Author Topic: Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)  (Read 12209 times)

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #615 on: December 17, 2015, 08:33:42 pm »


               

Two coffees today and I have the basic stream sections, and the code for building them, 100% done. Now to just build the picker for half-edge stream ends and I'm done with streams except for special group tiles.


 


Well almost. I have noise on the z-axis, but no noise in the length of the stream. I think I can create some stream bend tiles mechanically instead of by hand, but really, I could do it manually at this point and do it faster. I guess knowing which job is quicker is part of the job.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #616 on: December 18, 2015, 04:53:14 pm »


               

If anybody is interested, Sword Coast Legends on steam is 50% off this weekend, and free to play until Sunday. I pulled it down yesterday to try it. It took me all night to install it, and isn't as fun as I had hoped. It looks like Baldur's gate and the plot runs a lot like OC NWN2. The gameplay is about as bad as Pool of Radiance, and it seems to have as many bugs.


 


I ended up turning down all the graphics so I could actually get plot text faster. It also greatly reduced battle-to-conversation loading times. Not sure why they picked that method, but it seriously takes away from the action of the game (not that it has a lot).


 


Neither high end or low end graphics has anything I was interested in using to base new NWN models from. The gameplay videos before it came out actually look a lot better than the game actually is.


 


Still, if you feel like slug-crawlling through the linear plot, or building with it, definitely go check it out.


 


My number one complaint is that the whole thing moves at one time. The trees, the bushes, and sometimes even the camera. It just makes you sea sick to play it. If each tree moved individually to wind, and bushes shook randomly or in location-driven gusts, it would be not only more realistic, but something a bit better at keeping your food down.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Kendaric Varkellen

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #617 on: December 18, 2015, 06:53:39 pm »


               

Just wait until you give their editor a try...


 


While it's absolutely user-friendly (anyone can build with it), it's also horribly limited in functionality.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Jedijax

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #618 on: December 19, 2015, 05:18:51 am »


               

Not to kick it while its down, but... reviews were very low on that one. To be honest, I don't think I've seen a good D&D game since NWN and maybe NWN2. Dragon Age should have been it but... well, you know... franchise keeping is costly and we got that and Knights of the Mass Effect.




               
               

               
            

Legacy_DM Frayne

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #619 on: December 19, 2015, 02:30:13 pm »


               

Well this tileset is about as cool as it gets.


 


My Native American themed mod is set in a fantasy variant of North & South Dakota with a bit of Montana and Wyoming thrown in so this would be fantastic for the highland bits.


 


Best of luck finishing it.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #620 on: December 19, 2015, 03:03:23 pm »


               

Still going strong, but much slower now. Still very hopeful.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_YeoldeFog

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #621 on: December 19, 2015, 04:15:12 pm »


               

I think it's time for a nice screenshot MD! *waiting* '<img'>



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #622 on: December 27, 2015, 03:16:18 pm »


               

So over Christmas, I purchased and played, all the way through, Sword Coast Legends. It had some parts I was really interested in, but mostly for the visuals. The gameplay seemed to get better as it went along, and it only crashed about 7 times without reason, and once with an error log. Overall, I guess that is better than Pool of Radiance, by far.


 


I was really interested in the underdark areas, because their Forlorn Cliffs region had a lot of what I want to incorporate into my middle and deeper dark areas, with the bridges and chasms, as well as the open-seeming spaces away from the main walkable area, or otherwise down inside chasms. That region, as well as some of the other cavern areas, have some false perspective sections that I found very interesting. At one location, you look down into a hole and see a miniature tunnel and bridge over a stream. The distance down is less than a tile width, yet the false perspective gives the feeling that it is at least 10x deeper. A larger region of such would look far more impressive, because as it stands, sometimes you wonder if what you are looking at is simply a cross-tunnel for smaller species.


 


After playing all the way through, I started checking out the DM area builder. As mentioned, it is fairly user friendly, but has little to no customization available. When building "dungeon" type environments, I enjoyed the room-to-room feel, and can see how building 1x1 or 2x1, or even 3x3 room sections would make for a very nice tileset, especially when the only other terrain you might have access to in the editor is the corridor crosser. It left no room for height changes in itself, but if converted over to NWN style maps, it could very easily lend itself to such.


I found the "area" style areas not at all spectacular. As much as I enjoy the Forlorn Cliffs area, as well as some of the other larger areas, the inability to customize the area layout AT ALL was maddening. Combined with the inability to zoom out in such a way you could view the entire area, it makes overland-style maps nearly impossible to like.


 


There is definite potential for much of this to be converted over to NWN, and I'd really like to try my hand at some of the cave systems they use. It reminds me of the stuff I was doing with hexagonal mapping, which didn't really turn out. Together though, everything I've got already, and what I'm seeing in this game, possibly gives me the ability to create something like this:

136f50b1.jpg


...just as long as the walk-under parts are filled and unwalkable, or the walk-over parts are broken or somehow unreachable.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_OldTimeRadio

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #623 on: December 27, 2015, 03:56:58 pm »


               

I love the pic of that diorama.  You know, I don't think there's anything stopping you from one-offing a little setting like that, but maybe where the upper portions of the tile(s) lean away from the lower ones (to accomodate the walkmesh) and then force the camera into a side-scroller view.  Would love to see some old fashioned parallax scrolling in NWN.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #624 on: December 27, 2015, 04:47:08 pm »


               

For "dungeon" type settings, where there is no skybox, I was trying to figure out a good ratio to trick the viewer into thinking short distance was much longer. Having seen at least one way of doing it in SCL, I was also thinking to do a vertical bowing, based on some artwork I was using for crags, which come from a set of Lovecraftian concept art for something (not sure what). If I can assume that the maximum height in an area is 140 meters, and the maximum depth is 30 m (maybe it is 25 based on my exploration in the badlands tileset), perhaps I can create a set of room-like tiles which bend inward as they go up. Using two types of "surround" tile, I can display a panoramic deeper area, as well as a very hard enclosing surface around, and even into, other walkable tiles.


While trying to flesh this out this morning, I came up with these terrains:


 


Chasm - a base terrain with nothing but stalagmites and strewn boulders in a pit. Instead of EVER reaching the bottom, you'd traverse a series of bridges from tower to tower, with occasional islands ringing a larger -tite-mite column. The column an also serve as stairs to a higher level which connects at this point.


Chasm Bridge Crosser - as mentioned above, this bridge passes from column to column, or touches a few taller stalagmite mounds from below. Tower parts within the bridge system can offer ceiling regions visible within the visible depth of the environment.


 


Cave/Solid rock - a base terrain of enclosed unwalkable region, into which you place corridors or prefab cave rooms. One or two of the cave rooms should open into other terrain types.


Cave Corridor (type A: thin tunnel) - This thin tunnel represents mine shaft quality tunnels between dungeon style rooms


 


Cave Corridor (type B:  wide tunnel) - This wide short tunnel represents an expanse of natural cavern and has a nice flat bottom made of hard-packed debris. Additional placeables could be built to turn any given wide tunnel into a partially collapsed cave run with fallen cave-clouds or other formations which have come loose form the ceiling.


 


Cave Corridor (type C: lower chasm) - This thin tunnel, with no visible ceiling, represents the bottom of a chasm, or deep drainage cleft in the surrounding rock. The walls could come in some really interesting shapes which block 1st person, or top-down view at many points. This corridor could also be used as a height transition change if T-tile are created with a ledge system.


 


Cave Rooms - A great number of cavern rooms, both natural, or man-made grottoes, should be created in the size range from 1x1 for closet spaces, 2x2 for common combat locations or treasure filled places, 2x1 for unique transitional halls, 2x4 for unique transitional rooms, 3x3 for smaller boss rooms and great features, such as camps, or 5x5 for greater boss rooms and fantastic locations. Additional 3x3 rooms can bridge the transition to other areas, such as up and out, down a spiraling tube, great stairwells, or portal locations.


 


Surround Wall - an unwalkable terrain which leans into adjacent tiles using a hyperbolic curve, fully blocking view and access to adjacent areas, or off-map regions. surround wall can also lend a ceiling mass which can be seen, even in the darkness of a cavern.


 


Surround Chasm - a very deep region that trails off into darkness. The expanse is so wide that you cannot make out any features of another side. Down below, there may be mushrooms or other things visible. Everything at a distance should be down-scaled to exaggerate distance. This terrain should only be placed near chasm terrain, so that the player can never look directly at the scale offset in an adjacent tile.


 


Dome Cavern - a base tile which can go inside the solid cave tile, or out inside the chasm base terrain. This region easily lends itself to simple height transitions, or 2 at once, without getting in the way of any other transition types. This is also the best place to create building structures, or open markets.


 


Dark Lake - A water terrain type which you cannot (and would not want to) enter. This would be available to a flat walkable terrain, such as the dome cavern, only.


 


There is no need for water within the dungeon areas, and no need for stream type crossers, as the room-based areas can have them built in already.


Since everything will be corridor-connected, doors, secret doors, and open hallways will need to have standardized door placements.


Given the quantity of tiles available in all SCL tilesets, there is enough variety to give a great base to this kind of underdark dungeon system. All the art I have downloaded over the last two years related to caves, as well as 3d maps and panoramic views of actual cave rooms (from national park service stuff), will give an almost unlimited supply of new tile groups which can be released in packages later, after the base is available.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Tarot Redhand

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #625 on: December 27, 2015, 08:14:42 pm »


               

You realise, of course, that no turgid underdark lake is complete without an Arboleth (1st ed appearance preferred) or 2. Are there any in NwN?


 


TR



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Drewskie

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #626 on: December 27, 2015, 08:36:43 pm »


               

Project Q has a nice Aboleth model.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #627 on: December 27, 2015, 09:30:04 pm »


               

If you look at the "small" regions in SCL, there is a scene with a hammerhead shark swimming by. The entire map is one tile group, as far as NWN would calculate it, and so the shark is not much more than an animated feature on one of the tiles. The same could be done for many of the unreachable areas in such an underdark set. I noticed in Drakensang Online, they did the same thing, basically tying a school of fish, or a shark, to a single tile. Misplacement of the tiles in Drakensang also caused the shark on the one island to swim directly under the land in a few places. Fish schools would also disappear directly into a rock face and come out the other side. But I could see, with a bit more care, such a tile group being useful in NWN, possibly one with a bunch of water-breathing enemies perched below the surface, including aboleth slaves.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #628 on: December 27, 2015, 10:39:31 pm »


               

Quick question, hoping somebody knows off the top of their head: Can a door straddle a tile boundary without causing walkmesh issues, and without trigger complications? If so, can you give an example of a tileset which does this without flaw.


 


The reason I ask is that the SCL tileset seems to have a door hole at EVERY side of every tile, and their single-tile rooms equate to 2x2 rooms in NWN. To clone these, I either have to change their scale up to 3x3 so that the hallway is centered as in SCL, or shift a doorway right or left a tile, OR... make doorways in the centers of tile boundaries, and then make corridor tilegroups instead of corridor crossers which stand apart from the rest. That third option is actually fairly promising. Really, how many corridors do we normally have anyway? Maybe 3? And they only go straight, corner, T, or X. This would open up diagonal corridors as well as drainpipe (U) shapes, and offset T shapes. Might be my imagination, but it seems like doing corridors as a tilegroup might also inspire a bit of creativity, where single tile corridors are confined to plainness.


 


Another reason I ask about the walkmeshes is that if you look closely in SCLs location editor, you can see that every tile has 4 exits, with the only exception being corridor tiles, and what appears to be a 4x2 tilegroup with a ramp in the middle. Look closely, and you can see the seamline where they insert a placeable door block in all the unused room-to-room openings. This confuses me, because they only offer three door types in the editor: open, door, and secret. Why not offer "sealed", and allow users to change the flow path of the dungeon? Perhaps they didn't want to write a path checking mechanism for builders who accidentally prevent movement to the end of any dungeon by accidentally sealing a passage. Speaking of sealed passages, it seems like they should have provided collapsed passage as an option.


 


I think what I'd like to do is duplicate these tiles as closely as possible, so that really just comes down to a walkmesh issue. What does it do exactly when you block a listed edge-exit on a tile with a placeable? Does it fail, or does it seek out an off-tile path as a bypass?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #629 on: December 28, 2015, 02:06:45 am »


               

I just checked in the area builder, and the SCL "tile" is approximately 10 meters (up to 12m). This would make for very easy transition to NWN content, give or take that door placement.