Persistent World Griefers

[Baaleos]

               Question -
Totems and Teaparties  -  Was it your intention to say in your first post in this thread, how to hack server side characters?

On the idea of a shared ban list.
I worked on a similar project a while back.

Basically it was a Opt in website scheme, that had a central mySQL database, which was pooled every 20 minutes via php script, which then sent the updated ban list down to all the opted in servers via mysql/php.

The result was, that all the servers shared a central ban list, that was automated in that it would update the nwnx database with the banned cdkeys and user accounts etc


I abandonned the project as it involved alot of stuff that, while easy to set up for myself, was not so easy to setup for other people.

eg - You need to create a User Account which has insert/update/delete rights on a single table in your mysql database, that would be used by the external/central website, to download the list of bans into your own database and not everyone knows how to do that.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FelSeero]

               So yea after reading this entire post...for the most part I'm just confused as to how a game has caused so much resentment between people. Since when was NWN so damn dangerous, serious and paranoid? I'm always willing to help and join in the conversation, and perhaps I simply don't understand alot of the terminology, but I don't think its worth it when it looks to me like the people posting here are all caring members of the community. Which I think that NWN is. I'd like to find out more if somone would like to translate this monster of a post into a simple broken down statement.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

FireWraith wrote...

I sort of hope they are reading it.  Can they be blocked?  Absolutely.  Are there ways for them to try and do more?  Sure, there's lots of ways to cause trouble on the internet - though you tend to cross into violations of your contract with your ISP, not to mention illegal actions that, with sufficient evidence, can land people in serious legal trouble.  It's entirely possible for people to find themselves disconnected from the internet entirely, or meeting up with the nice men in suits.

Can you get away with it against someone who's just hosting from their home computer with no real knowledge of how to deal with this stuff?  Probably.  Are some of these servers hosted elsewhere, at places that take hostile activity very seriously - and I don't just mean logging in to try and PVP players, we're talking denial of service, account or identity theft, unauthorized access to a system, et cetera - Yes, there are.   Even something like accessing someone else's Gmail account by guessing their password reset questions is a Federal Felony, and there are people in prison because of it.

Good luck with that.

You admins and player from these HCRP persistent worlds are take it too seriously when this is just a game. And because if it, they can gain a pleasure from pissing you off, saying BSs like this and giving them fame and attention which is what they got from it. I used to do it too, I liked the playing with server's staff and show them they can't fight with me and I enjoyed it because they took it too seriously, they believed they are something more than rest of us, though they weren't.

Now I don't do that anymore and I am working on my own PW and I can tell you, that they wouldn't be interested in griefing on my module at all since I have no rules, players can do what they want, if they willing to accept consequences. So you will PK low level characters? OK, so we delevel you, so your victims could do this to you too, etc.
+ since I know how to cheat I also know how to prevent it, so none of their voodoo would work.


I mean, tell peoples they mustn't do this, that and that and a whole list of restriction and there will be always someone who do this, because you just told him how he can ****** you off, tell the childerns to not to lick the frozen stair-rail and they will do it. Just to try it what happens, just for fun or because they got bored.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 16 mars 2011 - 03:27 .
                     
                  

            

[Baaleos]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

FireWraith wrote...

I sort of hope they are reading it. Can they be blocked? Absolutely. Are there ways for them to try and do more? Sure, there's lots of ways to cause trouble on the internet - though you tend to cross into violations of your contract with your ISP, not to mention illegal actions that, with sufficient evidence, can land people in serious legal trouble. It's entirely possible for people to find themselves disconnected from the internet entirely, or meeting up with the nice men in suits.

Can you get away with it against someone who's just hosting from their home computer with no real knowledge of how to deal with this stuff? Probably. Are some of these servers hosted elsewhere, at places that take hostile activity very seriously - and I don't just mean logging in to try and PVP players, we're talking denial of service, account or identity theft, unauthorized access to a system, et cetera - Yes, there are.  Even something like accessing someone else's Gmail account by guessing their password reset questions is a Federal Felony, and there are people in prison because of it.

Good luck with that.

You admins and player from these HCRP persistent worlds are take it too seriously when this is just a game. And because if it, they can gain a pleasure from pissing you off, saying BSs like this and giving them fame and attention which is what they got from it. I used to do it too, I liked the playing with server's staff and show them they can't fight with me and I enjoyed it because they took it too seriously, they believed they are something more than rest of us, though they weren't.

Now I don't do that anymore and I am working on my own PW and I can tell you, that they wouldn't be interested in griefing on my module at all since I have no rules, players can do what they want, if they willing to accept consequences. So you will PK low level characters? OK, so we delevel you, so your victims could do this to you too, etc.
+ since I know how to cheat I also know how to prevent it, so none of their voodoo would work.


I mean, tell peoples they mustn't do this, that and that and a whole list of restriction and there will be always someone who do this, because you just told him how he can ****** you off, tell the childerns to not to lick the frozen stair-rail and they will do it. Just to try it what happens, just for fun or because they got bored.

Hear Hear @ ShaDoOoW

I fully agree,
Everyone getting their knickers in a bunch over game servers etc, is very petty, and especially when the game is meant to be about coming together to play.
Not banding together to fight other servers.

I know a server that has poorly designed areas, laggy areas etc, that caused clients to crash and disconnect,
and the area designer/artist as she calls herself, used to tell people
"You need to tinker with settings on your graphics card to get rid of the lag"

When players didnt like this, she and the Server Admin came up with a story that their server was under attack from another rival server, and that it was suffering lag as result of DOS Attacks.

After a Month of this story, and telling her players that the FBI were involved and tracking the perps down, it was revealed that she had a dodgy router and the Server returned to a somewhat less laggy state, never the less, clients still crash when entering that badly designed area.

This is an example of
Server A tries to mitigate their own Short Comings by Blaming Scapegoat B.

Lets not forget that Servers Run Modules.
Modules by the very definition of the name, are independant, and modular components.

One server should not be suffering by consequence of another server, I would never try to blame my own population problems on another server.
Im too laid back for that,
Its only a game after all.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               

Baaleos wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

FireWraith wrote...

I sort of hope they are reading it. Can they be blocked? Absolutely. Are there ways for them to try and do more? Sure, there's lots of ways to cause trouble on the internet - though you tend to cross into violations of your contract with your ISP, not to mention illegal actions that, with sufficient evidence, can land people in serious legal trouble. It's entirely possible for people to find themselves disconnected from the internet entirely, or meeting up with the nice men in suits.

Can you get away with it against someone who's just hosting from their home computer with no real knowledge of how to deal with this stuff? Probably. Are some of these servers hosted elsewhere, at places that take hostile activity very seriously - and I don't just mean logging in to try and PVP players, we're talking denial of service, account or identity theft, unauthorized access to a system, et cetera - Yes, there are.  Even something like accessing someone else's Gmail account by guessing their password reset questions is a Federal Felony, and there are people in prison because of it.

Good luck with that.

You admins and player from these HCRP persistent worlds are take it too seriously when this is just a game. And because if it, they can gain a pleasure from pissing you off, saying BSs like this and giving them fame and attention which is what they got from it. I used to do it too, I liked the playing with server's staff and show them they can't fight with me and I enjoyed it because they took it too seriously, they believed they are something more than rest of us, though they weren't.

Now I don't do that anymore and I am working on my own PW and I can tell you, that they wouldn't be interested in griefing on my module at all since I have no rules, players can do what they want, if they willing to accept consequences. So you will PK low level characters? OK, so we delevel you, so your victims could do this to you too, etc.
+ since I know how to cheat I also know how to prevent it, so none of their voodoo would work.


I mean, tell peoples they mustn't do this, that and that and a whole list of restriction and there will be always someone who do this, because you just told him how he can ****** you off, tell the childerns to not to lick the frozen stair-rail and they will do it. Just to try it what happens, just for fun or because they got bored.

Hear Hear @ ShaDoOoW

I fully agree,
Everyone getting their knickers in a bunch over game servers etc, is very petty, and especially when the game is meant to be about coming together to play.
Not banding together to fight other servers.

I know a server that has poorly designed areas, laggy areas etc, that caused clients to crash and disconnect,
and the area designer/artist as she calls herself, used to tell people
"You need to tinker with settings on your graphics card to get rid of the lag"

When players didnt like this, she and the Server Admin came up with a story that their server was under attack from another rival server, and that it was suffering lag as result of DOS Attacks.

After a Month of this story, and telling her players that the FBI were involved and tracking the perps down, it was revealed that she had a dodgy router and the Server returned to a somewhat less laggy state, never the less, clients still crash when entering that badly designed area.

This is an example of
Server A tries to mitigate their own Short Comings by Blaming Scapegoat B.

Lets not forget that Servers Run Modules.
Modules by the very definition of the name, are independant, and modular components.

One server should not be suffering by consequence of another server, I would never try to blame my own population problems on another server.
Im too laid back for that,
Its only a game after all.

Neither of your post has anything to do with what we are discussing. No one is blaming another server at all. All servers are actually welcome to join in this. We have now 12 servers involved because this a small group of people looking to knock other servers offline for the fun of it. Not to make thier servers better as they have no server. it is just about logging in and destroying other people's toons for the fun of it.

Please do not confuse the issue. None of the servers involved have ever claimed the FBI are involved (funny btw) or anything of the sorts. This is purely and simply stopping some cyber bullying from some very small minded individuals who like to quote Mein Kampf of all things.

Does it offend me that they do quote this? Not really as anyone who follows a warped crossdressing fool like Adolf deserves to be pitied rather than hated. Being of Jewish faith I am more inclinded to think wow...what a fool rather than ever get angry.
               
               

               
            

[Baaleos]

               Actually @ TSMDude
Your right,
I got my threads mixed up.

First one about Inflated PlayerLists
and this one.
My Bad.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Calvinthesneak]

               Harassment of people and servers is not something anyone should have to stand for.  Inflating player counts as pointed out in the other thread is their own problem, servers should do something about griefers though
               
               

               
            

[Baaleos]

               I agree on that note.
I count Griefers as people who do the hacking of their stats etc, and causing servers to crash.

In my old PW, I had to make a nwnscript solution that could detect hacked characters and ban them.

The time invested in it, could have been invested better, but it was necessary because there are griefers about.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Starbridge]

               I am getting the same band of retards on my server.  Going to try a few clever scripts to see if I cant fix it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               

Baaleos wrote...

Actually @ TSMDude
Your right,
I got my threads mixed up.

First one about Inflated PlayerLists
and this one.
My Bad.

No worries.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Fellanor]

               Well, shattered. Apparently griefing is now a non-issue, because Tarmack isn't aware of any Gamespy/Bioware rules that it breaks, and because it can be accomplished by logging onto NWN. May as well lock this thread. Sure, griefing is lame, but it's not illegal.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zanzibarr]

               

Well, shattered. Apparently griefing is now a non-issue, because Tarmack isn't aware of any Gamespy/Bioware rules that it breaks, and because it can be accomplished by logging onto NWN. May as well lock this thread. Sure, griefing is lame, but it's not illegal.

Haha, I think you forgot to add:

"People who are griefed can just log off and move on when they discover they've been griefed."
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               

Fellanor wrote...

Well, shattered. Apparently griefing is now a non-issue, because Tarmack isn't aware of any Gamespy/Bioware rules that it breaks, and because it can be accomplished by logging onto NWN. May as well lock this thread. Sure, griefing is lame, but it's not illegal.

What he actualy said was:

Tarmack wrote...
While inflating server numbers to look more popular is lame, I'm not aware of any rules it breaks (logging in multiple clients on one machine would certainly accomplish this without any alteration of code). The people who may log in to a server with inflated numbers will certainly discover that it is empty and move on. It's a non-issue.

This thread however breaches #2 and #3 basic rules of these forums.
http://social.biowar...page/site-rules

Please re-read them, and please do not recreate this thread.

Good Gaming

Note: he said nothing at all about griefing.
However, I will say, and probably most server admins will agree, that Bio, and Gamespy won't do much to stop griefing, even when it is reported. The reason being, It is the individual servers call on what is, or is not allowed, and the servers host to enforce it if nessissary. hence the boot, and ban feature of NWN server. I know all these different terms in NWN can be confusing, but fudging the player count is not griefing. Cheating by itself is also not griefing, although, cheating can be a part of the griefing, but it is not required to be a griefer. Grief play, tends to do one thing, make other players, and server staff, miserable. Whether the griefer logs in and kills everyone, or just logs in and shouts that this server sux. there are a multiple ways to stop griefers, but for the most part, griefers tend to migrate quickly.

One way to handle the player killing part, and no it won't work for all servers, but may work for some:
only allow PVP in arena areas. everywhere, else, teleport the player killer to a prison cell. give them a nice heavy non droppable rock to carry, and have the enter script check for it, to resend them back after resets. While it does not stop them from making more characters, eventualy they will grow tired of making new characters.

Another option, let your regulars make level 40 super PCs. edit the crap out of them with leto.When a griefer comes in, have them all log out, and back in with their super. 1 griefer against a server of supers will let them know that your server is not interested, in how they play.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN DM]

               Tarmack also said to not recreate the thread, which, restarting the discussion here would appear to be potentially happening.

The NWN and NWN2 boards need a few more Moderators.  I've offered my services as a 10+ year member of the community, but BioWare isn't interested apparently.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Evelath]

                To get back on track...

What are some potential fixes (aside from banning tons of CD-Keys) could potentially work?

For RP Servers:

* A fix I've seen is simply creating a 'portal' once you're in-game that checks all of the players stats.  If a player has 3 stat lines that are single digit amounts (normally INT, WIS, and CHA @ , simply restrict them from entering the World.  Legitimately no character could survive very long in a dangerous world with those stat-lines, therefore those characters should require DM approval, similar to how many places require approval for PRCs or Subraces.

Any others thoughts?