Author Topic: Do Haks stop people from coming to a server?  (Read 2938 times)

Legacy_TripleAught

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Do Haks stop people from coming to a server?
« Reply #45 on: February 17, 2011, 04:22:44 am »


               My thoughts pretty much align with everyone that has said "Make the most of any haks you use".



But what I'm really interested to know if if your world decided to go with haks or not? And what pushed you to that final decision?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_ehye_khandee

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« Reply #46 on: February 17, 2011, 06:15:54 am »


               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

ehye_khandee wrote...

Sorry to be a downer but it stands to reason, if your 'draw' (percentage of viewers who take your offer) is pitched to a smaller group, you will get less total takers. This assumes you have the same level of appeal with the module and pitch. The groups outlined in my other post indicated that the smaller group are those 'amenable to haks' vs the whole group of nwners which is the larger group. Pitched against these two groups the larger group should provide a greater response, all else being equal. It's just numbers.

Those ain't correct numbers, nor correct logical reasoning. There's the group of those who will play only hak-less PWs, those that will play only hak-ed PWs and those who play both. Since you do not have the numbers of the first and second group, you have no way to support your statement. I see that you haven't yet grasped what you have been told many moons ago. I'm not surprised.


Kail, go borrow a working brain and see if you can wrap it around this :

Those servers which have NO haks can be joined by any nwn player, therefore is a larger group, in fact the largest group as it represents 'all nwn players'. Those servers which use haks can only be joined by persons from the first group, who also have the hak (or are willing to obtain it). This will always, and by necessity be a smaller group, since it is a sub-set of the first group.

You are right, I don't bother grasping what is inherently wrong. You should try it sometime.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Karvon

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Do Haks stop people from coming to a server?
« Reply #47 on: February 17, 2011, 08:47:31 am »


               

TripleAught wrote...

My thoughts pretty much align with everyone that has said "Make the most of any haks you use".

But what I'm really interested to know if if your world decided to go with haks or not? And what pushed you to that final decision?


As a builder/DM, I want to have access to certain CC to enhance my view of what my mod will look like. While you can certainly tell stories with just the basics, and perhaps CEP, some tilesets or whatever, can really help bring your world to life. Thus, I normally make use of additional haks in my campaigns.

Karvon
               
               

               
            

Legacy_kalbaern

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Do Haks stop people from coming to a server?
« Reply #48 on: February 17, 2011, 08:54:48 am »


               

TripleAught wrote...

My thoughts pretty much align with everyone that has said "Make the most of any haks you use".

But what I'm really interested to know if if your world decided to go with haks or not? And what pushed you to that final decision?


I myself judge haks as follows:

1) Will it enhance my existing areas or detract from them?

This is more a concern when updating older modules or using older areas for a new module. If half a PW uses Bioware Tilesets or even enhanced variants, then adding areas made with LoW's or sixthrice's tilesets will make the other areas pale too much. Transitioning from a Bioware(ish) Rural or Forest Exterior to one of theirs on the next map just breaks immersion for me as theirs shine so much brighter.'<img'> This is also why I use the CEP. It meshes fairly nicely with the Bioware stuff. Were I to make a new module from scratch though, I'd likely use only the CEP appearances for creatures and placeables and use all custom tilesets from those mentioned above and others like Maxam and Senemenelas (something I ponder weekly actually).

2) Is the Hak complete or still in Beta?

When I first started building, there were many haks in developement that seemed promising. People get busy, drift away, find other things they like doing better and a good many hak projects never get completed. So completed haks are more attractive to me. I use Maxam's Versatile Dungeon and classic Dungeon tilesets and love them both even though his Versatile one is unfinished. Despite what is yet to be added or finished though, I played around with the existing features and decided that whether it ever was done or not, I'd be using it alot. '<img'> I did pass on some of sixthrices stuff though because it left me wanting still. That's not the case now, but was when I started my current PW. (I'm constantly tempted to just rip out half my areas and use six's stuff anyhow now that they are complete or nearer to complete nowadays)

3) Will I use the hak for more than just an area or three and can I come close to my vision with what I have already?

Many times I've been tempted to add a hak based on what it would do to fill a small need. If it's a large hak, but I only forsee using it for an area or two, then those either have to be "make or break" areas where I just gotta have it to pull off the desired effect or I'll do without. I've passed on several haks just because I knew I'd never really use them to their full potential. As a builder, I'm frugal and want the biggest bang for my buck everytime. As a player, it's disheartening to download haks that are Gigabytes in size and find out that the PW uses it in only a few areas. Sometimes as I test a potential new hak, I suddenly envision how I might come close using something I already have in my module.

4) Aside from the visual appeal, are there any or many pathfinding isues?

Early on, I'd added in the JPX Mountains to my module. They created some really nice areas to look at. Pathfinding however was horrible. Eventually, I ended up removing them and replacing them with either areas made with CEP 2.3 options or the large City/Rural Combo hak I use.

5) Are the haks easy to download and install? Do they work for all platforms?

You'd think that might sound silly, but some haks require abit of work to use. If players have to leap through too many hoops to get them to work, many won't bother. CEP seems to confuse many players as does the CTP at times. Some haks extract to a folder and need yanked from there and dragged to your hak folder. Most of us here can handle that, but there's alot of players that panic when more than point and click is required. I admit that CEP has caused me issues in the past as some MAC users couldn't get all the newer content. Luckilly, I was able to download what they needed over MSN to the handful of players I had that were suffering. A few haks I've passed on because they needed renamed inorder to work for Linux users. Reposting someone elses work with just the haks renamed isn't something I'm ever likely to do.

6) Does the hak "play well with others"?

If I need to add my own custom hak to merge 2da files or TLKs then I might pass or at least put off adding the hak. I have one hak currently that I plan on adding, but since it needs some merges made, I'm holding off a few months as I'll be adding a custom TLK and a custom hak (Spells and JFK's "Makeshift Weapons" ... ya gotta love duel wielding frypans) to my module anyways. This way, I only have to listen to players whine once this spring. '<img'> (They will and always do too ... even if you give them a months notice they'll wait until you've made the change and whine that you ruined their playtime '<img'>)

Anyhow, that's how I decide on what if any haks to use. As for the real "push"? That's easy. It came when I first added my underdark haks and saw that I coul dmake a "real" underdark finally. After that, the rest was an easy sale.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par kalbaern, 17 février 2011 - 08:57 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_henesua

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Do Haks stop people from coming to a server?
« Reply #49 on: February 21, 2011, 02:43:40 am »


               For a module with standard tilesets I highly recommend getting NWNCQ. It will improve the appearance of all of your existing areas. You can use the override or the hak.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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Do Haks stop people from coming to a server?
« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2011, 04:31:31 pm »


               

ehye_khandee wrote...


Kail Pendragon wrote...

ehye_khandee wrote...

Sorry to be a downer but it stands to reason, if your 'draw' (percentage of viewers who take your offer) is pitched to a smaller group, you will get less total takers. This assumes you have the same level of appeal with the module and pitch. The groups outlined in my other post indicated that the smaller group are those 'amenable to haks' vs the whole group of nwners which is the larger group. Pitched against these two groups the larger group should provide a greater response, all else being equal. It's just numbers.

Those ain't correct numbers, nor correct logical reasoning. There's the group of those who will play only hak-less PWs, those that will play only hak-ed PWs and those who play both. Since you do not have the numbers of the first and second group, you have no way to support your statement. I see that you haven't yet grasped what you have been told many moons ago. I'm not surprised.


Kail, go borrow a working brain and see if you can wrap it around this :

Those servers which have NO haks can be joined by any nwn player, therefore is a larger group, in fact the largest group as it represents 'all nwn players'. Those servers which use haks can only be joined by persons from the first group, who also have the hak (or are willing to obtain it). This will always, and by necessity be a smaller group, since it is a sub-set of the first group.

You are right, I don't bother grasping what is inherently wrong. You should try it sometime.


':lol:'

I see time is not making you any wiser not to say smarter. Mother nature has not been kind to you but you are your worst enemy. And you cannot grasp neither basic logic, nor mathematics, nor set theory. The server that have no haks can be joined by all the players wiling to join a server which has no hak . That is a subset of all NWN players (one which you have no figures for). Similarly the servers with haks can be joined by all players willing to join server with haks, another subset of all NWN players. Of all NWN players some will be willing to join only servers with haks, some only servers without haks and some both. The latter belong to both groups I mentioned above and as such do not contribute to determine whether there is more players which will play only server with haks or only servers without haks. Since we have no figures to say whether there's more players belonging to the group that playes only haked worlds vs those that play only non-haked worlds, it is impossible to say with certainty whether haked or non haked worlds have a wider audience. All we have is conjecture, which may be wright or wrong (and we have no way to know).

I really don't know how to make it simpler than this, unfortunately I am not as dumb as it takes to understand your limited intellect.

Congratulations for making yourself look like a fool once more, that is making yourself look like what you actually are.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Jenna WSI

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Do Haks stop people from coming to a server?
« Reply #51 on: February 27, 2011, 04:51:48 pm »


               This is just silly on both sides, isn't there something more productive you could be doing?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_ehye_khandee

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« Reply #52 on: February 27, 2011, 11:00:35 pm »


               

Kail Pendragon wrote...

[as usual, nothing worth reading.]


Kail,
I find it amazing that you fail to either read my post or comprehend the words.

I will try one more time, then resolve that you are just impish or unable to comprehend.

ALL of NWN players - can join a server with no haks. CAN is the operative word.

SOME of NWN players (who have haks required) can join servers with haks.

The sub-set is invariably smaller than the set.

Invariably is the operative word here.

Please do try to digest these simple immutable facts. Then maybe try not to be so annoyingly wrong.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_kalbaern

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Do Haks stop people from coming to a server?
« Reply #53 on: March 01, 2011, 03:07:57 am »


               To put Kail's views in a calmer light ...

Assuming that everyone with NWN will visit a PW not using haks is wrong. I know a good many that never will. What that percentage actually is I've no clue, but ... I suspect it's higher than many would guess. I suspect whether a person will or won't visit a PW based on whether they do or do not use haks will depend on many variables too.

- NWN seems to have a wider age spread than many other online games. Many of the "older" players I know are often afraid of haks. Just loading and updating to 1.69 is often enough to give them an anxiety attack. '<img'> Many older folks do prefer a hakless PW.

- Many folk regardless of age (though rarely under 30) fear that a simple misclick installing a hak will end the world, launch a virus to wipe out their computers or somehow make some guy in Nigeria able to empty their checking accounts. These of course also prefer a hakless PW.

- Even installing the CEP can be daunting and confusing to many. Once done though, most enjoy the extra content, especially the character customization gained from it.

- Many and I include myself won't usually visit a PW that uses no haks. We're spoiled. We love all the new content that's been added other the years.

In the end, while ALL that play NWN can join a server that uses no haks, not ALL ever will.

I've helped several PWs update from vanilla to CEP or other haks over the years. The loud resistance common in '05 has been replaced more often by pleas to "add more" nowadays. This would show a trend toward many favoring a hak vs non-hak PW to visit.

Ehye is correct that no haks means a greater possible draw. But only possible based on numbers of game owners.

Kail is also correct. Many that own NWN won't consider a hakless PW as they assume (rightly or wrongly is moot) that no haks at all means an outdated and dieing PW.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Jenna WSI

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« Reply #54 on: March 01, 2011, 05:54:23 pm »


               I really don't think there's a difference. Look at Arelith and Amia. Hackless and Hacked, respectively. Both have about the same spread of playerbase. If you offer something people want, they're willing to go to a little trouble to get it. Now, as for bringing new players and getting people to want to experience a server without a solid playerbase hackless or hacked (People go where people are..) ... that's a different topic and I don't think hacks play much of a role. Because there are just as many empty servers that are equally hacked and hackless sitting out there. I really think it has nothing to do with custom content and more with your server's draw on players.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Jenna WSI, 01 mars 2011 - 05:59 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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« Reply #55 on: March 09, 2011, 12:29:16 pm »


               

ehye_khandee wrote...

Kail,
I find it amazing that you fail to either read my post or comprehend the words.

I will try one more time, then resolve that you are just impish or unable to comprehend.

ALL of NWN players - can join a server with no haks. CAN is the operative word.

Wrong. Can is not the operative word. The operative words are "are willing to".

SOME of NWN players (who have haks required) can join servers with haks.

All NWNW players can join a server with haks, they just need to download them.

The sub-set is invariably smaller than the set.

Indeed, the sub-set of "all NWN players willing to play hakless servers" is smaller than the set of "all NWN players"; similarly the  sub-set "all NWN players willing to play hak-ed servers" is smaller than the set "all NWN players".  You have no way to know which of these two subsets is bigger, hence your statement is simply unverifiable.

You, in your sheer ignorance and lack of intelligence, fail to take into account that there are players that will never play servers without haks. They could, if they wanted to, but they do not want and never will want. Hakfree sevrers do not have all NWN players as their pool of potential players. That is a fact.

Invariably

is the operative word here.

Please do try to digest these simple immutable facts. Then maybe try not to be so annoyingly wrong.

Try to read, then understanmd. I know it's difficult for you or I wouldn't have to repeat the same basic concept time and time again. Hakfree servers have a pool of players which is a subset of all nwn players. Haked servers have a pool of players which is a subset of all nwn players. To the best of my knowledge there are currently no figures for these subsets, hence there is no way anyone can state with certainty whether haked or hakfree servers enjoy the widest pool of players. If you have verified figures, come on forth be my guest and show them. But you ain' t got nothing but your empty and unfounded claims, unfounded in both logic and facts. Goodbye.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 09 mars 2011 - 12:29 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Kail Pendragon

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« Reply #56 on: March 09, 2011, 12:36:57 pm »


               

kalbaern wrote...

To put Kail's views in a calmer light ...

Assuming that everyone with NWN will visit a PW not using haks is wrong. I know a good many that never will. What that percentage actually is I've no clue, but ... I suspect it's higher than many would guess. I suspect whether a person will or won't visit a PW based on whether they do or do not use haks will depend on many variables too.

- NWN seems to have a wider age spread than many other online games. Many of the "older" players I know are often afraid of haks. Just loading and updating to 1.69 is often enough to give them an anxiety attack. '<img'> Many older folks do prefer a hakless PW.

- Many folk regardless of age (though rarely under 30) fear that a simple misclick installing a hak will end the world, launch a virus to wipe out their computers or somehow make some guy in Nigeria able to empty their checking accounts. These of course also prefer a hakless PW.

- Even installing the CEP can be daunting and confusing to many. Once done though, most enjoy the extra content, especially the character customization gained from it.

- Many and I include myself won't usually visit a PW that uses no haks. We're spoiled. We love all the new content that's been added other the years.

In the end, while ALL that play NWN can join a server that uses no haks, not ALL ever will.

I've helped several PWs update from vanilla to CEP or other haks over the years. The loud resistance common in '05 has been replaced more often by pleas to "add more" nowadays. This would show a trend toward many favoring a hak vs non-hak PW to visit.

Ehye is correct that no haks means a greater possible draw. But only possible based on numbers of game owners.

Kail is also correct. Many that own NWN won't consider a hakless PW as they assume (rightly or wrongly is moot) that no haks at all means an outdated and dieing PW.

Bravo.

HAKed PWs mean extra custom content and hence the possibility to get a very unique and special feel compared to hakfree servers. One might want to play only servers that have custom tilesets, or custom races, or custom classes, or classes updated to 3.5 rules, etc. and that is something that hakfree PWs are not in able to grant.

That said, one is free to make an educated guess that hakfree servers might enjoy a wider pool of players because of any factor they choose to take into account and analyze. I might even concur that hakfree servers probably have more players to draw from, but I won't state it as a fact, because I simply am not in the position to do that.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Kail Pendragon, 09 mars 2011 - 12:38 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_ehye_khandee

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« Reply #57 on: March 09, 2011, 10:32:03 pm »


               

kalbaern wrote...

To put Kail's views in a calmer light ...

Assuming that everyone with NWN will visit a PW not using haks is wrong.


First, read what I posted. I never said 'everyone will' I said 'all nwn owners CAN join a server without haks. This is a true statement.

For Kail's benefit, I'll remind all that no-one here has proven that a sub-set can be larger than the set. Buy yourself a jumbo box of logic and have a go at it. 

I stand by my statement.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_ehye_khandee

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« Reply #58 on: March 09, 2011, 10:38:35 pm »


               

Kail Pendragon wrote...


ehye_khandee wrote...

Kail,
I find it amazing that you fail to either read my post or comprehend the words.

I will try one more time, then resolve that you are just impish or unable to comprehend.

ALL of NWN players - can join a server with no haks. CAN is the operative word.

Wrong. Can is not the operative word. The operative words are "are willing to".

This is without merit. You are AGAIN putting words into my post which I did not type. I stated what I stated and you took it utterly wrong as you always have. Read what I said, and post your counterclaim actually addressing the point I made and we'll have a dialog. Up until now, you are simply wrong, utterly wrong and fully wrongheaded.

I repeat - my original statement here for those unable or unwilling to read the original :

It is 100% logical that since a server that does not use haks can be joined by ALL of the NWN audience and servers WITH a hak requirement can only be joined by a SOME of the NWN audience, that having hak requirments DOES limit who can join.
Making your hak requirements more managable by linking to them from your forums, wiki, web, blog, etc. makes it more likely that those who are lacking your haks may download them and thus be able to join the server.

All this said, there are still a portion of the NWN audience who are purists and will not even consider downloading a hak. Most of them play on the more crowded servers such as ARELITH where both numbers that lure new PLAYERS to click and explore are met with a successful connection attempt. Once you get the new PLAYER through the door and started, usually, they will stay (if your content is worth anything at least).

All that said, I'll tell you, add haks ONLY if you need them.


END.

Now, Kail, if you will get someone to read the page for you, you will see it is ONLY YOU who are positing 'willingness' I stated only 'can join' and I stand by that utter truth.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_avado

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« Reply #59 on: March 10, 2011, 12:49:13 am »


               

ehye_khandee wrote...
Kail, go borrow a working brain and see if you can wrap it around this :

In all my days, I have NEVER read these sort of words directed to Kail.  Kail has been known to deal with concepts alot more complex than this in intelligent and efficient manner.