Ranged and Expertise?

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Pay particular attention to this:

Lazarus Magni wrote...

• Combat modes are canceled when a character leaves combat (e.g. the current combat target dies and no other enemies are in range) and when a character takes a non-combat action (such as movement, excepting movement made without breaking combat). Combat modes can be activated while a character is standing still, and will not be canceled until some non-combat activity is initiated.
  The combat modes in Neverwinter Nights are the following.
  
  
  
  
  
  • expertise (and improved expertise)
    
    
    
  • http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Combat_mode
    
    

               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 29 mars 2013 - 03:27 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               

ffbj wrote...

For one thing it makes no sense, in that it is not what expertise is, but lots of people do things that make no sense in these games. You could alter AC/AB on unequip and if the person has a ranged weapon equipped expertise is activated if some int has been set on them by activating some item as suggested. Actually moving with a ranged weapon and having it active would be more in line with the original idea of expertise. You are moving so you are harder to hit and not being stationary makes it more difficult to hit something else. Unequipping the ranged weapon removes expertise, but it would still be on until the item is clicked to remove/delete the int expertise set to 1.

I am pretty sure I don't need to justify my request to you given the context of the world I am working with. The modification would need to be justified to the players of that world. I am pretty sure the players of Av3 would understand the impetus behind this requested modification (at least any who have tried to play ranged characters.)

Thanks for the suggestion, but that won't work for us. We don't want it to be a static bonus.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 29 mars 2013 - 03:41 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...
A combat mode is a toggled state that a character maintains in combat. Only one combat mode can be active at a time; toggling on a second mode will cancel the first. Combat modes are canceled when a character leaves combat (e.g. the current combat target dies and no other enemies are in range) and when a character takes a non-combat action (such as movement, excepting movement made without breaking combat). Combat modes can be activated while a character is standing still, and will not be canceled until some non-combat activity is initiated.
The combat modes in Neverwinter Nights are the following.

There is nothing false with these statements.  They are, however, incomplete.  You can activate a combat mode in the middle of any non-combat task.  So, if you clicked on the opposite side of the screen to move, you could then activate expertise and be protected for the entire journey across the screen until you clicked to move again.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               WhiZard, just shut up.  Sir Lazarus Magni the Awesome has pronounced his judgment - Expertise cannot be used while moving.  Ergo, you are wrong.  Do not dare contradict his Lordship Magni.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I am pretty sure I don't need to justify my request to you given the context of the world I am working with. The modification would need to be justified to the players of that world. I am pretty sure the players of Av3 would understand the impetus behind this requested modification (at least any who have tried to play ranged characters.)

Thanks for the suggestion, but that won't work for us. We don't want it to be a static bonus.

I find it interesting you rewrote your original (extremely hostile) response.  In an attempt to be charitable, I'll assume it's because you realized that you were basically a complete jerk - even if you think ffbj was being very patronizing or whatever, your reply was insanely worse.

Again, in the spirit of charity, I'll enlighten your misunderstanding about Expertise (though I still find it amusing that you are so sure that I am wrong about something that's fairly obvious).  Here are three ways to move with Expertise active:

1. Click on another enemy - Expertise will stay active while you run across the room to them
2. Click on a placeable (like a door or chest) - Expertise will stay active while you run across the room to it
3. After clicking on a location to move, hit Expertise - Expertise will activate and stay active while you run to the spot
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Wow, thanks for showing everyone your an even bigger jerk than me MM.

I edited my post, because yes it was a bit harsh at first. I suppose you have never said anything you though better of the next day?

And ok... so you can move with expertise under certain circumstances. It is not a static buff however, and I would not want to see it become one for ranged players.

*Sir Lazarus gets out his sword and dubs MM supreme Troll of the knighthood order ****eous*

P.S. Essentially what I had said to ffbj was being condesending, and telling someone their idea is "silly" is a pretty crappy thing to do. And I stand by that. The same thing goes for you and even more so MM. You think you can just treat people like crap because they are looking for advice on here? That's the type of stuff that really makes this community look bad.

P.P.S. And I am not sure why, just because I actually affected some positive change in this community, you MM (and others) feel the need to be pissed off about it. It is so disappointing some people in this community are so incredibly shallow, trifling, and petty.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 30 mars 2013 - 01:34 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               You, MM, are the truest essence of a troll. You forum stalk anyone you don’t like or who’s views are contrary to yours, and under the veiled guise of helpfulness, with strong condescending undertones, you seek to elicit an emotional response from them to make them look bad, and satisfy your own sick personal amusement. And you are a coward, you see a hothead like me and think you have easy pickings for your narcissism, and twisted enjoyment of treating someone badly, or making them look bad. Please leave me alone, and stop harassing me. I do not want or need you help, nor is this a discussion which affects the community as a whole (of which of course you would be entitled to chime in on.) This was simply me seeking advice from the community on a modification that could benefit the PW I am involved in development. There is no need for your comments or input here if they aren’t constructive, or your desire to settle some personal vendetta.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...

Wow, thanks for showing everyone your an even bigger jerk than me MM.

I'm being a bit snarky because you laughed at me and indicated you thought I was an idiot, yes.  And also seem dishonest (see below).

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I edited my post, because yes it was a bit harsh at first. I suppose you have never said anything you though better of the next day?

I have.  But when I go back and edit it, I mention that I edited it instead of apparently hoping no one remembers the original post and everyone forgets it happened.  That just seems very dishonest.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

And ok... so you can move with expertise under certain circumstances. It is not a static buff however, and I would not want to see it become one for ranged players.

Under basically *any* circumstance.  The *only* circumstance where you can't is if you're moving with the wasd keys and such.

By "static buff," do you mean the thing ffbj said about having it automatically on while using a ranged weapon, the thing I said about toggling it, or both?

Lazarus Magni wrote...

P.S. Essentially what I had said to ffbj was being condesending, and telling someone their idea is "silly" is a pretty crappy thing to do. And I stand by that. The same thing goes for you and even more so MM. You think you can just treat people like crap because they are looking for advice on here? That's the type of stuff that really makes this community look bad.

If you're going to semi-try to quote someone, you might want to actually quote a word they actually used.  He never said silly.  He said it made no sense (not an important distinction overall except for the fact you actually put quotes around "silly" when he never used that word).  I agree that ffbj's first sentence was less than ideal and could be ready very uncharitably.  Your original response was still completely out of line and incredibly toxic.

And no, I don't think I "can just treat people like crap ebcause they are looking for advice on here."  I was actually quite helpful until you started claiming I was wrong about something when I wasn't and you were insanely rude to ffbj.

That's the kind of stuff that really makes people not want to help, when you spit in their face.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

P.P.S. And I am not sure why, just because I actually affected some positive change in this community, you MM (and others) feel the need to be pissed off about it. It is so disappointing some people in this community are so incredibly shallow, trifling, and petty.

What positive change are you even talking about?  Serious question that isn't an attempt to mock you, I literally don't know what you are referring to here.

P.S. Which also means I can't be pissed off about something I don't even know about.

Lazarus Magni wrote...

You, MM, are the truest essence of a troll. You forum stalk anyone you don’t like or who’s views are contrary to yours

Say what?

So because you made a thread on a forum that I read (the Scripting forum) involving a feat that I've thought at length about (Expertise), I must be forum stalking you?  Other than this thread, your "Death of NWN 1" thread, and the thread you use to promote your PW, I have no idea what else you do on this forum offhand.  I am not following your movements and have viewed your profile a whole two times (ever).

Lazarus Magni wrote...

There is no need for your comments or input here if they aren’t constructive, or your desire to settle some personal vendetta.

I was completely constructive until you basically called me an idiot and were incredibly rude to ffbj.

Even after that, I've still been somewhat constructive and offered accurate information on stuff you demonstrated ignorance about.

I have no overarching vendetta against anyone (except rogueknight333, that bastard).  I don't care enough about you to have a vendetta.  And I'm not going to bother responding to any future accusations.  If you want constructive help from me in the future, send me a PM indicating that, otherwise I'm not going to respond to anything by you unless it's a larger involved issue affecting the entire community.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               I laughed at you? What are you some insecure 12 year old? I LOLed at your comment. I didn't LOL @ you.

I seem dishonest? Because I edited a post? Sorry I never saw the disclaimer on the edit button saying, if you use this, you will be perceived as being dishonest.

Moving while in expertise under basically any circumstance? Except for the 2 which are the most commonly used methods of movement (clicking with the mouse on the ground somewhere, or using wsad.)

If it's toggleable it's not static is it?

Semi quote? The word you are looking for is paraphrase. And regardless of an obsessive compulsive need to hyper quote or not, the general meaning was the same. Silly is equivalent to non-sensible.

What positive change? Hmm iduno, what on earth could I be talking about?

LOL I promoted "my PW" on a "death of NWN 1" thread? What the hell are you talking about? I absolutely never did any such thing. First of all, I am not even the owner of Av3 any more, and the one time I mentioned Av3 in that thread was to illustrate the sad state of action servers (when a PW with 7 players on is the top action and PW action server with the most players on), and how sad I thought that was compared to us having similar numbers not 4 months ago and were ranked 20th for those genres. That's hardly promoting Av3, as much as illustrating the detrimental impact of the loss of the GS service. And if you think otherwise you are seriously looking at everything I say through some seriously jaded glasses.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 31 mars 2013 - 04:48 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Nuff said.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lazarus Magni, 30 mars 2013 - 11:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

Continual Flame

Spell level: cleric 3; sorcerer/wizard 2

Innate level: 2
School: illusion
Components: verbal, somatic
Range: touch
Area of effect: single creature or item
Duration: permanent
Save: none
Spell resistance: no

Description: This creates a magical flame that burns as bright as a torch until dispelled. It can be cast on any item that can be equipped to create a permanent source of light.

Oops, wrong definition.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               Yikes.  Yeah right I never said it was silly just that it made no sense.  I suppose I should have said it made no sense to me.  Btw the way I never read the supposedly incredibly rude original response from Lazarus (according to MM), so no offense taken there.  Besides he removed it.  I must admit I imagined that my reply would in all likelyhood start a flaming response, so for that I am guilty for pushing someones button, and for that I appologise  to Larazus and all others in this thread for being uncharitable.  Interesting thread though.
Oh btw the approach I was suggesting would still be on while moving and if you don't want that on, expertise, then my approach would not work.  I just seems to me that while moving you are harder to hit, oh well. Of course the confusing thing about combat actions is that they don't cover all the scenarios.  That is once you are in combat, is when these restrictions apply, of course no two combat conditions can be active at the same time.  So if I am in combat and have expertise up then moving will cancel it, as Lazarus points out.  But as MM, and others say I could be out of combat activate expertise while moving...etc...

Again it was not my intention to elicit angry responses though I still feel it makes less sense for archers to have it.  It could be resonably defended if you are giving the archer the same minus to their AB.  I was 100% sure that I would get a negative response, apparently quite rude, and for that reason I should not have said It did not make any sense.
Sorry 'bout that.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               You can actually move and have Expertise/Improved Expertise active just as "MM" has pointed out. Its an unintended flaw in the NWN mechanics is all. Click on a target to attack or click on the ground half way across a map and then quickly activate your desired mode of expertise and you'll enter it while still moving. You can also activate an expertise mode while stationary and then target an NPC to attack with a melee weapon or unarmed and you'll move towards them with the effect active as well. Activating an expertise mode and targetting a placeable or door will leave it active as you move. These work even with the Module switch to disable expertise abuse enabled.

Expertise is lost only after the following:
- No more attackers within melee range and expertise modes turn off.
- Equipping a ranged weapon (even when moving as described above).
- Clicking on terrain to move after expertise is enabled or moving using the keyboard (W,A,S,D,Q,E).
- Resting.

Using 3 seprate methods? I don't use exploits, so I am not sure what you are talking about here. By default you can not use expertise while moving (except when already engaged with a target who is fleeing). I will give you 100 to 1 odds on that bet. Again... I actually play this game, and don't cheat so... yeah, I am fairly confident in that.

Whether or not what I and the rest have described is "cheating" is up to each Module Designer and PW Admin to determine. I do see it as exploiting a flaw in the game mechanics myself. However, with no way to reliably halt the practice or even easily police it (DMs would have to constantly be checking a PC's Armor class constantly to see if they are abusing expertise or not) I accept it ... mostly. Using the keyboard for movement has its own set of abuses (especially in PvP or to move "faster" whilst encumberered) that I've had to ignore ... mostly.

Lastly, just because a "loophole" or outright "exploit" in the game mechanics isn't pointed out in the NWNWiki doesn't mean it doesn't exist. The Wiki Pages rarely (if ever) point out such flaws (which I approve of them omitting).
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

kalbaern wrote...

I do see it as exploiting a flaw in the game mechanics myself. However, with no way to reliably halt the practice or even easily police it (DMs would have to constantly be checking a PC's Armor class constantly to see if they are abusing expertise or not) I accept it ... mostly.

If Expertise always activated instantly when you hit it, I might understand this sentiment - but you HAVE to hit Expertise before you start attacking (and likely while running toward a target) or else you'll spend a combat round not using it.  Same for Power Attack or Rapid Shot or Flurry or Defensive Casting or any mode.

No one would complain that activating Power Attack/Rapid Shot/Flurry/Defensive Casting ahead of time is exploitative - because none of those offer benefits when not actually attacking/casting.  Expertise does, however, which is the "problem."  I also loathe the idea of (Improved) Expertise in general for several reasons, but that's a matter for another thread.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               Well I would just like to say I am sorry to everyone too. I think the previous bad blood between MM and I is so thick, it doesn’t take more than a drop of a match to get it to boil over. And MM, I do appreciate you backing off and giving me some time to cool off.

I am going through a major transition in my real life, back to work after a very long time of un-employment, and it is taking me a while to adjust. I would like NWN1 to be recreational, and something I enjoy, and not have my interactions with some community members make me see red. It’s certainly not healthy for me, or the community.

I do ask you, MM (and others who don’t seem to like me), to please refrain from intentionally trying to goad me, or push my buttons. I will certainly do the same. We all love this game, or we wouldn’t still be involved with it, so it should be something we all get enjoyment from, and not be something that stirs up bad feelings.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               "That's Life" - Frank Sinatra