000 zones... with little to
no scripting ability. Thats right, NO SCRIPTING ABILITY REQUIRED.

Why would you want to do this in the first place?  This is an old-as-hell game.  Areas only look good if they're painstakingly built by hand to actually look good by talented level designers.  I can't speak for everyone, but I would not find it fun or compelling to play on a server that features a thousand auto-generated, ostensibly same-looking areas.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Athain, 14 février 2014 - 09:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_antirelic]

               Thanks for the skepticism, its always healthy.

I'm not building some sort of monstrous machine that creates dull looking randomly generated areas.

What I am building, is a means to seamlessly connect hundreds, even thousands of modules to one persistent world that takes advantage of Cloud technology from vendors such as Amazon and Rackspace. The concept is already in practice, and working, but here is the gist of it;

- Create a module that has the "cloud_includes" file in it.
- Inside that module, create as many objects that you want that will be used to access different modules; each object only requires 1 script onitemused and set 2 variables.
- Load the main module and connect. When your character uses the object, it will trigger an event that would build/turn on an Amazon server that will load the desired module, and connect to the shared Character folder.
- Once the module is available, a green light will shine down on the object, showing the module is ready. The character will seamlessly enter the new module, as he is when he left the other server, because his character sheet is available in both places.
- This allows you to incorporate some of the best available modules from NWNVault with very little effort, to avoid having gigantic fluff modules.
- All modules loaded will have access to the same ODBC, so persistent chests and quest varaibles could follow between modules.

My only problem right now is fixing the broken authentication system in NWN. This is the only thing keeping me from running the core server 24/7. Once I get around to fixing that, I'll provide even more proof.
-
               
               

               

                     Modifié par antirelic, 14 février 2014 - 12:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Baaleos]

               This isnt a PW,
This is environment provisioning, for the purpose of hosting a module.

I've experimented with something similar in the past, where I hosted 'The_Hub'
which was a module that allowed users to add IP Addresses or host names which then went into a database, and then allowed people to travel to those PW's and use 'The Hub' as an airport of sorts.

I've since developed the system to the point where I am creating a website and people can create an account, apply for timeslots, and then upload their module, and resources, and have their module run during those times slots.
Now - the question remains: At the prices that Amazon charge for Linux Servers per hour, is this really viable, and is anyone really going to pay you for a service that they can get cheaper by doing it themselves?
Assuming someone's going to be paying for the provisioning of server environments? Right?

And also - you speak of seamless transitions - but the truth is that amazon servers spinning up takes about 5 minutes for linux, and longer for windows, unless your going for a higher spec server, which costs more.
Lower power = cheaper, but longer boot times.

All modules loaded will have access to the same ODBC, so persistent chests and quest varaibles could follow between modules.

You mention - 'All Modules Loaded':
Where are these coming from, are you basically providing a means for people to network their servers together, or are you suggesting you have created some online Modules that are ready to go.

From the description of the post, it looks like you've posted about an 'already conceived' concept, that is waiting for other people to adopt and use.

Rolo Kipp has been working on a Project called NWN Foundation with a few others, and I think part of that involves networking of servers (he can confirm if he sees this).

I'd just be warey of the way you word your original post.
You were advertising a PW, which is not what you have, you have an include file that you want people to pop in their modules, and then host their own servers.
And no doubt part of this would allow for travel from everyones server to everyones server using nwnx_vaultster or the like?
This would bypass peoples rulesets in their PW.

Conceptually, its a good idea, not unique or original, but a good idea, just need to work on some of the issues of cross server travel, thats why I used an 'airport' type module - to act as a 'customs' area, where server rulesets could be applied to the characters travelling.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_antirelic]

               Hey Baaleos,

Thanks for the reply. I'm not asking anyone to pay me for anything. I'm going to release the controller engine via the Amazon community AMI portal. The only thing I wont include is the NWN binaries, that will be for people to upload on their own.

If you want, I can use a bit more technical jargon for you since you seem to understand some of the provisioning.

1. The database server hosts the "servervault" and the "modules" folder, and shares them via NFS to your Amazon instances.

2. Amazon instances can be pre-provisioned, and powered down, which increases load time, and dramatically reduces costs.

3. The nwn_cloud program that runs externally, monitors the postgresql database and checks for calls from inside the "hub" as you like to call it, and then boots the powered off instances. The nwn_cloud program assigns a module to a provisioned VM.

4. The powered off instances, will look at the database for what module they are to load, and load that module at boot (as well as mount the servervault, and the modules folder over NFS).

5. No hard coding of networking information needs to happen within the "Hub" module. All this information is pulled from the database, which is populated by the nwn_cloud program.

6. When the instance that is powered down is empty, a countdown will begin to shutdown the empty server. When the countdown is complete, the nwn_cloud program will power the server down. This will allow the server to be "reused" for another purpose or module.

7. You don't really even need to use a "hub". You can put module launchers into modules that are also at rest. Because everything is driven by the database, and they are all sharing the same "at rest" severs, launch times will be fairly short going from rested instance to rested instance.

8. And yes, it is a persistent world if you use NWNX to store your in game variables into a persistent database that doesn't shut down. This cost savings can be made in a number of ways if you don't want to host your own DB (such as Amazon's database).

9. This isn't the "airport" style that your talking about and has been done alot. This is meant for people who already run PW, and want to ramp it up by adding in a lot more content without having the problems associated with massive, single modules.

I could write a lecture about cost, but if your hosting your server in your home, on your PC/Mac/Linux box, yup, your always going to be cheaper than anything on the net.

However, if you go apples to apples, where your talking dedicated hosted servers, its much cheaper to make a small "hub" dedicated instance of 10-20 area's that runs on a "reserved" ec2 small or even a micro, and then load any other modules when demanded, that get turned back off when people stop playing in it. This isn't theory or concept, any time you'd like to see it, let me know a rough time and I'll fire it up for a few hours.

It does still need some work, like I said, the auth system needs to get in place, and I'll probably need to update the include/erf to have an object that allows for recall the "hub" server.

Regards
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               I can't wait to see what happens when a player logs in to a low magic world with the +100 sword of doom and all the other gear of uber world x. It should be a perfect combination.
               
               

               
            

[Baaleos]

               Fair enough,
I dont want you to think of me as a hater or anything.
While you have answered the questions raised in the forum post very well, the thing I would possibly raise, as has been mentioned previously, is that this game is ancient.

While some players still love to play this game, it is a fact that the player base is decreasing, despite attempts to rekindle interest.

Your idea, as valid as it may be, could end up falling on deaf ears because of lack of interest in the underlying game.

NWN2 being slightly more recent may garner more attention - that being said - I have never played NWN2 online, so I cant say how accurate this statement is.

Your idea has merit, but I suppose I just feel that it would be better promoted if it was serving a game that the world at large, and the community here, love more, and are likely to partake of.
Unfortunately, I just cant think of what that game may be.
I personally would love a First Person NWN themed Skyrim type world - but thats just my preference.

Basically, while its impressive the amount of work and planning you have put into this, its very probable that very few people will partake of the system, and thats not a reflection on your work, but just on the diminishing community.
               
               

               
            

[Baaleos]

               

SHOVA wrote...

I can't wait to see what happens when a player logs in to a low magic world with the +100 sword of doom and all the other gear of uber world x. It should be a perfect combination.

He has said that the system would be more for Server Admins to spin up areas of their PW when needed, and have them offline when not needed.

Eg: Spanning a PW over multiple servers.

My idea about a HUB / Airport type module (like a space station) would be vulnerable to the +100 sword thing.
But thats where you introduce a customs type ruleset, allowing the receiving server to define rules that the player must meet before being allowed into the server.
Eg: Scan player for items that have value > limit : remove
       Scan for feats disallowed
       Apply Level Limits etc
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_antirelic]

               Yeah, I agree with the game being ancient. Its one of my favorites, and its not so much about trying to rekindle the community as much as it is that I am a very into cloud technology and am always looking at interesting new ways to use it. Even if its on ancient games. lol.

As far as the +100 sword of doom, yeah, i'm sure that could happen if you wanted it to. Its really up to the server admin. Interestingly enough, I've tried something like this with a Shayan Subrace ILR transition, and the character was instantly gimped and unable to equip the +100 sword of doom.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_antirelic]

               If anyone is interested in giving it a go, feel free:

54.84.13.24

Its by no means fleshed out, but it gives you access to a few, very large modules:

- Rhun
- Paramon
- Genisis
- Against the Cult
- Stormlight
- Ascension
- Itropa

I'm going to add in a few more over the weekend, mostly for my own entertainment, since I didn't play alot of great top rated NWNVault content over the years.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Fester Pot]

               Interesting. It's nice to see some discussion about this after all of these years. Sometimes, it's a nice surprise to see new members lighting the NWN candle of imagination and possibilities!

FP!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

antirelic wrote...

54.84.13.24.

No response.

I am very interested about one issue. Does your system allows to log in on a server behind NAT? Would be amazing if it did. If not however, I don't see much of the usage for this, but maybe I just don't understand this which is why I didn't commented yet.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               The challenge of combing worlds (merging them) isn't related to resources. I have a working version of Av3 and LoC3 merged which has over 45k resources (playable due to the beauty of resman). It's the fact that any default, standard resources that were modified by the individual world, then also need to be merged (a huge undertaking if you consider a world like Av3 with 10+ years of community development, and thus 5k plus custom scripts [probably of which about half are modified default resources]).

If you are talking about linking worlds, that is another matter. Then the callange becomes the different things that are allowed, as Shova mentioned above.

The concept of a NWN universe is certainly intriguing. However the logistics I imagine would be a night mare given the wonderful (and still to this day unprecedented) fact that the consumers of this game, us the players and PW developers, have so much freedom to do whatever we like with our worlds (essentially making entirely new games) in combination with sharing it in a multiplayer format.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 15 février 2014 - 03:49 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Good luck though, more power to you!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_antirelic]

               Sorry about the server being offline. I was doing some module updates and forgot to restart the cloud engine. It should be up now, and lists on NWNList Scry (http://www.nwnlist.com/).

54.84.13.24.

Lazarus, I agree with you. The goal of this engine isn't some sort of "utopian" fantasy of uniting all of the world into one bag. Its basically to let teams like "Aventia 3 Merged" combine as much community content as they'd like, without having to impact their existing core content.

I mean, wouldn't it be cool to take some of the top rated modules in the NWNVault, and make them available to your players without having to completely merge them into your core PW module? This is a great solution for those long lived PW that do not want to mess up their core content.

Shadow: The short answer is "no" these servers are not behind a NAT firewall, nor are they inside an Amazon VPC. They are accessible from anywhere during their boot, and the IP of the modules get listed on NWNList.