Economics, money, and loot

[Legacy_Terrorble]

                 Our PW starts you with next to nothing, you continue with next to nothing for a bit (unless given stuff), and before long have so much extra junk to sell that money is no longer an issue.  In our non-rp, action setting, this works, but I'd like hear if others do anything to maintain the integrity of their economy - systems or strategies that keep gold inflation in check, or make having/obtaining gold a fun part of the game.

T
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Have no idea if this will be useful, as it is meant for MMO designs, but perhaps it can help:

http://www.gamasutra...mos_faucets.php
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Terrorble]

               Actually, that hit the mark.  Thanks for that.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Terrorble wrote...

Actually, that hit the mark. Thanks for that.

Good to hear it! Maybe the first article in that series would be useful, too:


http://www.gamasutra...gs_fairness.php
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Failed.Bard]

               I opted in part to keep gold in check in my server through gold weight, 1 pound per 100 coins.  Sure, a character could still carry around a million gold if they wanted to, but it wouldn't be very fast when they did.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <the old wizard juggles a few glowing gems>

Failed.bard: good for personal limits (I use that as well). I will also (in progress) give spellbooks weight and make them stealable, the higher level spell, the more pages... Jewels weigh much less and hold higher value.  Then again, they also attract attention...

I also use the soft-limit system of a very active thieves guild... Depending on where the PC goes (and isn't the greatest adventure always in the most dangerous areas?), he stands a greater or lesser chance of being pick-pocketed, robbed, burglarized, etc. The more value he carries, the more skilled and numerous the "harvesters" that the guild will send. He wins some, he loses a lot :-)

Along similar lines, high-magic items are not prohibited on Amethyst, but there is a powerful religious order that believes they are created for use in the day of the gods final battle.  I.e. they collect (aggressively) any non-heirloom artifact of more than minor potency.

However, I disagree with starting players with almost nothing. Always have.  Maverick that way, I guess.  My players start with an entire support structure - family, friends, rivals, enemies, etc.  I embed players in the world.  Of course, none of them are ever satisfied with being the 3rd son of a yeoman farmer, or the overprotected only daughter of a briarmage...

*Really* good seeing you again, El... :-)

<frowns when he realizes the jewels are only glamoured glass>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Hey T,
Aventia 3 has struggled with this some, but we have found ways around it. Daily necessities (heals, rezes, ect) cost gold, and extra luxuries (purchasing high end summons, or other goodies) cost more. We also have a persistant store (2 actually) which resells low and high end loot that is thrown in the loot divider. There are other little things like that, that keep our meger economy afloat. I have seen on PoA they have an automated auction system too which I thought was a really neat feature. One of the biggest things that has helped Av is aquiring quest gear comes with a hefty gold cost. Players can farm about 1 mil gold in 30 min or less (really high lvl players [100+} can do it in 10-20 min), but the quest item (and dm services) purchases coming at an additional hefty GP cost helped to offset this. Over all though I think it is usually alot of little things put together that keep an economy viable in a PW, every additional feature that costs gold adds to gold's value.
Laz
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 29 juillet 2011 - 07:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Terrorble]

               Those articles are good. I half figured they'd be packed with content-less fluff, but I was wrong. The perspective of balancing faucets and sinks makes it easy to see where a module's economy starts to fall apart.

I asked originally because of a module idea I've been tinkering with. In it, players are part of a small frontier settlement, trying to forge a life in a hostile area. Players work for the success of the settlement by doing quests, and donating loot or gold. The player(s) can defend the settlement themselves, but may require help, or not want to be recalled from what they are doing to defend it. The settlement can produce guards at a cost to its resource pool, and if it runs dry, will be pillaged... and I have ideas about how to incentivize players to want to avoid this from happening..

I think I might tie the ability of the settlement to procure sufficient healing supplies, food for resting, and new gear to their resources as well (trade). So, until players are big enough to travel abroad on their own, they must contribute to the fledgling settlement as they depend on it for necessities. After that, maybe the settlement will be basically self-sufficient and higher level players will be involved more in the epic side of the story.

This design makes a nice, un-artificial sink to balance the unending loot faucet, but according to the article, players will eventually become ridiculously rich in a gear-based world. Maybe that's where I limit merchant buy prices and gold, put hefty costs on powerful stuff, and have stiff respawn penalties on gold, or just rob them (that's an interesting approach Rolo. It seems so natural that the more you have, the bigger the target on your back gets)
Of course, I may not ever have enough time to make this ever happen, but I guess that's where Laz's sig comes in.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Terrorble, 31 juillet 2011 - 01:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               Just to note, while I enjoy playing in balanced worlds, I dislike economics. For myself, I like such matters to remain behind the curtain. As I struggle with finances enough in RL, I prefer not to engage such matters directly in play.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <nods sagely and tries to look wise>

Very good point, oh ancient one.  However, the effort of putting in a 1) non-laggy and 2) a not-in-your-face economy (and ecology) give game-play a solid sense of under-lying rules that can be learned and used... a meta-game for players.

The same idea flows into other things, like back-story and a logical structure to magic and religion.
Even a consistency of naming conventions localized to cities or regions just makes games feel deeper and richer.

I like what T is trying to do, but, yes, it has to be unobtrusive to really work. Not easy :-P

Oh, one other suggestion for T. Providing spawned guards is a good way to devalue combat as the main adventure past-time.  
I encourage that :-) At least in story-driven mods.
Along similar lines, I have wandering bands of defenders (Wolfen in the Forrestal mod) who jump in to lend a hand at the last minute, should PCs find themself with 1) hp under 10% and out-numbered by remaining hostiles 2:1 (CR).

<...and nods off to sleep>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Terrorble]

               Thanks for the tips.  I certainly don't want it to be a chore.  There may be a fine line between that and an engaging system.

My goals are to have players heavily involved from the start, doing things that are important for the settlement (as its success and player progress are intertwined).  Of course, I want players well informed about where to go, what to do, and never wandering about lost (like most mods are designed to do), but I'd like to incorporate a real sense of urgency (which most mods I've played do not do).

To do that, I want to steal the concept of real-time strategy games, without having to create farmers/miners/lumberjacks/herders etc.  The module heartbeat will track what resource areas are controlled by the settlement at intervals and add resources at each interval.  It will also trigger events (randomly based on rolls and other things), and deduct resources if bandits are not driven off, if wolves kill livestock, if hobgoblins/orcs/goblins kill farmers and guards, repair costs, etc.  The settlement does poorly on its own, but the players can contribute in the form of defense, donating better gear for guards, gold so they can trade with the nomads or buy raw materials for supplies, or to make up for other deficiencies, establishing relations with allies, killing the orc leader, etc.  Quests are all based in this economic situation.

Done right, it will have some fun elements of a real-time strategy game.  The problem, and what the articles help me see, is that doing this in a PW setup can break the system since there are not finite resources, or at least not in the setup I was envisioning.  But, I already have a few ideas brewing for how to involve higher level player resources elsewhere, and create some sinks to balance the faucets.

So, definitely some hurdles to be dealt with.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <musing and meandering>

A thought. You want to give the players options in play-style, but you want a community that fares (poorly) regardless of choice... Hmmm, what about giving certain NPCs optional "Jobs" via the ambient system and having the player negotiate to take over leadership in his preferred style...

I.e. Skeaver the Reaver, being hopeless for anything but mad charges to the front, might tell Sargent Schmidt that he'll guard the pass, thus freeing Schmidt to return to his favorite pastime - Pastry Chef.  Meanwhile, Nicholas Gently quietly sends Yeoman Yvette back to the farm and takes over patrolling the dark and deep woods to the south... Thus the jobs are filled either by NPCs (poorly) or PCs (very efficiently and enthusiastically!), Yvette putting grain resources into the granary and Schmidt putting food (what he doesn't eat) into the store... while the more adventurous chores (oxymoron?) are performed by those players who prefer them.

Whaddaya think?

<rambles off randomly>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               

Rolo Kipp wrote...

<musing and meandering>

A thought. You want to give the players options in play-style, but you want a community that fares (poorly) regardless of choice... Hmmm, what about giving certain NPCs optional "Jobs" via the ambient system and having the player negotiate to take over leadership in his preferred style...

I.e. Skeaver the Reaver, being hopeless for anything but mad charges to the front, might tell Sargent Schmidt that he'll guard the pass, thus freeing Schmidt to return to his favorite pastime - Pastry Chef. Meanwhile, Nicholas Gently quietly sends Yeoman Yvette back to the farm and takes over patrolling the dark and deep woods to the south... Thus the jobs are filled either by NPCs (poorly) or PCs (very efficiently and enthusiastically!), Yvette putting grain resources into the granary and Schmidt putting food (what he doesn't eat) into the store... while the more adventurous chores (oxymoron?) are performed by those players who prefer them.

Whaddaya think?

<rambles off randomly>

Sounds sim to what SWTOR will be doing with companions and crafting. Give their forums and trailers a view for info.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <looks at SWTOR and sighs>

Elhanan wrote...

Rolo Kipp wrote...

A thought. You want to give the players options in play-style, but you want a community that fares (poorly) regardless of choice... Hmmm, what about giving certain NPCs optional "Jobs" via the ambient system and having the player negotiate to take over leadership in his preferred style...

Sounds sim to what SWTOR will be doing with companions and crafting. Give their forums and trailers a view for info.

I'd like to have an original thought that actually turns out to be original, sometime... :-(

<kinda tears up a little in self-pity>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               ^ Just remember Mr Amethyst: grape minds think alike!


               
               

               

                     Modifié par Elhanan, 03 août 2011 - 01:48 .