Fomenting Mutiny

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               

FunkySwerve wrote...

I call horsedroppings. I was in one of the initial meetings where Q was discussed. I also brought in acaos, in order to discuss the possibility of an full-on community patch, rather than just a hak. The amount of  pure vitriol and contempt directed at CEP was what cause me to bail on further discussions.

I can't comment on what LR may have said about CEP to other people and in discussions I was not privy to. I also won't deny he had considerable contempt for CEP, but MY understanding has always been that Project Q wasn't created because of CEP. It was more an alternative response to the apparent lack of artistic direction and cohesiveness in CEP.

I do agree that its kind of a moot point and really off-topic. Best to keep the discussion to CEP and its future incarnation...

The most blatant problem I see at the moment is one of scope. You guys seem to be heading in so many different directions at once that it's hard to keep track - CEP2 reincarnation, CEP3, utilities to merge content, compatibility packs...

My 2-cents - stick to one thing, be it CEP2 update or a new CEP3. Forget maintaining compatibility with other projects such as Q. Let individual builders worry about what they plan to do if they want to use CEP with Q or CEP with CTP and so on. When the initial work is done, go back and revisit the side roads.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Pstemarie, 15 janvier 2014 - 01:55 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Tiberius_Morguhn]

               I'll venture to throw my hat in the ring to help with placeables and what-not.  I stopped upgrading at CEP 2.1 for my own projects.  I know that the CEP has several of my older works and I can assist with updating those, as well as updating/fixing other placeables and adding content.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Michael DarkAngel]

               

Pstemarie wrote...

The most blatant problem I see at the moment is one of scope. You guys seem to be heading in so many different directions at once that it's hard to keep track - CEP2 reincarnation, CEP3, utilities to merge content, compatibility packs...

I believe this is the round-table discussion point of the process, and the community at large is voicing its opinions on what needs/should be done.

That shouldn't be silenced. It needs to be written down, organized, distributed to the available volunteers and tracked accordingly.

It's true, not everything voiced is needed right away...  Not everything voiced will get done...

But the opening discussions should not be limited to any one area at the onset.


 MDA
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bluebomber4evr]

               

Killmonger wrote...

There is a fourth component fundamental (ok, "a tetrad of joy") that also deserves attention:

Scripted Assets

We all will need to consider the great importance of NWscripts
ShadowW's tireless work (and the 1.7patch team) needs to be acclaimed.
The original programming had many loose ends which needed to be rationalized

I am not (yet) a good scripter, but the systems that are now available are tremendous strides from the original Nwn. The CEP systems are somewhat of a mystery and need to be made more accessible and mainstreamed into legacy use (Traps for an example).
I am not the person to lead a unified scripting initiative but the CEP contains many useful scripts  which have been updated and surpassed by other individual authors in the last two years+.

We must not overlook "the magic" that ties all this wonderful other content together.
There are just too many systems which are disparate and need to be aligned (?,  mapped per se)for ease of use for newbies, even just some realistic documentation and/or description of the Cep's scripts would be useful. Going forward, some framework for the future expansion of the "basic scripts" needs to be exposited.

I think it is best to leave scripted assets in some sort of optional hak, or better, an erf download, if scripts are included at all. The CEP's scripts have not always been that consistently great for performance, and a bunch of unused scripts will just take up space on a large PW server. (Note this is not a slam to the stuff you listed above, just talking about the scripts included in past incarnations of the CEP).

Over at PotM, we tossed all of the CEP's scripts in favor of our own stuff, but I can see the appeal of an optional script download for things like the old placeable traps from the CEP 1 or the C.R.A.P. stuff.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Bluebomber4evr, 15 janvier 2014 - 02:27 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Wall3T]

               

Proleric1 wrote...

I tend to agree that CEP, Q and CCC serve different purposes, so maybe better to focus on CEP in this discussion

i mightve had something to do with that :innocent:,but it presents a point i wanted to do. everyone is starting to get worked up and defending these projects. which is always a logical emotion, but Is it a good idea to update or make a new cep? i made my stand to say i will, but are we ready for it? what happens when/ if the cep team were to re emerge and stake legal claims?

maybe we could come up with a list of things to prepare ourselves for such an event, and maybe HELP THE AMYTHEST DRAGON get this going! instead of fighting over whos better than who or "clearing up misconceptions". lets do that on another topic please
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               

Pstemarie wrote...

The most blatant problem I see at the moment is one of scope. You guys seem to be heading in so many different directions at once that it's hard to keep track - CEP2 reincarnation, CEP3, utilities to merge content, compatibility packs...

My 2-cents - stick to one thing, be it CEP2 update or a new CEP3. Forget maintaining compatibility with other projects such as Q. Let individual builders worry about what they plan to do if they want to use CEP with Q or CEP with CTP and so on. When the initial work is done, go back and revisit the side roads.

Agreed.

My preference would be to just start updating CEP.  Call it version 2.6 (Barry_1066 supposedly had a version 2.5 in the works) or something instead of 3.0, whatever.  Getting too ambitious and completely reworking the CEP will just leave many builders in the dust.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               

Michael DarkAngel wrote...

Pstemarie wrote...

The most blatant problem I see at the moment is one of scope. You guys seem to be heading in so many different directions at once that it's hard to keep track - CEP2 reincarnation, CEP3, utilities to merge content, compatibility packs...

I believe this is the round-table discussion point of the process, and the community at large is voicing its opinions on what needs/should be done.

That shouldn't be silenced. It needs to be written down, organized, distributed to the available volunteers and tracked accordingly.

It's true, not everything voiced is needed right away...  Not everything voiced will get done...

But the opening discussions should not be limited to any one area at the onset.


 MDA

Well said and true. 

Sometimes I forget I'm not dealing with the bureaucracy at my workplace. At my work, when someone makes a proposal, the administration appoints a committee to analyze it to death. Then, by the time the committee is done with its analysis no one remembers what the original proposal was. So what do they do next? Appoint a second committe to analyze why the first failed. Yes, I work for a government agency - the Dept. of Education to be exact.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Pstemarie, 15 janvier 2014 - 02:50 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

Pstemarie wrote...

The most blatant problem I see at the moment is one of scope. You guys seem to be heading in so many different directions at once that it's hard to keep track - CEP2 reincarnation, CEP3, utilities to merge content, compatibility packs...

My 2-cents - stick to one thing, be it CEP2 update or a new CEP3. Forget maintaining compatibility with other projects such as Q. Let individual builders worry about what they plan to do if they want to use CEP with Q or CEP with CTP and so on. When the initial work is done, go back and revisit the side roads.

Agreed.

My preference would be to just start updating CEP.  Call it version 2.6 (Barry_1066 supposedly had a version 2.5 in the works) or something instead of 3.0, whatever.  Getting too ambitious and completely reworking the CEP will just leave many builders in the dust.

Seems like you have a solid direction in mind, my friend. I say roll-on! 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

My preference would be to just start updating CEP.  Call it version 2.6 (Barry_1066 supposedly had a version 2.5 in the works) or something instead of 3.0, whatever.

I think thats a great idea, TAD, and why I suggested it here and on the WIKI. CEP 3.0 needs to be discussed quite a bit before that work begins.

I created a page on the wiki called CEP 2 fixes in the hopes that people would start looking at what needs to be done to "complete" CEP 2.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               

henesua wrote...

I created a page on the wiki called CEP 2 fixes in the hopes that people would start looking at what needs to be done to "complete" CEP 2.

Look at that...already starting progress. '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               And since we are talking about things that we can take action on, I would like to make some general proposals:

• Restart  CEP as an inclusive, community-wide initiative using for the time being the WIKI recently set up for documentation, and the BSN boards as our point of communication, and neverwintervault.org as our file host. (neverwintervault.org may naturally evolve as the primary place to do all of this since it seems to have all the functionality we need and will be the place where we host the files and I think that is fine.)
• CEP changes its focus from a single project (the latest CEP set of HAKs) to a mission, that being to organize and make accessible NWN custom content for the wider community of players and builders. Perhaps the language or the precise mission can be stated better or changed from what I have written, but please consider the idea that CEP has a mission rather than a single product.
• Allow all members of the community to participate in the intiative as they please rather than controlling membership. If you participate in the initiative, you are welcome to take part. Its that simple.
• The broad initiative contains and supports many projects and purposes to meet its mission: documenting CEP1 and CEP2 projects, curating the files for them, and so on. Curating all of the CEP1 and CEP2 project on neverwintervault.org for example would be a good task to take on, as would encouraging documentation of CEP on the WIKI.
• Specific project teams within CEP however have the right to manage membership of their specific team however they wish. Project teams would be groups of people that work together to produce CEP product. So a team for improving CEP 2 for example seems to already be forming with The Amethyst Dragon as the leader, adn that group will naturally operate as it needs to to get its project done. When the project is done members of the CEP initiative will help support the project, by curating the files, writing installation guides for NEWBs on the wiki and so on.

So thats my rough, general proposal for the time being. Make of it what you will. Its all entirely negotiable, but the core of the thing that I think would work well is that CEP becomes a broad initiative working to organize and make available NWN custom content. And by custom content I mean art assets etc... Not things like scripts, or prefabs or modules or any of that. But instead things like HAKs, overrides, portraits, music or any of these other "art" assets.

Should such an idea be ammenable to enough of the community to get it rolling, and should we have the blessing of Amethyst Dragon I'd like to start talking about projects that happen within this initiative.

• Obviously the first project is to improve CEP 2.  lot to say here, but TAD has it covered. Talk to him about it.
• A minor project would be to provide minimal support for CEP 1. - Create a project page for CEP 1 on neverwintervault.org. Upload all of the CEP 1 content. Advertise this as the official location so that everyone can find it. Migrate existing documentaion of CEP 1 to our WIKI (or whereever we decide is the best long term location for CEP documentation). And other related tasks so that people can find CEP 1, understand how to use it, and perhaps even have a list of prominent modules and related legacy projects that make use of or work with it, or any other similar task in support of CEP 1 so that it doesn't feel like some lost useless thing.
• A project I would liek to see and work on: the CEP Facelift Project - (unless a better name is found). One goal of the project would be to compile a Patch HAK of facelifts of default content. Another goal would be to advocate for a separation of custom content into optional and required content when playing a module, and to try to get projects like CEP 2 to work with us on this, and cull overriding from their HAKs so as to lean them up and enable players to decide what overrides they use. Again all of this is negotiable, but my goal is to provide support for non-technical players that want a facelift package for the game wihtout having to compile one for themself. And considering that tastes are different I could see this project producing themed facelifts. The goal of the project however would be to organize this content and package it, rather than create stuff specifically for it.
  
  

Anyhow that is a lot to digest, and I do have a PW to build. So its time I stop talking about things, and get to doing them. All the above are things that I would like to see happen and to participate in. I anyone is interested in this as well, and the broader community agrees that its a good idea, I'd like to get to work on it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mecheon]

               

meaglyn wrote...

Tarot Redhand wrote...
CEP 3 - A New Hope

Eveyone knows it's "CEP 4 - A New Hope"  '>

I think you mean

CEP 4 - The One with the Whales

(I can't resist that joke. Ever)

I am liking the look of Hen's ideas there, and give me a bell when some of the revamping comes along. I've been eying that Vorlon for a while and wondering the best way to get into something nicer looking...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Mecheon, 15 janvier 2014 - 12:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               AD does this mean that you'll be moving on from being in charge of the ccc? (No I do not want the job thank you very much). It's the 15th and last month's hasn't been released to the screaming hoards yet.

TR 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               I didn't plan on abandoning the CCC. '>

I could have sworn one more thing was coming in for Dark Sun.  I'll check the list today.  If there's actually nothing missing, then I'll upload the stuff tomorrow.

I'll be mostly offline all day today...I need to finish converting NPC stats for the Temple of Elemental Evil to 3rd edition for an evening D&D session with my older kids.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_leo_x]

               

MerricksDad wrote...

This is of course all hypothetical since I have not yet finished the GFF/TLK/2DA overlord, and I don't see one currently available, especially one that would take external to-do lists.

But imagine the power...

There are at least a handful of open source libraries that can modify all these formats already: Elven's nwn-lib (Ruby), Skywings NWN2 data library (C++), kivinen's tools (Perl), Neveredit (Python, but needs some updating), PyNWN (originally my port of nwn-lib to Python2.7, without the DSLs and with GFFs abstracted away, docs), and probably in Dragonsong's stuff (Delphi).  There is also a NWN2 dll that exposes all these file formats (not sure it can be redistributed).

Sorry if it's off topic at this point but it's sad to see a lot of work (potentially) falling by the wayside.