Do Haks stop people from coming to a server?

[Legacy_NorthWolf]

               I'm in Eradrain's boat, though probably for different reasons. To me it's about genre, and I roleplay a lot. The additional models, tilesets, etc. you get from custom content feel necessary for Neverwinter Nights to stay fresh to me; after all, a lot of my play time is spent standing around looking at other people and the scenery, and without some jazzing up it gets old fast. Even the CEP, which adds awesome content, isn't enough; I've seen its steady progression over the years and become accustom to the content it offers the same way I'm accustom to the base clothing you get in Neverwinter Nights.



That isn't to say other people can't appreciate visuals, just you're a lot more likely to if you're not busy contending with PvM or PvP gameplay to want prettier stuff.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Kniva Knobbyknees]

               Having played NWN forever and a day (has it been that long?) I will say that haks "can" be a deterent.  If you use a hak, its best to mention the hak as upfront as possible.  I log into a PW with no mention of a hak (and I get punted) I tend to never return.  

If you plan to use a hak, then the most up to date CEP seems like the most logical one to use when you are building a PW.  



That said ... there are still alot of old PWs that were around before CEP.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Falonthas]

               ok some are misreading - the PW im speaking of has been around since 2003 and is in its 4th version due to the very gifted scripting and building team. of course you can only build so much with the base content, which is why we began to think about adding haks as a community
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NorthWolf]

               As I said earlier, most people won't leave over the addition of haks to a server if they've invested time in it. I've seen twice where a community got all up in arms about the addition of haks, but neither time did I see a decrease in player count at the end of everything. That's just me, though; other people might have different experiences.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               

NorthWolf wrote...

As I said earlier, most people won't leave over the addition of haks to a server if they've invested time in it. I've seen twice where a community got all up in arms about the addition of haks, but neither time did I see a decrease in player count at the end of everything. That's just me, though; other people might have different experiences.

I totally agree and have witnessed the same. There will undoubtably be an initial uproar, but once the fruit of your labors starts to be seen by players, they'll forget all about it and want more. '>

Since your module uses all standard tilesets though, I think adding the CEP 2.3 is the best option, at least as a start. For a module being built from scratch, I'd recommend even more haks depending on the campaign setting. The thing I like the most about the CEP for an otherwise vanilla module is that their tileset additions can be added as both stand alones and extensions. The extensions option would allow you to update many of your pre-existing maps without having to completely replace them instead. There are two rather large PWs doing just this right now infact.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               As a builder I love haks. LOVE them. I think as NWN gets older we will see more folks being okay with haks and outnumbering those who do not.



As Admin of a PW we do not use anything besides CEP at the moment. Would we lose players? Probally not as we started with a optional override and it went over rather well. Yet you do lose the drop in guy to see what it is like but honestly as the game ages there is less of those and more just Base.



With Barry being down and out and CEP slowly regrouping I am hoping that the Custom Content guys will get together as one massive force and merge thier fab work together for the good of the Community. (nudge nudge...I would even bake you guys cookies!)



               
               

               
            

[Legacy_omen_shepperd]

               It would be really cool to see the cep and prc unify into one set of haks.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jenna WSI]

               I haven't read all the replies, but we did poll this extensively for our server to make the same decision. The answer seems to be that you loose and gain players from haks. Some people don't want to download custom content to try a new server, and some players refuse to login to a server that does not have haks and custom content. The question is really more about what kind of players you're looking to attract.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Jenna WSI wrote...
....clip...

The question is really more about what kind of players you're looking to attract.

Kudos!  That capsulates it about as good as can be.  It's seems a difficult decision to make so my question is: what is the proportion of new samplers vs. innovation-seeking vets?  Perhaps the availability  of sites like GoG will change the ratio in the future?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FunkySwerve]

               The ratio isn't great, but it's a lot more vet-heavy, to use your terms, than it used to be, and will continue to become moreso as the game changes. I seriously doubt adding haks (other than CEP) will ever net you more players than going without, but it almost definitely costs you fewer than it once did.



At the risk of beating a dead horse, though, it's not a decision that's nearly as costly now as it used to be, either, with the addition of the CEP custom hak. With that, you can stow an enormous amount of custom content for access in your mod, without it costing you any players that that have the CEP. Spells, custom classes, custom icons, and much more are all available through this method in vanilla nwn. We've actually added vfx and item properties to that list as well on HG, though it took some engine edits in order to create alternate vfx for those without our custom hak, and to make those item props not show as badstrref for them. Likewise, you can even add tilesets, though you would need some way to prevent those without your custom hak from entering such areas - we haven't managed that yet.



Unless you're eying a really large number of custom content items, packing them into CEP's custom hak is likely the best tradeoff of added content / player loss you're going to see.



Funky
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               

FunkySwerve wrote...

You don't need to have custom hacks for this beyond the cep_custom hak. We have oodles of custom spells, for example, by this method. That way, players can sample the server and determine if it's worth their time to download additional content.

Funky

This is going to be my only post on this subject, because I don't want to derail the thread, but...

If your custom spells don't appear in the spellbook along with the default spells, if your custom classes don't show up at the level-up screen alongside the standard classes, if you're using workarounds of any kind to cut down on haks and custom talk tables, if the functionality of your custom spells/feats/classes works even one iota differently than the basic functionality of the game, then by my book, it's not a server worth trying.  Nothing breaks my immersion more than scripted workarounds, that's just the way I personally am.  Nothing screams "AMATEUR" to me like a server that opted to use workarounds, whether in the interest of being accessible to hak-unfriendly players or from lack of developer know-how, instead of using 2da haks and .tlks to properly implement this kind of content.

I don't know what the CEP Custom hak is because I've avoided the CEP for a long time now, but I do know that though you can change spells and feats around with 2das, you can't properly implement brand new, custom spells, feats and classes without a custom talk table.  Saying anything different is just misleading, because it's a work-around, and not the genuine article.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Eradrain, 29 décembre 2010 - 01:10 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               

Eradrain wrote...

FunkySwerve wrote...

You don't need to have custom hacks for this beyond the cep_custom hak. We have oodles of custom spells, for example, by this method. That way, players can sample the server and determine if it's worth their time to download additional content.

Funky

This is going to be my only post on this subject, because I don't want to derail the thread, but...

If your custom spells don't appear in the spellbook along with the default spells, if your custom classes don't show up at the level-up screen alongside the standard classes, if you're using workarounds of any kind to cut down on haks and custom talk tables, if the functionality of your custom spells/feats/classes works even one iota differently than the basic functionality of the game, then by my book, it's not a server worth trying.  Nothing breaks my immersion more than scripted workarounds, that's just the way I personally am.  Nothing screams "AMATEUR" to me like a server that opted to use workarounds, whether in the interest of being accessible to hak-unfriendly players or from lack of developer know-how, instead of using 2da haks and .tlks to properly implement this kind of content.

I don't know what the CEP Custom hak is because I've avoided the CEP for a long time now, but I do know that though you can change spells and feats around with 2das, you can't properly implement brand new, custom spells, feats and classes without a custom talk table.  Saying anything different is just misleading, because it's a work-around, and not the genuine article.

You've misunderstood Funky's post. He's claiming to offer just what you ask for. However, it's optional. His use of the CEP Custom hak allows folk to log in with nothing more so they can "get a quick feel". Downloading his version of the CEP Custom hak (which is normally a blank placeholder to players) will enable the extras you're looking for.

I don't however recommend this myself. I and many others use the custom hak as a serverside tool and PWs using it as a player hak can cause conflicts for players that play on multiple modules. (I am assuming Funky's version does have a custom tlk in it for their spells ... if not .. He'll correct me. '>).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               Okay, but you don't just need a hak to implement things like custom spells correctly.  You need a custom talk table, too.  Therein lies my confusion.  Talk tables aren't packaged in haks.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FunkySwerve]

               

kalbaern wrote...
You've misunderstood Funky's post. He's claiming to offer just what you ask for. However, it's optional. His use
of the CEP Custom hak allows folk to log in with nothing more so they can "get a quick feel". Downloading his version of the CEP Custom hak (which is normally a blank placeholder to players) will enable the
extras you're looking for.

Bingo. I'm surprised someone so willing to toss around the word 'amatuer' didn't understand that. And yes, we use a custom tlk for that, and all sorts of things - most recently, for adding additional 'Master Feat' categories, since we use them to sort our legendary leveler feats into like-named subfolders. Speaking of that leveler, while players without the custom hak see 'amateurish' workarounds like commands to list their custom feats taken, players with the hak see the feats in their character sheet, custom icons and all. Going the extra mile to serve a broader slice of the community, by catering to dedicated players,custom content fans and casual droppers-by alike, is not the mark of an amateur, but of someone interested in getting the best of both worlds. Which, of course, is why that custom hak is so darned handy.

I don't however recommend this myself. I and many others use the custom hak as a serverside tool and PWs using it as a player hak can cause conflicts for players that play on multiple modules. (I am assuming Funky's version does have a custom tlk in it for their spells ... if not .. He'll correct me. '>).

That's true, but that problem is inherent in the nature of the hak itself, not our particular use of it (our spells.2da, for example, wouldn't cause anyone else any problems, as it's identical to the bioware one for the publicly available spells, save for, I think, a couple range fixes).  I think the CEP team understood this potential problem when they added it, but did so anyway, because of the enormous upsides. We also haven't had any players complain about the kind of crossover issues you mention, though I do understand the potential. That may simply be because we have our own integrated installer.

Dumping extra serverside content into it is of limited usefulness, given the availability of tools like virusman's resman, available to both win and lin hosts, that allow you to squirrel away all the additional resources your little heart desires. We have a few thousand uti's tucked away ourselves in this fashion. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/smile.png[/smilie]

Funky
               
               

               

                     Modifié par FunkySwerve, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_NorthWolf]

               Personally I dislike the CEP custom hak being used that way for the same reason I dislike overrides: it causes problems when you're playing elsewhere. So I'm in Kalbaern's boat here. Furthermore, anyone willing to download the gargantuan CEP will probably survive the download of a comparatively small 2da/tlk package.