New Ideas to Balance NWN Classes - Have you? (Persistent World)

[Legacy_WhiteTiger]

               

This topic has been created to share ideas how to make all classes equally attractive to the players.

 

We all know that there are better classes to play in the game NWN. And there are classes that are discarded or they will be harder to play. These do not have the best advantages to achieve success in the game.

 

PS: Our discussion isn't to make all them with the equal power force, but work on their strengths and weaknesses.

 

Weakest examples: Ranger, Paladin, Druid, Bard, Monk and Rogue

Strongest examples: Cleric and Fighter

 

Please, give us your suggestion.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

In my view its a waste of time to focus solely on this balance issue between the classes in terms of "power". Ultimately efforts to bring about true power balance is a sisyphusian feat - meaning it is endless, not to mention thankless.

 

Rather than bother with that, I focused my efforts on making all classes equally interesting while playing to their archetypes in the setting. My goal is to make all classes equally attractive to players.

 

Some of this can be achieved by expanding or enhancing game mechanics. Examples: For fighting classes I reworked all of the weapons and armor so that each armor type has varying protection against physical damage types, and thus different weapon and armor combinations can have significantly different results in game. All of this is really adding to the meaningful choices a warrior type character can make. For the skilled classes I have increased the number of useful skills (this does wonders for barbarians and rangers). I gave all religious classes the ability to convert others to their religion, and then added a spell of atonement that requires both the atoner and atonee be of the same religion. Thus roleplaying relgion has some hooks into actual play.

 

Anyway thats how I think about adding new mechanics to the game. I try to create more things that a character can do in game, and spread these out to the strengths of each class so that a player has more to think about than just combat effectiveness.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Terrorble]

               

apparently not what we were looking for

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiteTiger]

               

We use a system of set for each class, all of them have a secret place in the game and your objective is to find out where is it. 

There are missions to get the specific equipment class. There is also an area where anyone can join to craft arrows / bolts with the mined material around. These arrows are great.

 

Ideas to class changes that are on my project:

 

Druid:

- All druid and shifter shapes now also merges "items"

- Merged ability bonuses from items stacks together (aka if pc has ring +2str and belt +3str he gets +5 in polymorph (was +3 before))

- The "items" category now also merges bracers (not gloves - thats a difference)

 

Paladin:

- Holy sword spell now adds the 2d6 positive damage against evil and +5 enhancement bonus

 

Bard:

- Lingering song feat increases duration of the song by 10rounds instead of 5rounds

- Bard song and curse song for level 30 bard increased by +1 (AB,DMG,saves only)

 

PS: Thanks to ShadoOoW to scripting.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

The best way to accomplish this is what henesua suggest, instead of balancing the spells/feats try adding new content that enhances the role of that class.

 

For example, what Ive done for both druid and ranger was to allow them use summons without experience penalty. Also you can "boost" ranger by better chances of finding some crafting placeables/items if you have some crafting skill - for example, in case of "loot craft" like Sinfar, you can increase the chance that the monster drops the craft loot if the killer is ranger. In case of a craft placeable that has inventory, you can increase a chance of how many items will be there based on the class. Etc. Ideas like this are definitely the best way how to balance classes.

 

Yet, you might feel you have to balance some feat or spell. In this case what I would recommend is to keep the DnD rules as much as possible. Many peoples doesn't like Heal/Harm and then they are introducing some weird balance ideas that makes almost no sense. What I suggest is to check the 3.5 rules, if the feat/spell/class isn't better there and implement it based on those rules.

 

Its exactly the changes like Terrobble proposed that immediately cause me to lose interest of that module/server and Im definitely not the only one. Things like "improved invisibility adds 10+(intelligence modifier)% concealment are in my opinion extremely stupid and makes no sense. 3.5 changes duration of the improved invisibility to round/level which is in my opinion way better solution then changing the % based on some weird formula. When the 3.5 definition doesn't suit me or its not possible to implement at all, then Im trying to balance it on my own but in a way that is consistent with the content of the DnD rules.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Btw, some of the ideas to improve classes I found on various persistent worlds.

 

1. Ambush resting system and the lessened chance to trigger ambush based on a character classes (ranger, druid, barbarian has lesser chance than others). (source The Three Towns (3T) which is gone now afaik)

 

2. Limited resting to certain places (and usually with requirements as food) - is common choice to balance the casters on roleplaying persistent worlds. However in gameplay this affect noncasters exactly the same and increase a need for healing. That way or another the impact on gameplay and balance is positive.

 

3. Tracking system to allow rangers track. (Havent seen in practice but its definitely out there)

 

4. Thieves guild, Druid grove, Arcane guild, Warrior guild,  various adventure guilds... class-only areas with vendors, quests etc. - is a great idea how to improve playing certain classes.

 

5. Class-specific items with restriction on an actual number of levels that cannot be used with UMD. Common technique how to improve some classes, however often produce unwanted results boosting classes to much and the items are already there and its hard to change them back. Actually, it should be well designed from the start as changing such items multiple times is always a bad practice. If you like this idea be sure you have enough experiences with item properties and item power to avoid this issue.

 

6. Class-specific crafting system. Aka, only ranger can skin creatures and tan/cure the hide.

 

7. Well designed monster type distribution can significally help playing a certain classes. Lots of undead gives big advantage to the paladins and clerics, lots of animals makes playing druid/ranger easier. Also plant creatures and oozes are creatures that druid has focus against but this is not standard rather than spell modification from my community patch project (which reflects the 3.5 rules). Neccessary to point out there isn't many plant and ooze creatures out there but you can workaround this with the barkskin method. Basically you choose suitable creature skin, apply barkskin visual effect and you have a "plant" creature.

 

8. Hidden rooms, treasuries. Great addition for the rogue class.

 

 

Other ways how to improve balance that I uses:

 

A. Instead of changing certain spells, change the spell list add some new spells: example: spike growth and barkskin to the ranger, remove curse to the paladin, gust of wind to druid.

 

B. Create new spells, I usually choosing such that are only available to one or two class as wizards/sorcerers/clerics doesn't need more choices imo. Example: Longstrider (druid/rang), Goodberry (druid), Magic stone (druid/cler), Shillelag (druid), Fire seeds (druid), Shout (bard) etc. The 3.5 SRD is great source for this.

 

C. Ditto with feats.

 

D. Ditto with skills, for example Survival is great skill that can be added which would improve the nature classes such as ranger, druid and barbarian.

 

However these changes usually needs hak packs, which might not be a possibility for everyone.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiteTiger]

               

A guild to all class are the one of the first thing that all PW should have. This make all classes more attractive to players, but everything depends on the type of project that is being done. Particularly your suggestions quite fit in my project and some of them are already included.

In many projects there are classes that are ignored in the character setup. However, some classes are used for multiclass throughout the game. It takes work to make all of them attractive, suggestions help a lot for those who have no ideas.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Mad Poet]

               

I tried to follow pathfinders example on Avernostra. Arcane casters have a D6 HD instead of D4. Increased the HD for the Rogue and Bard to D8. Improved Paladin skill points to 4+Int. Added 2 more skills points per level to the bard. 

 

Only thing I want to do that I haven't figured out how is to remove Cleric's access to Heavy Armor and just give them light/medium proficiency like the druids.

 

Not a lot can be done for monk. D10 HD is too much for a 3/4 BAB class IMHO.

 

Fighters are fine as they are to me. Only thing I'd change is to give them Intimidate. That seems rather silly for fighters not to have.

 

I also removed arcane spell failure for light armor for all classes in the server. 

 

Personally I only find balance being an issue if PvP is a major part of your server. If everyone is cooperative for the most part and tend to adventure together balance is kinda less relevant. I mean don't you want the guy next to you to be as awesome as possible?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

Personally I only find balance being an issue if PvP is a major part of your server. If everyone is cooperative for the most part and tend to adventure together balance is kinda less relevant. I mean don't you want the guy next to you to be as awesome as possible?

 

I disagree. Balance matters for a variety of reasons, but trying to approach it primarily from a power perspective misses the point of why anyone should attempt to balance the classes.

 

One reason why balance matters is that players are not spending much time thinking about how awesome are the other PCs next to them. What a player wants is to feel important, to contribute something, to have a moment to shine. If another player dominates everything in the game, you don't get much chance to do anything of value.

 

In a game where every class has something that it can bring to the table, then the choice between classes comes down to what you want your role to be, rather than figuring out what power build you need to put together to be relevant in the game.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Mad Poet]

               

I disagree. Balance matters for a variety of reasons, but trying to approach it primarily from a power perspective misses the point of why anyone should attempt to balance the classes.

 

One reason why balance matters is that players are not spending much time thinking about how awesome are the other PCs next to them. What a player wants is to feel important, to contribute something, to have a moment to shine. If another player dominates everything in the game, you don't get much chance to do anything of value.

 

In a game where every class has something that it can bring to the table, then the choice between classes comes down to what you want your role to be, rather than figuring out what power build you need to put together to be relevant in the game.

 

Seems stressful to worry about.

 

It's important to make sure no one class has a blinding 'PLAY ME AND ONLY ME' bulb floating above their name. But in the end two people can play the exact same character and have two very different results doing so.

 

If you've got nothing but players who stress about the minutae of their +1's and what their DPS is and you want a roleplay environment... well they probably shouldn't shop for apples at the meat market, ya know. 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

Seems stressful to worry about.

 

It's important to make sure no one class has a blinding 'PLAY ME AND ONLY ME' bulb floating above their name. But in the end two people can play the exact same character and have two very different results doing so.

 

If you've got nothing but players who stress about the minutae of their +1's and what their DPS is and you want a roleplay environment... well they probably shouldn't shop for apples at the meat market, ya know. 

I have no idea what you are responding to. Whatever it is that stresses you out in my post remains unclear. Care to elucidate?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiteTiger]

               

Yeah, there are classes that has a blinding bulb 'Play me and only me' floating above their name and I also agree that some classes need to feel important to the group and it can't change (the last class can't play without the group or alone).

 

1. How to remove Cleric's acess to Heavy Armor and just give them Light/Medium proficiency like the druids?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Terrorble]

               

cls_feat_cler.2da line 12:  under the list columm, change the 3 (granted on level-up) to

 

**** if you don't want them to be able to choose it at all on a cleric level

0 if you want it selectable as a normal feat

1 if you want it selectable as a normal or bonus feat

2 only available as a bonus feat

 

drop the new cls_feat_cler.2da into your override folder and you're done.

 

*edit*

I think henesua's post below is saying that this type of 2da edit would require any players connecting to the server to also have the 2da in their override to work. Please correct me if that isn't it.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

Keep in mind that Terrorble's solution has some limitations.

 

For other players to use it you should put it in a HAK.

If you are making this change in a multiplayer module, this change will not be in effect during character creation with HAK only. You will also need to direct players to put the 2DA in their override during character creation.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiteTiger]

               

Exactly. It's multiplayer, however, we can't talk about downloads if we're talking about my project, which is a NO-HAK module. Some changes which might not be a possibility for everyone, as Shadooow said.

The idea seems to be usefull for HAK modules developers. Thanks for resolution. Henesua's say: "You also need to direct players to put the 2DA in their override during character creation.".

I thought that it was a requirement to enter in game.