Persistent World Griefers

[Legacy_FunkySwerve]

               

The point is that they don't even require 'standing up' to. Just a few scripts to auto-boot edited 2da characters and items. As long as they keep getting 6-page threads about them, especially where ham-fisted histrionics ensue, they aren't going to stop. 

I think you're confusing some of the people posting in this thread as 'RP Community' members rather than the griefers themselves. As to the notion that nothing productive can come of it, I've already distributed additional crash protection as a result of this thread having drawn my attention.

I am also sure that none of them will ever be prosecuted for any sort of criminal behaviour, for a multitude of reasons already stated. For example, I doubt the Kingdom of Belgium is going to extradite merselpath(sp?) to the United States because he crashed a game executable.

There's where you're wrong. You're absolutely correct that Belgium isn't going to extradite for this - computer crime wasn't covered in the 1902 treaty. '> The point I was making there was in response to the 'irrelavence' of American law in general, not the risk of prosecution to that particular individual.  Interpol, on the other hand...

US-based hackers, by contrast, are a completely different ball of yarn. People have, as I've already indicated, been prosecuted under 1030 just for accessing someone's wifi router without permission in order to access the internet. Given the recent uptick in hacking both here and abroad, the feds are all the more interested in prosecuting this kind of malicious behavior. If knowing that gives some of these idiots pause, you can bet I'm going to tell them as much. I've even offered to help the admins take the necessary steps to get the ball rolling.

Funky
               
               

               

                     Modifié par FunkySwerve, 04 juin 2011 - 06:24 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               

Azador wrote...

 Just a few scripts to auto-boot edited 2da characters and items. As long as they keep getting 6-page threads about them, especially where ham-fisted histrionics ensue, they aren't going to stop. 

They're immature idiots, as you said, and should be handled as such.

On the attacks it is not as simple as you think since many of the folks involved in preventing them are in fact not hack scripters like myself but actual scripters. One of the griefers (and really only one of them) has some knowledge. In fact you could ban me on your server Azador but I could easily still log in and as a player I have enough knowledge to use systems you have in your module as a DM.

Even with you banning me or scanning my 2das.  


Several of the griefers are in fact the same ones throwing the mud to tell you the truth behind fake names. You will notice the same folks defending Quilvers view all joined the same day with in hours of one another to "stick" together.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FunkySwerve]

               

PurpleDragonKnight wrote...

Well said, Quilver. It sickens me how some Americans can be so ignorant. I doubt that he studied law at all though, because if he did, then he would know that legal systems vary from country to country. That must be one of the first things you learn, even in primary school.

If you want to disguise the fact that you're one of the griefers in question, you would do well to make arguments less transparently stupid than this. As you say, even children are aware of the existence of differing legal regimes. Adults, by contrast, are also aware of the various international agreements and agencies that have arisen over the centuries in order to foster cooperation between those varying regimes. I guess we know which camp you fall into. '>

Funky
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Azador wrote...

Anyway, all that aside, all I see is the roleplaying community turning on themselves in a thread meant to be discussing the PW 'greifers.' Enough, seriously. There's only one group getting any entertainment out of this thread, and it's the 'greifers' themselves.

Exactly. Good morning FunkySwerve you just have been griefed.:innocent:
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 04 juin 2011 - 06:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
Exactly. Good morning FunkySwerve you just have been griefed.:innocent:

And apprently thier aredent supporter in Shadow....tell me Shadow why you would support the actions of these folks?  It shows a very lack of character for someone who tries to make something for the Community, links it in his signature, and then supports a few fellows bent on destroying the NWN Community? I am not asking in jest but wondering why you would stoop to a level like this.

I understand Azador's response but more so because he does not know the full situation.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

TSMDude wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...
Exactly. Good morning FunkySwerve you just have been griefed.:innocent:

And apprently thier aredent supporter in Shadow....tell me Shadow why you would support the actions of these folks?  It shows a very lack of character for someone who tries to make something for the Community, links it in his signature, and then supports a few fellows bent on destroying the NWN Community? I am not asking in jest but wondering why you would stoop to a level like this.

I understand Azador's response but more so because he does not know the full situation.

hell no I do not support them:whistle:, Im not connected to them in any way. Im just pointing that you are not going to get rid of them by the "law spooking" etc. They are apparently not childers where this tactic would worked. The more you discussing this the more fun they are have from it, they need attention and they got it from you. I dont have any better option though, the crashing server is something I really dont agree with (though myself have not problem with the ingame griefing as im not roleplayer).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...
hell no I do not support them:whistle:, Im not connected to them in any way. Im just pointing that you are not going to get rid of them by the "law spooking" etc. They are apparently not childers where this tactic would worked. The more you discussing this the more fun they are have from it, they need attention and they got it from you. I dont have any better option though, the crashing server is something I really dont agree with (though myself have not problem with the ingame griefing as im not roleplayer).

With most folks I would just assume they know that the whistling icon right after a statement means they are saying it but actually lying....you do know that right?


A better option is not giving them what looks like your full support. Then the mention of you not being a role player when this started by the way on Social Servers then moved out into the RP PWs means it effects the NWN Community. Kinda like the old poem about standing up but here will change a few words for you.

First they came for the Social Servers, and I did not speak out—because I was not a social PW;
Then they came for the RPers, and I did not speak out—because I was not a RPer;
Then they came for the server forums, and I did not speak out—because I was not a forum admin;
Then they came for the action servers, and I did not speak out—because I was not a Admin;
Then they came for my NWN Community—and there was no one left to speak out for us.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FunkySwerve]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Azador wrote...

Anyway, all that aside, all I see is the roleplaying community turning on themselves in a thread meant to be discussing the PW 'greifers.' Enough, seriously. There's only one group getting any entertainment out of this thread, and it's the 'greifers' themselves.

Exactly. Good morning FunkySwerve you just have been griefed.:innocent:

Are you reading the same thread? There aren't any rp'ers turning on themselves here, just a few idiot griefers making a spectacle of themselves. In fact, these griefers managed to inspire the largest COMING TOGETHER of server admins since I set up an anti-exploiting listerv some 5 or 6 years ago (larger, even, come to think of it). If you don't think spamming this thread with nonsense directed at the people smacking them down is supporting them, exactly what WOULD you call it? A few choice phrases come to mind, sadly not ones in compliance with the code of conduct. '>

Funky
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Baragg]

               

Quilver wrote...

Oh and also, your understanding of British universities is nil. The best law degrees here are from universities like Oxford and Cambridge. I got mine from one of the best - UCL. Again, try to think outside your own margins. The educational system in Britain is entirely different to the one in America. 'University' means something different in your country. Get over it, and try to empathise with other cultures.

K, hmmmm, I just started at a University. What is the difference? It would seem to me the University there should be quite similar to those here in Texas.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Baragg, 05 juin 2011 - 12:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zanzibarr]

               No, Funky, you really do need to be careful about libel and slander. Example:

An crazy old dude living near here once became so convinced that his neighbour was a paedophile, that he made a website warning others of him. What happened? The guy wasn't a paedo, just a bit of a weirdo. He sued. The old dude had to pay €120,000 in damages. He now lives in a tent.

In this case, the griefer's actual name hasn't been revealed, so I don't think there is too much to worry about. But I can perfectly understand people warning y'all to be careful. It is usually progressive. Right now, you are just making some casual accusations against a username, but you could find out his full name, location, etc, and you could be tempted to exaggerate what he has done. If you then say that this person has hacked or DDoSed you, and he hasn't, then he would be entitled to sue you for slander.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Merselpath]

               I am Merselpath, head of the organisation commonly known as the NWN Greifers. I am not here to argue with anyone, but to take part in a conversation. Most of us griefers are reasonable people. There are some NWN players who I do not understand, and they do not understand me, and that's just the way it is.

I am perfectly happy to give you some information about our organisation. We are always looking for new recruits too.

We are a small group. At our peak, we had about 6 active griefers. I have always been our most active member. At the moment, we are going through a quiet phase. The months of January to April were extremely productive. We have griefed a range of NWN servers, hitting some very hard. On each of Ravenloft, Arelith, Amia and FRC, we have killed around 200 characters.

I would like to make it clear that we only 'attack' within the game, and never outside of the game. We log on and kill people, which is what the game intended us to do. We never engage in illegal activities, like hacking servers.

Clearly, we do know some 'tricks' to make ourselves very powerful in the game-world. These exploits exist because NWN was made as a very customizable game. We do not use external programs, as some have suggested. As far as I am aware, no such programs exist. All of our work is original. There are many ways that one can tinker with the game. It obviously isn't in my interests to reveal here exactly what method we use. Some servers have protected against particular methods, but we are frequently discovering new techniques. There is really a lot that one can do with NWN.

I have received numerous threats. The folks on FRC apparently wanted to find me and break my legs and arms. Others just wanted to smash my house up. The harsh reality, however, is that most of the people making these threats are angry nerds who probably step outside the confines of their mom's basement very infrequently. A lot of people are addicted to NWN. If anything, we are helping those people, by showing them that they are pursuing an addiction which they can't even control.

I myself used to RP on NWN quite obsessively, and I look back on that period with shame. I was playing at least 6 hours every day. Now, I spend about 2 hours a day griefing. I still consider it to be a slightly unhealthy habit, but it provides me with some quick fun. I do it because I enjoy it. I view it as a hobby. A lot of players tell me, after I've killed their character, that I have no life. But hey, they are devoting their own life to a fantasy world. So... *shrugs*

I would like to point out that scare-mongering does not affect us. We have enough experience with the internet, that we know when someone is BSing. Here's an anecdote:

I unleashed a Hellball on Kymlun a few weeks ago, killing several characters, and the admin (Glortor) sent me a tell: "Tomorrow your internet connection will be terminated. Your ISP is cancelling your contract for breaking their terms and conditions, and blah blah blah..."

It was quite a long and serious tell, and I felt very sorry for him at that moment, that he had felt the need to make up such an elaborate lie. I suppose he thought that it would give me a short-term fright (until the next day, when I realised that my internet connection was still there...). I notified my ISP that this particular internet user had lied about them telling him something which they hadn't.

My ISP are decent and fair. I would never do something illegal with my computer, but if I ever did accidentally do something illegal, then they would notify me of it, and I would make sure that it didn't happen again. They do not use tribal tactics like NWN players. As far as I am aware, they view games as games. Some people get unnecessarily angry about the game that they are playing. We move on.

As for DDoS and all that: Total nonsense. If I had actually hacked into a system, then my ISP certainly would have suspended me. NWN modules can be crashed. They sometimes crash on their own accord, and they are sometimes triggered by players. There are a few ways in which this can be done, and players have been doing it for 9 years. I will not say any more about that, but rest assured: I do not hack. I do not DDoS. I exploit features within the game which is called Neverwinter Nights.

I haven't read every post in this thread, but some posters have said stuff along the lines of: Don't take yourselves so seriously. I recommend that everyone listens to them. If NWN is causing you to get stressed out, then take a break. Step outside. People get worked up over games, and it is ultimately because you can't control everything that happens in them - even if you want to. That's just the nature of multiplayer games.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Merselpath, 05 juin 2011 - 03:00 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_FunkySwerve]

               

Zanzibarr wrote...

No, Funky, you really do need to be careful about libel and slander. Example:

An crazy old dude living near here once became so convinced that his neighbour was a paedophile, that he made a website warning others of him. What happened? The guy wasn't a paedo, just a bit of a weirdo. He sued. The old dude had to pay €120,000 in damages. He now lives in a tent.

In this case, the griefer's actual name hasn't been revealed, so I don't think there is too much to worry about. But I can perfectly understand people warning y'all to be careful. It is usually progressive. Right now, you are just making some casual accusations against a username, but you could find out his full name, location, etc, and you could be tempted to exaggerate what he has done. If you then say that this person has hacked or DDoSed you, and he hasn't, then he would be entitled to sue you for slander.

You're telling an attorney they're wrong about the law, and relying on a single spurious  anecdote to back you up? Brilliant.

First of all, I didn't say he didn't have to be careful. I said it wasn't criminal, as the clueless poster claimed. It isn't, it's civil, precisely as I said, at least in common-law countries like his and mine. Civil law countries often treat it as criminal, but that isn't relevant to this discussion, as we're in a common-law jurisdiction here. 

Second, he would NOT be entitled to sue for slander for anything said on this forum. Slander is verbal, libel is written. Both causes require publication, but given your complete lack of understanding of the basics, I'm going to spare you the nuance.

Third, defamation, as the cause of action encompassing slander and libel is usually called, varies in its requirements from jurisdiction to jurisdiction, as it's typically common law or common law passed into statute. Its geneology, however, is well-established enough that law schools and legal texts teach a uniform set of requirements, which in practice vary very little, unlike some common-law.  Those relevant here include:

1)The statement made must be false. Here, it was not. TSM said an act was criminal, and it was.
2) The statement must have caused damages to the defamed. Good luck demonstrating that here, given that we don't even know his name.
3) Statements made in good faith, under the reasonable belief that they are true, are generally treated the same as true statements; that is, even had TSM been wrong about the acts of the griefers being criminal, he would not be liable for defamation.
 
So no, neither I, nor anyone else posting in this forum, has much need to care about liability for defamation, though they might well find themselves in violation of the code of conduct. I would pick another career path than the law, were I you. I hear trash collectors make bank. '>

Funky
               
               

               

                     Modifié par FunkySwerve, 05 juin 2011 - 04:42 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Gregor Wyrmbane]

                @ Merselpath,

Interesting post, and probably a fairly accurate perception of many of the folks in the NWN community that take themselves and this game too seriously. However, the fact that you derive pleasure from causing them so much "grief", to the point that you devote a full 10 percent of your time in this life to that activity, doesn't speak well of your own emotional health, does it? Perhaps if you found a more fulfilling activity for that time, in the out of doors, you'd find a little more peace and happiness than you're experiencing now.

Just a thought. :^)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Merselpath]

               Greg: I'm in forestry. Most of my life is spent outdoors.

~Mersel
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FunkySwerve]

               

Merselpath wrote...

I am Merselpath, head of the organisation commonly known as the NWN Greifers. I am not here to argue with anyone, but to take part in a conversation. Most of us griefers are reasonable people.

Based on your group's showing here thus far, I'm going to have to respectfully disagree. '>

We are a small group. At our peak, we had about 6 active griefers. I have always been our most active member. At the moment, we are going through a quiet phase. The months of January to April were extremely productive. We have griefed a range of NWN servers, hitting some very hard. On each of Ravenloft, Arelith, Amia and FRC, we have killed around 200 characters.

That's it? I thought you guys had a larger brag list than that. Something like 20 servers?

I would like to make it clear that we only 'attack' within the game, and never outside of the game. We log on and kill people, which is what the game intended us to do. We never engage in illegal activities, like hacking servers.

Ah, I see, you believe that because of piece of software contains any exploitable bugs (and what software doesn't?), it manifests anthropomorphic qualities like intent, and further, that it intends you to exploit those bugs despite the express wishes of those running that software. Do I have that about right? Do other inanimate objects besides software often express their thoughts to you in this fashion? Just between you and me, 'the software made me do it' ranks up there with the Chewbacca Defense, in the courtroom.

It obviously isn't in my interests to reveal here exactly what method we use. Some servers have protected against particular methods, but we are frequently discovering new techniques. There is really a lot that one can do with NWN.

I'm confused. Why would it not be in your interests to reveal your methods? Come now, don't be modest, let us bask in your brilliance. Unless, of course, you realize that you're accessing these servers without permission, in which case your hesitance to reveal your methods makes sense. And it's hard to see how you couldn't, given the acrimony directed at you for your activities, some of which you highlight later in this post.

I have received numerous threats. The folks on FRC apparently wanted to find me and break my legs and arms. Others just wanted to smash my house up.

I see. So you DEFINITELY are aware that they don't want you on their servers interfering with their play. Thanks for clearing that up.

The harsh reality, however, is that most of the people making these threats are angry nerds who probably step outside the confines of their mom's basement very infrequently. A lot of people are addicted to NWN. If anything, we are helping those people, by showing them that they are pursuing an addiction which they can't even control.

Oh, I get it now! You're good samaritans! What a relief! And here I thought I'd have to draft some letters to clear up this little misunderstanding.

I myself used to RP on NWN quite obsessively, and I look back on that period with shame. I was playing at least 6 hours every day. Now, I spend about 2 hours a day griefing. I still consider it to be a slightly unhealthy habit, but it provides me with some quick fun. I do it because I enjoy it. I view it as a hobby. A lot of players tell me, after I've killed their character, that I have no life. But hey, they are devoting their own life to a fantasy world. So... *shrugs*

So because you had a problem with gaming addiction, everyone who plays games must also? Did your coffee table tell you so, or did you reason your way to that conclusion all by your lonesome? '>

I would like to point out that scare-mongering does not affect us. We have enough experience with the internet, that we know when someone is BSing.

Fantastic! Then you should also be able to tell when someone is NOT feeding you a line. This is great news.

My ISP are decent and fair. I would never do something illegal with my computer, but if I ever did accidentally do something illegal, then they would notify me of it, and I would make sure that it didn't happen again.

Actually, pumpkin, it's not the ISP's job to monitor illegal activity. It's the governments, though ISPs will occasionally step in, usually in order to avoid liability themselves. The fact that they haven't told you you're doing something illegal, is not a magic seal of legality. But I digress! Since you say you would never do something illegal with your computer, and would stop if you were informed that you had, we can end this silly dispute right now! Since you've admitted to accessing protected computers against the express wishes of their owners and causing harmful interference with their play, you are in violation of F.C.R Ch. 18 section 1030 sub. (5)(A). Further, if you did so by means of stolen or keygenned cd keys, as it certainly appears based on the number of cd keys of some of your members, you are also in violation of the same section, sub. (6)(A). Since, as you say, you're a reasonable guy, I'm sure it will not be necessary to inform anyone else of this fact, and you'll just stop, as you claim. I'm so glad we could have this little chat.

I haven't read every post in this thread, but some posters have said stuff along the lines of: Don't take yourselves so seriously. I recommend that everyone listens to them. If NWN is causing you to get stressed out, then take a break. Step outside. People get worked up over games, and it is ultimately because you can't control everything that happens in them - even if you want to. That's just the nature of multiplayer games.

So the stated goal of your group as expressed in the NAME you've annointed it with is to cause grief, but you don't want people to get worked up. Did your toaster oven grill up that little gem for you?

Funky
               
               

               

                     Modifié par FunkySwerve, 05 juin 2011 - 05:27 .