Why do many RP servers hide other PC's level at login?

[Legacy_SuperFly_2000]

               This totally elludes me. Why turn of a perfectly good and helpful built in function like that?

Does it make you feel more hardcore in roleplay?

For me roleplaying is something I do in a party of adventurers heading to a "dungeon". If I am obstructed in finding party members or another party to join the roleplaying will also never take place....as I will just be wandering the streets of a not-so-populated server...perfectly IC...but also perfectly alone...can we agree on this?

Ok maybe some will say...this is OOC information and it can be used in metagaming......so what? The game is FULL of information that can be used for metagaming. I hope you don't attempt to remove/change that as well....

I have a feeling that many players don't want this list to show because they are secretly powerbuilders...or that they think it is cool to play like a red dragon disciple and not wanting other PC's to know that they are really a gimp...

Or they are just scared that someone might PK them if they know their level. PK:ing other PC's for a no good reason is probably not a good idea in the first place though...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 22 septembre 2010 - 12:43 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_FR Mulm]

               

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

For me roleplaying is something I do in a party of adventurers heading to a "dungeon". If I am obstructed in finding party members or another party to join the roleplaying will also never take place....as I will just be wandering the streets of a not-so-populated server...perfectly IC...but also perfectly alone...can we agree on this?

Ok maybe some will say...this is OOC information and it can be used in metagaming......so what? The game is FULL of information that can be used for metagaming. I hope you don't attempt to remove/change that as well....

And for some they like to rp different ways. That though is a different question than what you ask. On every server I know that has implmented this it has helped alleviate headaches for the DMs in charge there. No more cries of powerbuilder or what not. People can take levels in classes that are alignment based without anyone accidently metagaming which happens more than people trying to metagame.

Many people want to remove those other feeds that cause metagaming and have done so and will contuine to develop tools to do so. I am thankful for that. If you do not wish to do so then do not use them.

There is ways to send tells and on most servers there is well known adventuring hang outs, forums and other ways to meet players and characters of said players. The fact that you mention ONLY the list shows that this is a good idea for people to remove it since you seem to not use any other means to judge which folks to ask/meet.

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
I have a feeling that many players don't want this list to show because they are secretly powerbuilders...or that they think it is cool to play like a red dragon disciple and not wanting other PC's to know that they are really a gimp....

EDIT: I removed this because it was a petty response to a petty statement.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par FR Mulm, 22 septembre 2010 - 01:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               The Pros and Cons of hiding Levels/classes



The Cons:

1) Not seeing what level folk are can make it harder to find a group, especially if you are shy or new to a server. That's the only drawback I've seen so far.



The Pros:

1) Griefers (Yes, they are alive and well still) are inherently lazy. They don't want to have to figure out who they can pick on if anyone. They usually prefer servers with few haks and levels/classes displayed on entry so they can jump in quick and become a menace. Finding easy targets is their main motive after all. Hiding this info goes along ways to deterring these type of idiots. Even though this type of behavior is bannable on most PWs, a DM has to catch them, the Admin has to ban them, players have to put up with constant interuptions in the meantime ... so anything that makes idiots go elsewhere upfront isn't all that bad.



2) RP in general can suffer from metagaming when folk spot what your build is. Bad guys know "who" the paladins are, good guys know who the assassins and blackguards are etc... just from logging in. Since many PWs require "Harper Scouts" to be in actual Harper Guilds, that PrC is useless if the levels/classes are not hidden (Its useless skill wise either way though '>).



3) With levels/classes hidden, folk depend more on RP than stats when dealing with each other. I've met countless players over the years that were convinced they had to be at X level to RP on a server. Mainly, near epic. So they power level up and miss out on many interactions until they achieve their "comfort level" and only then RP often or openly. This usually stems from them either playing an evil PC and wanting to be openly evil without an instant smiting or having a fear of PvP. Many players hate PvP and think getting to epicness fast is the best way to then relax and have fun RPing. Server's that hide levels/classes seem to assauge those fears as you can't see who might be a threat bt merely logging in.



On my own PW, we've a tome in our start area so folk can match PC names to player logins to help spot friends playing different PCs from normal. We also encourage our players to send TELLs to folk when looking to group up. Most of our veterans keep a stable of low level PCs they'll swap over to so they can adventure and RP with newer players visiting.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SuperFly_2000]

               

FR Mulm wrote...
On every server I know that has implmented this it has helped alleviate headaches for the DMs in charge there. No more cries of powerbuilder or what not.

So you mean hiding the problem makes everything good? Isn't that just like sticking your head in the ground?

Personally I don't care so much if other players want to max out their PC by ripping some build of the internet.

Also I don't understand self proclaimed roleplay police players who must constantly point out to other players that they are doing it wrong. Probably it is similar players that complain about other players being power builders when they really are just jelous because they didn't think of that. Normally theese type of players are not really good at roleplaying themselves...

FR Mulm wrote...
Many people want to remove those other feeds that cause metagaming and have done so and will contuine to develop tools to do so. I am thankful for that. If you do not wish to do so then do not use them.

I wrote a long article on this in some other thread and was hoping to skip it here...but ok...because you asked....here is the full story:

The thing with deciding what is metagming and what is not when playing a computer roleplaying game is really complex because there are many grey areas. Usually there are functions in the game that have been added to actually make the game playable.

Lets imagine yourself in the world as the PC. You have a lot of senses that you wouldn't have just controlling your "avatar" in the virtual world. To compensate for this you can add things to the view for example.

I will make a very good example here: Lets say a big Rhino comes walking slowly at you from the back in the game world. If you where a normal human in a normal world you would definately hear the Rhino and maybe even smell it. The third person view in NWN shows more than a first person view so you can see the Rhino approaching from the back. Is that metagaming to you?

For me that is just how the game works.

So here are some things that you think that we need to remove from the game because they could lead to metagaming:

- Only first person view should be possible. Seeing things behind you and being able to see around walls could lead to metagaming.
- The minimap should be removed.
- No party chat or party mode..and no player list in game.
- No tells.
- Seeing someone log in or out of the game could lead to metagaming and should be removed.
- Most information in the right side "server information window" should be removed.
- No names above player or monster heads.
- No more "examine" on player, objects or monsters.

....I could go on with this list....

You see where we are heading?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SuperFly_2000]

               @kalbaern,

I think you are very wise and I am pretty sure we have the same view on many things.

This thread is not specifically aimed at your server as I have seen it on a couple others. Just wanted to show my view on things and perhaps try to convince other PW's not to choose this if they dont feel they really need.

I think the amount of true PK'ers on NWN servers theese day are really low compared to what it was before....still I can understand if you feel this is a problem.

As I said...I can live with it. Just would be nice if server admins took a second thought before implementing such a system that hides part of the list though.

I so much recognize some of the things you write. There are always some people who think they need to have max level before they start "roleplaying" and that is really funny isn't it....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FR Mulm]

               

SuperFly_2000 wrote...


I will make a very good example here: Lets say a big Rhino comes walking slowly at you from the back in the game world. If you where a normal human in a normal world you would definately hear the Rhino and maybe even smell it. The third person view in NWN shows more than a first person view so you can see the Rhino approaching from the back. Is that metagaming to you?

At the moment no, it is a limitation of the engine but if you add say screen shake from it rolling towards you or interactive such like then it is fine.

(And honestly you would not see or smell the rhino as much as you think when you think in the real world how people have been killed AND blindsided by rhinos. Google it and you will see what I mean so you might want to pick a better example, lol.)

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
For me that is just how the game works

And for many others it is not.
.

SuperFly_2000 wrote...

So here are some things that you think that we need to remove from the game because they could lead to metagaming:

- Only first person view should be possible. Seeing things behind you and being able to see around walls could lead to metagaming.
- The minimap should be removed.
- No party chat or party mode..and no player list in game.
- No tells.
- Seeing someone log in or out of the game could lead to metagaming and should be removed.
- Most information in the right side "server information window" should be removed.
- No names above player or monster heads.
- No more "examine" on player, objects or monsters.

....I could go on with this list....

You see where we are heading?

Thank you for speaking for me but here is my list and Kalbern also removes these from dungeons as well.
- The minimap should be removed. (Yes it should unless a player has a Map Function or bought a map or uses a spell to help. Same with tab button. God I hate that thing.)

- No more "examine" on player, objects or monsters. (By this I mean CR and immunities.)

Now for the other parts of your list.

- Only first person view should be possible. Seeing things behind you and being able to see around walls could lead to metagaming.
(Ummmm...yes seeing around walls is metagaming. Thanks for helping prove my point.)

- No party chat or party mode..
(Seperated into two things as really it is two different things. I agree with Party mode being allowed just not over a certain distance. There is other functions that Admins can do to allow a seperate Party Chat without Party functions. See TSM and thier Metachannel.)

-No player list in game.
(Player list in game is fine as it does not tell Levels or classes)

- No tells.
(Most would not remove this unless you install one of the metachannels or have another alternate form for Players to talk to each other.)

- Seeing someone log in or out of the game could lead to metagaming and should be removed.
(Why would that be metagaming? Who cares if you see someone log in and out but then again I have also seen a whole server toggle someone hostile when they log in or leave an area because an evil player logged in. So yeah actually it should.)

- Most information in the right side "server information window" should be removed.
(What info are you talking about? Now your trying to make a point that is failing about like termintes in the dark who are choking on the splinters. In other words be more specfic rather than confusing yourself and others.)

- No names above player or monster heads.
(Many people choose to remove this anyways on thier own as it is a option to be able to turn off in your own NWNINI file.)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Khuzadrepa]

               

kalbaern wrote...
The Pros:
2) RP in general can suffer from metagaming when folk spot what your build is. Bad guys know "who" the paladins are, good guys know who the assassins and blackguards are etc... just from logging in. Since many PWs require "Harper Scouts" to be in actual Harper Guilds, that PrC is useless if the levels/classes are not hidden (Its useless skill wise either way though '>).

Personally, it's mostly for this reason.  Having played/DMed on RP servers for the last 7 years, I can tell you this crops up time and time again.  It becomes very hard for players of evil alignments (especially) to run in certain DM plots because certain people allow this metagame knowledge to influence their play.

These are all excellent points though, kalbaern, and I also am implementing tools that help players find other players within their level range to group with, which erases the only Con you mentioned of hiding them.

In fact, I want to personally say thanks to Zebranky for developing the NWNX plug-in that supports this.  It was certainly worth the long wait. '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SuperFly_2000]

               

FR Mulm wrote...
- No more "examine" on player, objects or monsters. (By this I mean CR and immunities.)

I meant exactly what I wrote. NO Examine function what so ever! Much of the text in the description of objects and monsters is in fact information that it is not sure that your PC holds. Hence it could be used for metagaming. Hence remove it.

Oh yeah....this goes for objects in the inventory as well.

FR Mulm wrote...
- Only first person view should be possible. Seeing things behind you and being able to see around walls could lead to metagaming.
(Ummmm...yes seeing around walls is metagaming. Thanks for helping prove my point.)

It is interesting that you avoided to answer this one. Please just tell me...do you prefer to ALLOW third person view or NOT?

FR Mulm wrote...
- No party chat or party mode..
(Seperated into two things as really it is two different things. I agree with Party mode being allowed just not over a certain distance. There is other functions that Admins can do to allow a seperate Party Chat without Party functions. See TSM and thier Metachannel.)

This is REALLY interesting. Now you are starting to talk about game mechanics yourself...before it was only "remove metagaming" that was important... *rolls eyes*

FR Mulm wrote...
-No player list in game.
(Player list in game is fine as it does not tell Levels or classes)

It doesn't tell that sure...but it tells a WHOLE lot else. First it tells that another player is online. So in worst case another player could hunt him down...if a player of a hostile faction is online then you could suspect an imminent attack on the city or similar...this is...like everything else...seriously good OOC information that can be used to metagame...

FR Mulm wrote...
- No tells.
(Most would not remove this unless you install one of the metachannels or have another alternate form for Players to talk to each other.)

What is a Metachannel? Yet another horrible piece of scripting meant to disrupt the wonderful and logic game engine that Bioware has developed for us?

FR Mulm wrote...
- Seeing someone log in or out of the game could lead to metagaming and should be removed.
(Why would that be metagaming? Who cares if you see someone log in and out but then again I have also seen a whole server toggle someone hostile when they log in or leave an area because an evil player logged in. So yeah actually it should.)

Ahh good...we are getting somewhere...soon there won't be much of a game left... *irony*

FR Mulm wrote...
- Most information in the right side "server information window" should be removed.
(What info are you talking about? Now your trying to make a point that is failing about like termintes in the dark who are choking on the splinters. In other words be more specfic rather than confusing yourself and others.)

I dont know how I can explain this but usually the chatlog is on the left and the other log is on the right. It is the log where you see for example who hit who and how much damage they did...and also who was killed.
Actually...when I come to think of it...servers that removed party mode actually dont have this as well.
Anyway..if party mode is as normal then you will actually see if your friend is getting damaged and be able to help...which could lead to *drumroll* metagaming...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 22 septembre 2010 - 06:41 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_SuperFly_2000]

               

Khuzadrepa wrote...

kalbaern wrote...
The Pros:
2) RP in general can suffer from metagaming when folk spot what your build is. Bad guys know "who" the paladins are, good guys know who the assassins and blackguards are etc... just from logging in. Since many PWs require "Harper Scouts" to be in actual Harper Guilds, that PrC is useless if the levels/classes are not hidden (Its useless skill wise either way though '>).

Personally, it's mostly for this reason.  Having played/DMed on RP servers for the last 7 years, I can tell you this crops up time and time again.  It becomes very hard for players of evil alignments (especially) to run in certain DM plots because certain people allow this metagame knowledge to influence their play.

Ok..you kind of aimed at the heart of this.

I will now summarize my ramblings.

The thing is that some players are really picky about roleplaying and being IC, while others are not. I am not saying they are not roleplayers...they still are...only they DO speak occasional OOC (in party chat for example or tells)...and they DO happen to metagame...whether they are doing it on purpose or not.

What I am trying to say here is...that while they are all still roleplayers...there is a scale to it. Neverwinter Connections actually have a 10 grade scale where you choose how "hardcore" the roleplaying will be in your event.

Servers that make a point of being open to all grades of roleplaying...should not go out of their way to remove perfectly good game mechanics to oblige the most hardcore roleplayers because that says pretty much.

And this is the essence of what I am trying to say. Thanks for bringing me on the right track

Yeah sure...some servers dont care if they loose some non-hardcore roleplayers. That is their choice of course. I just think it is sad...and also almost all roleplay servers have turned into social more...because all the players have like played all the quest 100 times each and have 20 maxed out characters so the only thing that still gives them satisfaction is to just sit in town and chat about why the shoe salesman doesn't have shoes for halflings and complain about why other players are roleplaying badly.

A little sour...but thats basically how it is nowdays...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par SuperFly_2000, 22 septembre 2010 - 06:39 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jenna WSI]

               

1) Griefers (Yes, they are alive and well still) are inherently lazy.
They don't want to have to figure out who they can pick on if anyone.
They usually prefer servers with few haks and levels/classes displayed
on entry so they can jump in quick and become a menace. Finding easy
targets is their main motive after all. Hiding this info goes along ways
to deterring these type of idiots. Even though this type of behavior is
bannable on most PWs, a DM has to catch them, the Admin has to ban
them, players have to put up with constant interuptions in the meantime
... so anything that makes idiots go elsewhere upfront isn't all that
bad.

Huh. First time I've heard that, and I never thought of that reason. I like it better than the one for preventing metagaming and such.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FR Mulm]

               

SuperFly_2000 wrote...
.........

Hope you find what your looking for.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par FR Mulm, 22 septembre 2010 - 07:18 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_FR Mulm]

               

Khuzadrepa wrote...

kalbaern wrote...
The Pros:
2) RP in general can suffer from metagaming when folk spot what your build is. Bad guys know "who" the paladins are, good guys know who the assassins and blackguards are etc... just from logging in. Since many PWs require "Harper Scouts" to be in actual Harper Guilds, that PrC is useless if the levels/classes are not hidden (Its useless skill wise either way though '>).

Personally, it's mostly for this reason.  Having played/DMed on RP servers for the last 7 years, I can tell you this crops up time and time again.  It becomes very hard for players of evil alignments (especially) to run in certain DM plots because certain people allow this metagame knowledge to influence their play.

These are all excellent points though, kalbaern, and I also am implementing tools that help players find other players within their level range to group with, which erases the only Con you mentioned of hiding them.

In fact, I want to personally say thanks to Zebranky for developing the NWNX plug-in that supports this.  It was certainly worth the long wait. '>

Some of the good ways I have seen implmented to find players is having a distinct tavern for when players log in rather than a dock or what not.

On FRC, WSI, and TSM you log into a tavern that is one of the main places for players to hang out. All of these are great places and having a friendly barkeep or serving lass helps.

A list that players can add or take themselves off works well too. I have seen one as a Scry tool, a pool in the begining OOC area, and even a server message that listed players who were on that they could contact for advice.

Another point which I did make earlier though with less eloqeunce than Kalbren was that accidental metagaming happens much more than true metagaming. Players do not mean to for the most part. I would say 90% of most players are normal role players who acidently metagame rather than do it on purpose.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SuperFly_2000]

               Just curios...FR Mulm....on a 1-10 scale of roleplaying...where do you consider yourself?



You seem to have such a clear picture of everything. Are you saying that you never metagame?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               I consider myself a decent RPer ... when I feel like it at least. I do have times when I simply want to go kill stuff and be alone. '>



As FR Mulm pointed out, "accidents" happen. Even to those that go out of their way to avoid metagaming. You log into a server with your favorite paladin and see a longtime buddy that's a bard suddenly has a level of PM or Blackguard and try as you might, that information will begin nagging at you. You may be able to brush it off, but most would use it as insider information sooner or later ... whether they realise it or not.



With or without levels/classes displayed on login, Most PWs have some form of new player starting area/town/etc... , so finding folk in your range is easier.



We all metagame though in the end. Its unavoidable not to. We "memorise" encounters and special loot drops. Our PCs often figure out tough puzzles on their first experience with them because our last three PCs mastered the same ones already. '> It happens. With all the unintended metagaming, I find hiding the levels/classes abit refreshing even though at times I like showing them better.



My own "Tome" in my entry area just shows the characters names with the player's logins of who's currently playing there. Its a script cropped from a scrying system I'd tested. I disabled the other info it used to display like race, class, level and where the others were in the world.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_olivier leroux]

               I acknowledge the need for precautions against griefers, exploits and other things that will ruin the fun of a majority of players and I acknowledge that everyone enjoys different things and there is no right or wrong when personal preferences are concerned.

But I admit I'm always a little puzzled as to why "serious roleplay" often seems to be connected to so many rules and restrictions when I thought all it requires apart from some common sense and consideration for your fellow players is the use of your imagination... With the help of your imagination, shouldn't it be possible to live with or ignore all metagaming aspects and uphold the suspension of disbelief nevertheless? (Hopefully) we will never be able to forget it's just a computer game but that doesn't mean we can't have fun and good roleplay sessions, does it? Just as as a book is only paper with print on it and we can still imagine it's a a gate to other worlds.

Personally, if I want to avoid any kind of metagaming and play by super "Hardcore" rules, I just turn off my computer and imagine myself a human being stranded on planet Earth on a quest for the Meaning of Life, doing chores to get by, fighting my own demons on a daily basis or trying to clear out those skeletons in my cupboard. Always striving for a good alignment and heroic stats but mostly failing miserably. But hey, at least I'm no powergamer! And I'm constantly threatened by Permadeath, what a thrill!
'>

All joking aside, I don't mean to irritate, just adding my 2 cents. Myself, I've had the most roleplay fun on servers whose rules were not too restrictive in terms of Action vs. Roleplay or OOC/Metagaming vs. IC/Storytelling. And curiously, I found the players on these servers were all very relaxed, open and friendly and I never experienced any griefing or people complaining.

So have fun everyone and relax, no matter what your preferences are and what servers you choose to play on!
'>