Fomenting Mutiny

[Legacy_Zarathustra217]

               I certainly agree that you need to know what you are doing when using CM3. I'm inclined to say you need to be able to read the model format itself so you can keep check of exactly what it does. For a lot of issues, I find it more useful for giving indications of issues rather than fixing them.

As I've also said though, there are a lot of actual errors in the current CEP - first and foremost in terms improper lighting settings, but I've found a good deal of other stuff so far, like duplicate nodes, improper node naming, etc.

It might be getting a bit far into the specifics, but since using CM3 has become so hotly debated here, I'll allow myself to elaborate a bit by giving an example I'm looking at right now.

If you look in the model file of plc_mf100.mdl in the cep_crp hak, you'll notice that in the trimesh node Object1369 has the following vertexes:

    verts 4
     -1.000000 1.000000
     -1.000000 -1.000000
     1.000000 1.000000
     1.000000 -1.000000

For those familiar with the ascii model format, they'll quickly notice that the vertices are lacking a Z coordinate. The consequence is that while it will actually show in game (the build-in compiler seems more flexible), it'll not compile with the external compiler.

How did I discover this issue? CM3, simply because it's log reported that the model failed to load. And in fact, it's present in all the plc_mf* models (about 80 in total), so it'll be easy to fix them all at once.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Zarathustra217, 01 février 2014 - 06:03 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_OldTimeRadio]

               I can only stress the difference between a significant or glaring error and an "technical error", which in this case I use to describe any deviation from standard, whatsoever. 

The Aurora Engine, especially by 1.69 is very forgiving of most kinds of technical errors.  CleanModels is not.

But all that aside, the bottom line, in my mind, is what is the actual burden/impedance/discomfort/non-functionality that players (or whomever) suffer because of a given error?

That's a rhetorical question I'm not specifically asking of you but one which should be considered.  Issues which are associated with a clearly negative burden on CEP consumers are more compelling.

Let me take the example you've provided, plc_mf100.mdl.

May I ask...what 2DA file is that model referenced in?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par OldTimeRadio, 01 février 2014 - 07:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zarathustra217]

               Placeables.2da I assume, judging from the prefix?

The error I gave as example above is indeed very diminutive, but it's just a small, fairly random example (it was what I was looking at at the time). The main issue bothering me is mainly improper lighting, but I assume all the other minor inconsistencies also have a performance impact - in some cases, it could even cause instability because while the built-in compiler accepts it, it is likely it could cause unpredictable behaviour.

What I'm doing right is basically just similar to what Pstmarie mentioned Acaos did earlier. I imagine many of the issues I'm discovering might be content from later than when Acaos last reworked it.

All in all though, it might not be what you consider the most important - but why are you sceptical that others do it? (provided they know what they do).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Zarathustra217, 01 février 2014 - 07:16 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_OldTimeRadio]

               

Zarathustra217 wrote...
Placeables.2da I assume, judging from the prefix?

The question I'm asking you is, is that model actually used by CEP at all?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zarathustra217]

               

OldTimeRadio wrote...

Zarathustra217 wrote...
Placeables.2da I assume, judging from the prefix?

The question I'm asking you is, is that model actually used by CEP at all?

Apparently, it actually isn't referenced in any 2da, so it's not presently in use - perhaps due to these errors?

It's great that you noticed this, because that's certainly an error we should fix. But what's actually your point? If you want to look at placeables currently referenced that do have issues, just check all the NWN2 imports. Or the broken barrel placeables. Or the duplicate nodes in the slug creature models. Or the... well, I'll provide you a list if you want.

... but what's really the point?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_OldTimeRadio]

               

Zarathustra217 wrote...
Apparently, it actually isn't referenced in any 2da, so it's not presently in use - perhaps due to these errors?

That's right.  It's apparently not used by CEP at all.  There appear to be 63 super-tiny models just like it in that range which also aren't used, either.

It's great that you noticed this, because that's certainly an error we should fix.

There were no errors, we decompiled some models and ran them through CM3 and now there are errors we should fix?  In models that aren't even used by CEP?  No, just no.

But what's actually your point?

My point is, this is almost the textbook example of why I'm saying people shouldn't be spelunking around CEP with CleanModels.  Because situations like this happen.  Then Amethyst Dragon gets 64 models in his inbox, numbered plc_mf100-plc_mf163 with the note, as I wrote in another message, "Here.  I fixed these 64 models for CEP!" and stick him with the task of figuring what kind of signifgance and benefit those changed models contain. 

For the Nth time, in regards to cracking open existing CEP content and mucking with it:
Develop specific plans of limited scope to fix signifigant or glaring errors which actually already impact CEP users.

This is not some edict.  I'm not even a member of CEP.  This is simply a good idea and should stand on its own merits.

If you want to look at placeables currently referenced that do have issues, just check all the NWN2 imports. Or the broken barrel placeables. Or the duplicate nodes in the slug creature models. Or the... well, I'll provide you a list if you want.... but what's really the point?

The point is people want to help CEP and that's great.  If one is unreasonably compelled to modify existing CEP content instead of making new content, have a real good reason for doing it.  Something which has an actual impact on CEP and whose fix improves CEP perceptably if not obviously.

Because it would be easy to probably fill a hak with 100 megs of recompiled reworked models from CEP whose changes were barely perceptable to people who actually use it.

The broken barrel placeables?  Duplicate nodes in the slugs, etc.?  Are those actually used?  Do players suffer because of (whatever) error?  If that's the case, those sound like great fixes, potentially.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par OldTimeRadio, 01 février 2014 - 08:57 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zarathustra217]

               That's not a textbook example of anything but the lack of overview of what's actually in the CEP. That's the terms of the project being abandoned by those working on it priorly. But in this process we actually managed to reveal some hidden content that would otherwise be unnoticed.

And sure, we could limit ourselves to those things we've directly noticed - but it would take a long time before people went through the tens of thousand models the CEP contains. And some things might not even be directly perceptible to the end user - such as duplicate models, improper node naming, etc.

People even mentioned that Acaos systematically went through all the CEP content earlier - was that a mistake too?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Zarathustra217, 01 février 2014 - 09:31 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Well, anyway I just wanted to say AD that I like the direction you are going. While its still CEP2 which is imo solution that will soon reach its limits (and reached many limits already), the fixes and changes you are planning with an ongoing support of a new content might actually convince me to use it as a whole with just my own top hak. I think you are on a good path, hopefully you will finish it.

I didnt read last pages, so link me to the old post if this has been answered, but do you plan to do something with the copied baseitems with different ac type (I guess not since it would break compatibility), and nonfunctional weapon visual effects that are there?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

...do you plan to do something with the copied baseitems with different ac type (I guess not since it would break compatibility), and nonfunctional weapon visual effects that are there?

I do not plan on doing anything with the copied baseitems with the different AC types.

I think that the non-functional weapon visual effects can be removed.  There's no way to make them function just with haks, and they have  confused some people over the years since those were added. NWNCX allows additional weapon visual effects to work in-game, but I don't think we should add something to the CEP that relies on an external program modification to work.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zarathustra217]

               

TheOneBlackRider wrote...

I'm not sure, if this makes much sense, but I'd like to offer my help.
Point is, that I do have (too ?) manny kettles boiling - besides RL the PW(s) I'm involved in.
I have converted NWN2 placeable models but not with a complete retexture.
Anyways, if there are small (simple, cause I'm still no wiz like any of you out there) jobs, please contact me. I'd see, what I could get done.

That sounds great! For now, I'd really just encourage you to go to nwncep.wikia.com and get an idea of what's going on there.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

ShaDoOoW wrote...

...do you plan to do something with the copied baseitems with different ac type (I guess not since it would break compatibility), and nonfunctional weapon visual effects that are there?

I do not plan on doing anything with the copied baseitems with the different AC types.

Well its not something I would not use CEP2 for, I can ignore those baseitems, even when I dont like it caused huge mess in the baseitems list when creating new item in game. But Im curious, do peoples really use this frequently? I mean, its not a bad idea but to me it seems to be quite redundant and rather a choice for those who dont know how to change a AC type on a baseitem.

The reason I dont like them is that they are broken in general.

Extra Cloaks - shows only single basic cloak model which is colorless (gray) and cannot be colored with dyes (I havent actually really tried every possibilities of coloring, so if its possible with some modification let me know), they are also using a legacy icons, which is however not bad idea, only if a new cloak could be assigned to the old icon which doesnt seems to be...

Extra shields - chapter itself, they cannot be equipped with medium character and larger at all, only a halfling/gnome (and they can equip tower shield 2 which they shouldnt be), in toolset they are completely broken (hugge ammount of the part based combinations shows nothing or a bag), they doesnt grant their usual AC bonus when equipped and mainly, they doesnt fit the character. When compared with the standard version, character wears these shields way too low and off the body, it looks horribly. I really wonder if the CEP2 original team actually tried this ingame before they pushed it into final release.

Extra helmets - doesnt work, why its there? Its completely broken see meaglyn's baseitem thread.

I think that the non-functional weapon visual effects can be removed.  There's no way to make them function just with haks, and they have  confused some people over the years since those were added. NWNCX allows additional weapon visual effects to work in-game, but I don't think we should add something to the CEP that relies on an external program modification to work.

Great because I think its therefore not compatible with these new VFXes that actually works, you as the author of that package I have in mind surely know what I mean. Now, if they actually worked at least with NWNCX I wouldnt be against, but unfortunately NWNCX is still not a standard and its still developed in a, for a client, quite bad way causing several experienced programmers to each have their own NWNCX and plugins instead of one standardized nwnx that would replaced the nwmain.exe, well thats offtopic anyway.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I personally would love to see more Monsters, skyboxes, placeables, and tilesets added specifically.

Yes, but are there specific ones from the new or old Vault you would like to suggest?

So that when the time comes, we can ask the creators for permission to include their work.  Got to get suggestions and direct links to the entries for those suggestions, since I don't have time to sift through the last 3 or so years worth of content that's been released since the last CEP 2.4 update.

I will have to do some digging, but unfortunately my time is very limited currently. Off the top of my head a few things come to mind:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Tileset
Specifically the CPT, but there are others listed there as well.
http://nwn.wikia.com...Tileset_Project
http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=6992

A lot of the other ones look quite good too.

Is there a forum for discussing this project, and for people to post thoughts/ideas/suggestions ect...? Or just this thread?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               

Lazarus Magni wrote...

I will have to do some digging, but unfortunately my time is very limited currently. Off the top of my head a few things come to mind:
http://nwn.wikia.com/wiki/Tileset
Specifically the CPT, but there are others listed there as well.
http://nwn.wikia.com...Tileset_Project
http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=6992

A lot of the other ones look quite good too.

Is there a forum for discussing this project, and for people to post thoughts/ideas/suggestions ect...? Or just this thread?

CEP Forum is a good place for posting thoughts/ideas/suggestions.

RE: CTP: From the Vault link you posted, it shows that much of the CTP content has been released for anyone to use for any purpose.  It's a hundred mb addition to the download (and CEP is already 750-800 mb with 7z), so it's something that would really have to be discussed amongst the community.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               TAD, I am all for this and you have my support.

You could call it CEP revisited.

I personally would like to see Chung's idea brought to fruition, from way back when : an automatic tlk/2da organizer that can put things together automatically (Dragon's Age has such a thing, btw the CharGen).

If one was to create that as well, then a merge of other Community Resources (like Q, PRc, etc) would not really be an issue IMHO.

Although combining Q and CEP would really be a "Holy Grail" for NWN IMHO.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Proleric]

               

WebShaman wrote...

...I personally would like to see Chung's idea brought to fruition, from way back when : an automatic tlk/2da organizer that can put things together automatically (Dragon's Age has such a thing...

+1 for that!

This worked well on Dragon Age, because we had a public wiki where anyone could reserve 2DA lines to avoid conflicts when the files merged.

For NWN, the biggest obstacle is the limited 0-255 range for body parts. I guess the 2DA merge tool would have to respect priorities, on the same principal as a top hak.