Author Topic: How to Attract Serious RPers?  (Read 1123 times)

Legacy_Totems and Teaparties

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How to Attract Serious RPers?
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2011, 10:55:46 am »


               There's a balance you need to maintain when considering what you label as 'serious' roleplayer. Having played across servers with compete freeform and no rules, and servers with long application processes, I found two extremes in NWN RP and the pros and cons to each:

The first is on the side away from strict, serious RPer. Total freeform, no rules, no restrictions. The elf-dragon mentioned? Oh yeah. They're here in the bar with us. So are the surface drow, the teiflings, the celestials, the half dragons, the strange half-canine fellow over there by the jukebox. Storylines don't know limit. No brown and drab 'realism' to get us down here. Fantastical is the norm.

Pros: Complete creativity abound. I have played on servers with this extreme and absolutely loved being able to craft whatever history or story caught my interest that day. Maybe I feel like hunting in the woods as a satyr in the morning, and after lunch stomping around as a slaad, I can do that. No one cares, they're all here to have fun. Fun is the name of the game. No one is afraid to propose radical and new ideas. This can lead to amazing stories and their seriousness is entirely up to the players involved.

Cons: The environment can attract and breed the 'my PC is better than yours' one-upping. Because fantastical is the norm, to be unique or different, you have to go to extreme lengths to do something out of the ordinary. There's no big reveal generally and drama has to be pumped to insane levels just to mean anything.

The other side of the spectrum is the deep, serious rulesy application-only roleplay worlds. When you get into them you know you're in with people vetted by a process to eliminate anyone who doesn't want to play within the pre-set lore of the sandbox. You're not going to run into random elf-dragons.

Pros: If you're getting into a server like this, generally you're in for the long haul. You find people with long, amazing, deep stories and three dimensional characters. Character development is a big deal, and you can really connect with the story. If something fantastical really comes along, it means something big.

Cons: Such structures and rules, especially with an application process, also tend to breed elitism. It's not a healthy community feature to collectively say 'we're SO much better than server X because we're much better roleplayers.' Egos can get puffed, and the us-VS-them will eventually turn inward on the community itself. Because you already had to prove yourself to get in, you may not be brave enough to strike out and try something radical and new, sticking to the same RP that gets you the praise of your peers.

The best servers I've played on have always struck a balance somewhere between those extremes, but the biggest contributing factor to maintaining that balance and the atmosphere is how you present your server at the first look- your forums.

I always like to read back on forums when I check out a new server. If I see public drama or drama spanning multiple threads, I'm less likely to give the world a test run. If I see that the rules are 20 pages long, or linked across 10 threads with obscure, hard to find tidbits, I'll look elsewhere. If I see a public wall of shame, I'll start running for the door.  

If I see general forum banter, screenshots, themesong threads, character bios, interesting discussions, then the playerbase looks like a nice, sane group of people. This is where you can hook people- even if they do run into Mr. Dragon-elf PC. If they see 30 character bios of 'normal' (for the server) PCs, then the Dragon-Elf's power to represent your world diminishes.

That was way more longwinded than I meant. Haha. I'll get to my point.

You need to decide first how you define 'serious' roleplayers, You need to know exactly what you want to attract. When you've got them, nurture them. Make your world thrive on the players you want, and the'll multiply like bunnies in the spring.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_kalbaern

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How to Attract Serious RPers?
« Reply #16 on: March 11, 2011, 04:42:20 pm »


               Best response yet "Totem..".
               
               

               
            

Legacy_henesua

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« Reply #17 on: March 11, 2011, 06:02:32 pm »


               Overall I agree with Totem. You need to strike a balance, and the face that the forum gives to new players is the critical piece to get right. However in response to Totem's claim that application based servers with server specific lore having tendencies toward elitism I disagree.

It is not necessarily true that a server application breeds elitism. I think that has more to do with the maturity of player making the complaint. I heard the same claim from some players at Vives, and the one common thread between them is that they were not getting enough DM attention to their PC specific stories. Not that they were getting no attention, just that they weren't getting enough.

So take claims of "eliticism" with a grain of salt. Its a common complaint by those that feel they don't get enough attention.

In my view, a good role player is someone who can get a story rolling with other players (or on their own) regardless of whether a DM is involved. As long as they share their narrative on the forum then eventually their story gathers momentum and others get drawn in.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Jenna WSI

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« Reply #18 on: March 11, 2011, 07:02:54 pm »


               Totem: I think you're right on the money with that post, and I was thinking about how to strike a balance between the two, before getting the end and reading your thoughts on a server that works in between the extremes.

As an aside, you said you run away from servers that use a 'wall of shame'. We started posting bans when they were a repeat offender or permabanned, because bitter players have a way of spreading a distorted truth about the situation. It was done out of our protection against slander. Do you still see it as a bad way to handle bans, if the intent is not to degrade or shame a player, and is not worded in that way?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Totems and Teaparties

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« Reply #19 on: March 11, 2011, 09:45:12 pm »


               @ Henesua
What I presented were fictitious extremes, you're very right in that applications =/= 'elitist' behavior server. And yes, it is a common cry for those who feel they're being treated unfairly. I think, though, that applications tend to attract people like the person reviewing them. This can be extremely good, or extremely bad. As an aside, I think it is far more a novel of rules than an application process that causes the 'My sandbox is better than yours' syndrome.

@Jenna
This is a personal opinion, and while I know others who share it I don't actually know how widespread it is. I'm going to be very open an honest- this is not an attack on you or your server by any means, or a representation of how bans might be handled there.

I've been part of a few RP communities where Bans were aired to the public, and even when the admins tried to handle it as gently as possible, the fact is that you're still shaming the person by posting the fact that they were banned. It airs dirty laundry which can look distasteful to the outside eye. As a new player, I don't care if Bob the Barbarian found an exploit- I'm never gonna see him. He's banned.

The other issue with posting them is you're already expecting the banned player to spread disoriented truth. You've effectively punished them again (via the public shaming post).  Not being able to continue to RP and log on your server/forums should be punishment enough, there is no need to publicly degrade them. If they are disgruntled and come back to bemoan and whine on your forums, then they're already putting themselves out. Lock the thread after a simple 'If you wish to ask questions about your ban, please e-mail (email here)' and shut down their new account. Their own actions will make them look bad. If someone goes quietly, there's no reason for the server to be ever the wiser why Problem Player A is no longer bugging them. If the banned player has friends left behind, chances are they'll know the truth of what's going on whether you post the bans or not.

What posting the banning does is actually make you look bad. You're presenting yourself already on the defensive. If the ban was just, you don't need to defend it. People are generally skeptical anyway, if someone is calming 'Oh yeah Jenna totally banned me because I have blond hair and she hates blond hair!' (immensely fictitious example) but all the players know of you is a fair and levelheaded admin, they're not likely to believe you're actually on some anti-blond campaign.

The last, and possibly most important part (and possibly the one capable of sparking the most debate) is that posting public bans can encourage harassment of the person banned. You may be trying to keep the truth out there, but maybe Player D was super disgruntled with this person and not as mature as you thought. They feel justified now and follow the person to a new server to cause them grief. Public bans are food for the inner troll, you cannot control what people read them and what people do with the information. Afterall, if they go on some anonymous account- how are you to know they're acting out of line? Remember the Internet Dickwad Theory.

All said, this is personal opinion of mine based on my experiences on online servers. Once again, I'm speaking in ridiculous general terms, there are always exceptions/etc. But I think this sums up why I don't much like public banning posts.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Jenna WSI

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« Reply #20 on: March 11, 2011, 11:31:01 pm »


               Thanks for posting that reply. I'll give it some thought. I DMed on Amia before starting the WSI and I had seen the slander go on with many of the banned players. They'd make up reason that the admin/dms were unfair and conveniently dance around anything they had done that might have been wrong or caused the DMs to react that way.  It's happened a handfull of times with WSI and I noticed other servers flat out posting bans.. and I thought of it as a way to be transparent in our dealings, and take care of slander at the same time. While slander may not seem like a big deal at first, it is when you're loosing half of your playerbase because of one bad player who's both very social and good at persuading people.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Jenna WSI, 11 mars 2011 - 11:34 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_kalbaern

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« Reply #21 on: March 12, 2011, 12:02:58 am »


               

Jenna WSI wrote...

Thanks for posting that reply. I'll give it some thought. I DMed on Amia before starting the WSI and I had seen the slander go on with many of the banned players. They'd make up reason that the admin/dms were unfair and conveniently dance around anything they had done that might have been wrong or caused the DMs to react that way.  It's happened a handfull of times with WSI and I noticed other servers flat out posting bans.. and I thought of it as a way to be transparent in our dealings, and take care of slander at the same time. While slander may not seem like a big deal at first, it is when you're loosing half of your playerbase because of one bad player who's both very social and good at persuading people.


I've seen the same many places as well, including on my own PW. I've considered often whether or not to post publicly bans and/or other punishments. So far, I've held off. I can see both sides though. For now, I simply ban from both the server and forums any that need it. I make sure that banned players have my own and other DMs Emails incase they wish to plead their cases still. Bans aren't issued lightly though. I generally speak with all players involved in any issue privately first. "We" also do any player intervues with at least two DMs present to help avoid any misunderstandings. If a DM was the one bringing a player issue to the fore, they will not attend any fact finding intervues.

So far we've had good luck and minimal issues with our playerbase overall. The few "flame wars" that have errupted were quickly doused and we've moved on. Have we lost some players from collateral damage in dealing with one "knucklehead" who gets his/her buddies to follow them somewhere else? Yup. For as many as we've lost that way though, we've gained more by standing our ground. We're a heavy RP PW, but that doesn't mean we'll tolerate for long any player's RP that is aimed at just making others miserable in the end either.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_SuperFly_2000

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« Reply #22 on: March 12, 2011, 12:26:14 am »


               Is this off topic?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Jenna WSI

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« Reply #23 on: March 12, 2011, 01:19:25 am »


               Yes, but seeing as I helped de-rail my own thread... does it matter?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_TSMDude

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« Reply #24 on: March 12, 2011, 01:24:14 am »


               

Jenna WSI wrote...

Thanks for posting that reply. I'll give it some thought. I DMed on Amia before starting the WSI and I had seen the slander go on with many of the banned players. They'd make up reason that the admin/dms were unfair and conveniently dance around anything they had done that might have been wrong or caused the DMs to react that way.  It's happened a handfull of times with WSI and I noticed other servers flat out posting bans.. and I thought of it as a way to be transparent in our dealings, and take care of slander at the same time. While slander may not seem like a big deal at first, it is when you're loosing half of your playerbase because of one bad player who's both very social and good at persuading people.


While I agree with almost everything Totem wrote this I do agree on as well. In this day and age we post everything to the Staff side from Skype conversations and what not to be as transparent as possible.

It is like when I was in the military you never go anywhere with a female on your own. 99% of all women wouldnever do a thing but that 1% will be mean and lie enough to bring it all done. (And this goes same for men as well.) 
               
               

               
            

Legacy_omen_shepperd

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« Reply #25 on: March 12, 2011, 06:27:34 pm »


               I wanted to add in to the discussion pertaining to the character playing the dragon trapped in an elf’s body. On the old server I ran a while back the dev team felt it would be a really awesome idea to allow players to assume the identifies of the various demon and devil lords of d&d  lore. Personally, I have seen what people will tend to do when given power they should not have. In addition, unfortunately I was outvoted into allowing it, so when over ¾ of the server left due to the actions of one of these people. It was one of many nails driven into the coffin of the server over the year it was up.  I realized the impact the situation had way too late to fix it. Therefore, I shut things down and took a step back. I view it this way some people do not mind having nine half dragon/half fiend vampire drow elves hanging out as PC’s. However, if it is something that will break the playability of the game for everyone it is not worth allowing anyone to play. Every server has its own style, so I never get bothered by telling someone with an incompatible style they may find a better server more suited for their tastes elsewhere.
I think time and patience is one of the best ways to find the RP’ers that are more suited to your tastes. Granted some advertising never hurts, just do not overdo it; overexposure can be a major deterrent for me to visit a server. Personally, I would rather play with five good people than to have a full server all day and night long.
As far as posting wall of shame or some other means of announcing troublemakers I feel that airing any form of response to trollish or disruptive behavior is probably not the best way to handle it. I can agree that the community as a group should work together to rid ourselves of such activity. However, posting something relating to this type of situation can cause even more problems for the staff and players of a server and it is probably better to not make announcements to your player base when dealing with such situations. Again, I had this type of situation happen on my former server and through our own mistakes, I can say I have learned to just ban and forget. Players tend to leave servers in conflict with former players/staff. You are better off standing your ground and letting someone continue to behave the way they will. If someone is a rampant PKer on one server, when they are banned from one they will tend to become a PKer on another server. The good honest players make it worth the while to keep on keeping on.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_A_Julian

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« Reply #26 on: March 14, 2011, 09:51:36 pm »


               There's no magic formula. Serious RPers attract serious RPers.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Aleron

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« Reply #27 on: March 15, 2011, 12:52:52 am »


               I tend to agree, Omen, I prefer a smaller quality group of people to a maxed out server number any day. Speaking as a DM and player, smaller numbers in events especially allow everyone to get a more personalized event and everyone to have their own roles and express themself better I've found over the years.

As for the topic of "airing dirty laundry", I have a hard time saying where I stand tbh. I don't think it is as black and white as most people make it. On one hand, yes, you are bringing these people to everyone else's attention and this is not necessarily nice or right. However, as a player would you prefer honesty? I've seen a lot of servers where the DMs don't tell the players -anything- that goes on and I wouldn't say it is better than the ones that do. Rumours tend to spread and exaggerate on those servers, especially since there is a lack of information of what actually happened and all word of mouth. If the DMs aren't allowed to give their side and reasons...then it tends to perhaps be coloured worse than it is.

It's a topic that I imagine comes up for every server. I'm not sure if there is a definite right answer for it either. Everyone will do what they think is best and everyone will have their own opinion of what that is exactly.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Fellanor

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« Reply #28 on: March 15, 2011, 03:34:42 am »


               Another entertaining thread. Pretty funny watching a thread derail utterly, one must admit.

On topic, just a minor note:

I'm not necessarily sure serious RPers want skill checks for everything. Yes, apply them when it makes sense to, but I've seen people roll for the most trivial things and it stagnates RP and kinda ticks people off.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_FireWraith

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« Reply #29 on: March 16, 2011, 02:13:02 am »


               My basic theory is that it's a balance between:
-What the player wants to play
and
-The degree to which it strains the setting

Every server will have to find a balance to this.  I've seen servers that allowed just about anything short of "I'm a God", and I've seen servers that banned everything except the basic races.  My own preference is to try and help the player have the character concept they want, so long as it doesn't render the setting unbelievable to others.  This can vary with the setting of course... For instance, in a setting in Arabel in the Forgotten Realms might be far more lenient for planetouched (aasimar, tiefling, genasi) due to the presence of a gate to the World Serpent Inn (and thus the Planes), than it would be for Half-Orcs, due to a general hatred of orcbloods by the inhabitants of the city following its sacking by invading Orcs a few years back.  On the other hand, a server set in Menzoberranzan might allow drow, duergar, and a few others, with half-orcs and humans somewhat restricted, and such.

What the server I help run does is to require applications for anything but standard and standard variant races, and we then work to try and ascertain whether the player has a solid grounding in what they want to portray (such as, actually has an idea what Drow are like, and not just Yet Another Drizz't Clone), how it will fit into the server, problems the character can run into, limitations, and so on.  If we see problems, we'll suggest how they might be fixed or minimized.  If we run across someone who's just logged in with a crazy background description (the aforementioned dragon in an elf's body), we pull them aside and politely explain that such concepts need approval, and that they can't play the character as such without it.

Bottom line, I'd say to figure out where the line for "anyone can play this" and "this can be played by approved request only."  Try to be as open and even-handed about the process as you can, and about where those lines lie, and you'll probably find a good compromise.