Author Topic: Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)  (Read 12263 times)

Legacy_Frith5

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #315 on: September 10, 2015, 02:13:10 am »


               

Wives say the darndest things! '<img'>


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #316 on: September 11, 2015, 12:45:57 am »


               

Having fun documenting this as I go. I'll have to update the basic tileset tutorial when this is done.


 


So far, I've completed a comprehensive diagram showing how to make what I call shared crossers, inclusive crossers, and exclusive crossers, as well as all the data to mix 2, 3, or 4 terrain types together, and the three types of crossers allowed on those tile combos.


 


So here is what those are:


 


A Shared Crosser is any type of crosser which can go between any two terrains, including the same adjacent terrain. For example, you can place my new forest crossers in stead of forest terrain, and that forest can be placed on rocky ground, or on plain ground, but can also come out of rock faces caused by a height change, even if that is stunted. In all situations, there are 15 tiles required to make a full set of crossers for any given corner combination. For example, if you have a tile corner combination of ABBB, you have 15 tiles with crossers on them with this corner combination to fulfill the crosser's needs. Because any basic tileset with a height transition has not just ABBB, but also AABB, AAAB, and ABBA (and sometimes BAAB), as well as AAAA, you need a lot of tiles to finish a complete set of shared crossers. Expect to make about 75 tiles, if not 90, just to combine two corner types. I would suggest rarely using this tile type, unless you intend to automate the process of tile making.


 


Less strenuous is the Exclusive Crosser. If shared means that any two corner terrains can share this crosser, exclusive means that only equal adjacent corners can contain this crosser type. There are only 9 tiles to create a full set of Exclusive Crosser tiles for two-corner-type areas. This is because in a tile such as ABBB, only the B part of the tile can contain 1 or 2 crossers. Likewise in the AAAB, only the A portion can contain 1 or 2 crossers. There are no instances of ABBA or BAAB tiles for this type, unless you make special diagonal crossers. This counting does not take into consideration the full AAAA or BBBB tiles. This small crosser is sufficient for making roads, non-cutting rivers which might include waterfalls, and ledges on mountain faces, and is commonly used for standard walls.


 


A common type of crosser we are all familiar with is the Smooth crosser. I categorize this as an Inclusive Crosser. You include only the areas of the tile where two different corner types meet. In the smooth crosser, you only smooth height changes. Other types of crosser which would use this method are stacked stone retaining walls, hill-cutting streams (without waterfalls), or elevated walls ringing a height elevation. This crosser requires 18 tiles to complete a full set mixing only two corner terrain types. In the case of streams, removing 4-edge combos will reduce your tile count by 1. Removing 3-edge combos will reduce your tile count by 2.


 


In all situations, to cross three or 4 types of terrain corners, the shared crosser will always require the full 15 tiles per combo, unless you skimp.


 


To cross 3 terrains with an exclusive crosser, only 6 tiles are required. You cannot use an exclusive crosser on 4 different corners of terrain.


 


To cross 3 terrains with an inclusive crosser, there are 27 tiles required to fill the set. Add 9 more if you make special accommodations for diagonal tiles like I do to account for their dual nature. To cross 4 terrain types, there are only 20 tiles, and no reason to worry about diagonal tiles, unless you want diagonal height ramps, in which case, add at least 9 more tiles, of which one joins 4 terrain types in a single jump.


 


I'm now teaching GMAX how to make this combination output in 3D, and then I'll share the files, probably as an exported simple tileset without the burden of texture. Should be pretty easy, I had already done this before years ago with my 4+ height change tileset.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #317 on: September 11, 2015, 08:32:49 pm »


               

Pausing for a while, possibly the weekend. So far 313 tiles and that covers this:


 


Grass


Mountain


Water


Pit


Grass + Raise


Grass + Mountain


Grass + Water


Grass + Pit


Grass + Raise + Soften


Grass + Raise + Mountain


Grass + Raise + Mountain + Soften


Grass + Raise + Pit


Grass + Raise + Pit + Soften


Grass + Water + Soften


Grass + Water + Raise


Grass + Water + Raise + Soften


Grass + Water + Mountain


Grass + Water + Mountain + Soften


Grass + Water + Pit


Grass + Water + Pit + Soften


Mountain + Water


Mountain + Pit


 


Still to do:


 


Grass + Raise + Mountain + Water


Grass + Raise + Mountain + Pit


Grass + Raise + Water + Pit (two tiles)


Grass + Mountain + Water + Pit (two tiles)


And soften versions for all those


 


Also simple stream crosser for those combinations, and a wall to boot


 


And then I think I will just put the all-white tileset out like that and make additions as requested.


 


I'm torn between doing and not doing a few rows for Mountain+, but I am thinking of leaving no Mountain+ at this time, so that there is no 3 level height change in this version. 3 Height changes will just make a lot more messy tiles to clone.


 


Because I have the ability to move 2 height changes in a single tile built into this, you will see in this release how the Neutral corner type works (or kinda requires work from you) to get that extra elevation change working. Any tile that contains adjacent mountain and raise will clone that tile in the tileset, replacing that corner with N as an option, so that when you use the Neutral corner type to seal the gap, this tile will be an option which fits your local tiles. Depending on the complexity of the gap, many tiles could associate with that corner, so you will have to pick through the tiles using "erase" in the toolset, to match the corner chunk you need.


 


All tiles will be fully walkmeshed to walkable, and will 100% match the height of the placeholder tile, but may be of medium complexity. This should not be to the point of slowing you down while you view the white world.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #318 on: September 12, 2015, 01:09:59 am »


               

I lied: had time to complete these


 


Grass + Raise + Mountain + Water


Grass + Raise + Mountain + Pit


Grass + Raise + Water + Pit (two tiles)


Grass + Mountain + Water + Pit (two tiles)


And soften versions for all those


 


And some interesting corner ramp variants of them, so we're up to 404 tiles so far



               
               

               
            

Legacy_s e n

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #319 on: September 12, 2015, 07:12:44 pm »


               

Man if you're up to multiple raise tiles and you're a lover of crossers why don't you give a look at my quadruple raise system matrix or to see something already implemented my terria wip tileset. the issue there is with multiple raise terrain edgetiles get confused so you can't have all the edgetile variations (only way to get the missing ones working is to create special edgetile crosser with 10x40 meters, 30 of which out of the map with opacity value specifically set to match the one the engine uses for default edge tiles) using one instead of five terrains saves a lot of troubles for the builder and a lot of headaches for the maker while dealing with the height values cycled with different terrain entries in the set file editor. Michael Darkangel did improve his set file editor to allow multiple height values for the same terrain and it works



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #320 on: September 12, 2015, 11:04:57 pm »


               

Set file editor yes, but not the neverwinter toolset. Is there a version of the toolset with the upgrade?


 


What version of the set editor is the one MDA fixed to allow for the multiple height change?


 


Also, if you want to fix the edge tile issue without using my surround terrain idea, try my neutral corner idea. It should clear up the edge tile issue because even with a neutral corner on tiles, you should only rarely come into contact with an edge corner which is neutral, and even if you do, it would only be one of two types. Of course if you neutral corner a 4 height system, you need at least 2 neutral types, neutral low and neutral high, or maybe three.


 


I discovered that while working on neutral corners for +1 height change on the base named tiles when used against +1 height change of other types of tiles. Like if I have mountain, which spans 2 at once, and I have height +1, then I can make up the difference in the adjacent tile with just one Neutral hop. But if I have mountain +1 be 3 height elevation changes from 0, and I have height +1 on an adjacent tile, I either double up the neutral variety, or I have a neutral high and a neutral low, one collecting all the Mountain+0 and the other collecting all the Mountain+1 tiles.


 


The last time I did this, I did it with GFF editor, and I had no need of cloned or neutral tiles. 4 height changes was easy, especially when you can script GFF changes for specific map coordinates and just raise them +1 or +5 at a time. Fun for making floating tiles over a cliff edge. It was easy for me because I had all these external programs to do my work for me. But I can't release it that way and expect people to enjoy it, or even understand it.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_s e n

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #321 on: September 13, 2015, 04:00:42 pm »


               

for edge tiles i remember I did try every existing (and not existing) combination in the 2da without effort: some of the multiple height edge tiles or did not show or they got their height gone wrong (if i remember correctly)


 


I'm not sure about why you're not able to get different height tiles of a single terrain work inside the toolset, never had that problem, just some rare toolset crash (very rare in fact). its just the old set editor doesnt allow for height values over 1, and if you edit a set file that already has multiple height values, the famous editor almost everyone uses (can't remember the name atm) fu#@s the values.


so its good to just use last set editor version MDA did release, I am sure that works.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #322 on: September 13, 2015, 04:25:43 pm »


               

I've never been able to get the multiple height changes in a single set to work with the raise/lower tool in the toolset. Maybe I will examine your set and see what you did differently. I can only get +1 height values, and beyond that I just get red box errors showing me which tile I am missing, even though I have that tile set up. So I assumed it wasn't working in the toolset and could not work (for 7 years now).


 


Edit:


 


I have came, I have saw, and it has kicked my ass. Thanks for pointing me toward that. I can now finish mine in peace.


 


I like the GrassTextureName entry in the SET file and I also like the fact that you pulled it off showing I don't need to make any primary or secondary rules at all. This open up two more tileset types for me that I wanted to do.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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« Reply #323 on: September 13, 2015, 05:52:47 pm »


               

Now I have been counting up the tiles to the following:


 


G0 G1 G2 G3 G4 Water Pit and Smooth crosser and I get a staggering quantity of tile requirements.


 


I then set it lower trying G0 G1 G2 G3 Water Pit Smooth, and I get a lot less requirements.


 


But then if I do G0 G1 G2 G3 Water Smooth, and treat the pit as a -3 hole from a G3 position, then I get a reasonable quantity of tiles required.


 


This assumes I can only smooth with one height change, which includes G0 and W, G0 and G1, G1 and G2, G2 and G3.


 


In addition to the tiles I already made yesterday, which I think was 25 subsets ...


 


For the first idea, I stopped after a page of requirements and I had already gotten to 26 additional subsets to complete the full set. 26 lines of 9 to 27 tiles is too much.


 


The second idea gave 36 additional subsets. Still over where I stopped before.


 


The third idea allows for 20 additional subsets to complete the set, and is still a bit large, but still something I can do easily with automation.


 


In the current set of all white tiles, the height change is 3 meters, and my pit object is -12m, with water being -3m. But in the third option, if I leave the height change as 3m, the pit will seem a bit more shallow.


 


So that's a total of 45 or 46 subsets, not including rivers and walls. I'm already at 403-404 tiles at 25-26 subsets, and I think a basic set with 3 height changes would be in the 1k range of tiles, as it was before when I did a sloppy 4 height changes.


 


But this thing that Sen showed me which works perfectly will make it possible, somewhat simple, and without the need for a neutral corner mess.


This will not be the quality I was showing with the mountain being 9m and accepting a +1 setting it to only 10.5, and having only 1.5m rises. Instead you will have only 9m rises as a maximum, and height changes are twice as steep as my last picture of the Scottish looking hills.


 


We'll see what it looks like in white first, and then I can shape the Granitelands around the height changes in the white set if I want to go that far.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_s e n

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #324 on: September 13, 2015, 05:55:11 pm »


               

it opens new horizons '<img'>


I remember I got an excel list of all variations needed for 2, 3 and 4 raise system that included height values but I can't find it on my archive and I dont remember if I did post along with the raise system example mod and hak in the old vault and or Rolo did move that to the new vault,



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #325 on: September 13, 2015, 06:13:39 pm »


               

I figured them all out on my own, and wasn't too happy with the list '<img'>


 


Last time I did this I had the program calculate them for me in GMAX, and then I put the coordinate details in an exportable property on the model, like comments. Then I read the comment out of the MDL file and had the external script pack them all into the SET file, and calculate the required pathing type and direction from that data. I remember it took me like 2 months to get right back then. Now it isn't too hard. Especially on coffee.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_s e n

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #326 on: September 13, 2015, 06:29:24 pm »


               

http://neverwinterva...le-raise-system


 


anyway if you need it, I found it, its there inside the 7z archive. it tells also why you did not get it work in toolset, basically that's needed a -1 or less base value and the other values scaled by consequence when a multiple raise is in place lol thats tricky, also you need to adjust the model height for certain tiles. by the way a quadruple raise system is just 95 tile variations



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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« Reply #327 on: September 13, 2015, 06:38:32 pm »


               

It is 95 tile variations if you only do the basics. I'm counting crossers too and even with two height changes and max 3 variants per tile (pre crossers) and then water and pit, and I'm already at 404.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_s e n

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Merricksdad's Black Hills Tileset (First Look)
« Reply #328 on: September 13, 2015, 06:45:03 pm »


               

lol yes but with "just" 95 you can taste the strenght, and get drive boost to move on expanding it with other stuff '<img'>


 


A suggestion I feel to make you is to consider use a slightly high height value (such 4, 5 or 6) , with say 5 a quadruple raise allows to move 20 meters height in the space of 1 tile, thats a lot (I think BM rocky mountains have 24 max and LR rocky mountains something like 18) and use a grass smooth terrain to create gentle hills for the 01 raise basic variations. thats a nice compromise to get both gentle hills and steep mountains in place with just a few tile variations needed



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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« Reply #329 on: September 13, 2015, 06:48:00 pm »


               

I see your spreadsheet shows why it works without rules. That is some fancy trickery.