Author Topic: Fomenting Mutiny  (Read 6814 times)

Legacy_Zarathustra217

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« Reply #195 on: January 25, 2014, 07:50:39 am »


               

Pstemarie wrote...

Zarathustra217 wrote...

One thing that for certain won't get more people involved is already priorly making up your mind that they won't.

It's not impossible. NWNx has some central people working on the core, but quite many people have done minor contributions to it.

On the other hand, why the scepticism at all? What's the loss?


The quote from my wife wasn't put in there to show skepticism. I included it to point out the simple fact that I - like her - have little doubt that TAD has already begun to work on a CEP update. I'm also certain that other people have already started working on the bits and pieces to which they can contribute. I viewed her words as somewhat humerous - because they're probably true - and thought this thread could use a little brevity at the time. My mistake and it certainly won't happen again.


I wasn't commenting specifically on the quote from your wife - the scepticism is apparent enough in your prior post. No matter what, there's no reason acting hurt - my point was not to simply reprove, but guinely to encourage some optimism.

Anyway, speaking of tools, wouldn't an obvious choice be to run stuff through OldManBeard's CleanModels3 for a quick way to solve a lot of issues? Anyone have experiences running mass-operations with that?
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Zarathustra217, 25 janvier 2014 - 07:55 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Estelindis

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« Reply #196 on: January 25, 2014, 01:32:35 pm »


               Myself and other CTP members have plenty of experience doing that, but in the context of individual projects (i.e. all tiles in a specific set) that we knew quite well.  You've got to be careful to use the right settings with CM3.  It is a wonderful and powerful tool that shouldn't be thrown at things willy-nilly.  One should break down CEP models into groups based on the different settings that would work well for them.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Estelindis, 25 janvier 2014 - 01:38 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Tarot Redhand

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« Reply #197 on: January 25, 2014, 02:10:56 pm »


               @Zarathustra217 It is my understanding that cm3 is designed to find and correct errors to be found within a model. As such it will not address the things (such as extraneous textures for example) that the tools that I propose will.

TR
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Pstemarie

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« Reply #198 on: January 25, 2014, 03:35:37 pm »


               I'm bowing out of this conversation. I'm tired of having things read into my posts that just aren't there and I'm far too busy with stuff that matters to ME to worry about something I don't (and will never) use. Good luck TAD.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_KlatchainCoffee

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« Reply #199 on: January 25, 2014, 04:17:07 pm »


               

Pstemarie wrote...

I'm bowing out of this conversation. I'm tired of having things read into my posts that just aren't there and I'm far too busy with stuff that matters to ME to worry about something I don't (and will never) use. Good luck TAD.


But a lot of other people will, so any useful feedback and ideas are a good thing to have. And yes, miscommunication is frustrating, easily happens using this meduim and is probably the cause of half the problems experienced by internet communities in general.


Despite its many problems, past and present, CEP has a big part to play in how NWN is and will be used by existing and potentially new builders and world creators (at least until something substantially better than Aurora toolset comes along). I would have liked to see it properly re-organised -and- backwards compatible, but any improvement and development should be seen as positive. So - THANK YOU to anyone who had shared useful thoughts and attempted to help so far.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par KlatchainCoffee, 25 janvier 2014 - 04:20 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_OldTimeRadio

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« Reply #200 on: January 25, 2014, 06:24:10 pm »


               I'm not certain how all this will resolve itself but I suspect it's likely to be something where The Amethyst Dragon makes a hak or haks which sit on top of an existing CEP 2.4a installation.  If this is the case, it may not go far enough for some people who believe that CEP needs to be reforged or altered in some, more considerable, way.

This message is for those people and, hopefully, will allay some of the concerns they might have and also explain why I think a less-elaborate approach is probably going to be the easiest, most beneficial and have the highest chance of actually getting done.

While he didn't have much of a forum presence and kept a relatively low profile, Acaos of Higher Ground joined CEP team sometime between 2.0 and 2.1.  He set himself to the task of making CEP run as smoothy as possible and that involved almost single handedly going over the entirety of CEP 2.0 content and searching for errors, primarily model compilation errors, and fixing them.  This also extended to many other areas, like fixing PWKs/WOKs and a whole host of other things.  Sometimes writing custom made programs or using existing programs, like OldMansBeard's CleanModels, to assist him in this process.

He was an exceptionally talented person, maybe the perfect person, for such a task.  Anyone who's seen his work on HG, used NWN Explorer Reborn, used the model compiler/decompiler in it, Erf Tool Reborn (used for the CEP updater) or used any of his NWNX plugins would probably agree.  The guy had mad skills and the drive to carry tasks through to completion.

Now, people who interacted with a certain member or members of CEP might have come away with a rather dim view of them and made inferrences about the quality of of CEP based on those poor interactions.  These inferences, while natural, could be very misleading.

But behind the scenes, from CEP 2.1 to 2.3 (and a little beyond, IIRC), the actual CEP content was being expertly maintained, for the most part.  While CEP 2.4/2.4a were released (to my knowledge) without Acaos's assitance, I have every indication that his prior work was not altered or reverted, but added to.

I was lucky enough to speak with Acaos about this on occasion and even inspect his build setup myself (he built new versions of CEP, from scratch, on demand, using a mostly-automated process), which was more complex than any suggested in this thread so far, and involved SVN.  By the time CEP 2.3 rolled out the doors, was it perfect?  No.  But, overall, it was in far better shape than most people would guess and pretty damned tight.

On a related note, sometimes why something is in CEP (like the duplicate textures Tiberius_Morguhn mentioned) can be a bit puzzling.  I brought up almost that exact issue to Acaos and he explained that the reason they were not removed was because CEP did not want to inadvertently break content which might rely on those textures.

Anyway. I tend to agree with Pstemarie's comments about the likelihood that The Amethyst Dragon will wind up doing much of this himself.  I think SVN was the right tool for Acaos based on his task (and the mammoth amount of content added from CEP 2.1->2.3) but I do not think it's necessary for the project at this stage in CEP's life. 

If anything, I think it will get in the way of a workflow which Amethyst Dragon already has down quite well, which he uses to compile the monthly CCC.

It is possible for a thing to be overarchitcted to the point of failure.  That should be avoided.  CEP is a combination of a Swiss Army knife and the Winchester House.  Reverse-rearchitecting such a thing at this point is not the recipe for a good time, IMO.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_omen_shepperd

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« Reply #201 on: January 25, 2014, 06:59:17 pm »


               I have been wondering what was ever going to become of the CEP. AD I for one applaud you on your willingness to further our community more so than you already have. While I don’t have the skills to be able to add to your team or to even assist in getting the project done faster. I support your efforts and will mention this on the facebook community page.

I have seen many of the enhancements you have given to the community, and I am anxious to see what you are able to do with the CEP.

Thank you Amethyst Dragon for all your devotion to the community.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_QlippothVI

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« Reply #202 on: January 25, 2014, 07:24:15 pm »


               Firstly, yes, thank you, TAD for all your work in the community. They are greatly enjoyed (even if you are not always appreciated) by all.

I'm only going to throw out one more thing (no one want to use my bugbase?), and that is:

Can we fix the gates and doors that don't have proper close animations? Or is this the wrong place to ask for such a fix? Maybe that should be an override or patch or something. Some of the Dwarves have strangely sized thighs, as well (which has been bugging me since before we released the gold master for the game).

ANYway, I was trying to create a module where gates can be destroyed (not really, just using the animations for their destruction) and repaired (by using the close animation). So the gate can be "destroyed", then "replaced" or repaired, as it were.
The issue is not all of the gates have proper close animations. If the player is far enough away where the gate is not drawn, then the player gets close enough to the gate for it to be rendered again it will show properly. So if you repair a gate, but are close enough that this bug occurs:
  • You will not be able to pass the gate (invisible, but closed).
  • The area on which a player can click is miniscule and nearly imposible to operate.
  • Workaround: Run far enough away the gate will no longer be rendered, then return and the gate is fine again (for that player).
I was using "Sir Elric's Respawning Doors v1.1": http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=3020

Proleric a long while back said, "Apparently many of the larger gates do not have the animation needed to replace the gate graphic while the player is watching. This needs to be fixed in the model."

I used about every gate in the Castle Exterior there is. All of the normal doors are fine, I suspect that any gate that has no "DoorCloseAnim" might have this issue. The bridge door is good also. I have not tested this for a few years, so do not know if this issue is apparent in other tilesets (or is a door independant of the tileset used?).

- Qlippoth ':wizard:'
               
               

               


                     Modifié par QlippothVI, 25 janvier 2014 - 07:38 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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« Reply #203 on: January 25, 2014, 09:23:56 pm »


               I should probably leave this thread, because it is not like I have a moment of time to spend on actually doing anything for CEP, except on accident....but...

Instead of a CEP, what we really need is a system by which builders apply for a range of TLK and/or shared 2DA lines for their project, thereby allowing every package to fit within the CEP realm without stepping on feet. I know that comes across sounding simple, but it really is that simple. The hard part is actually maintaining a group that manages such a list.

Here's what you'd do:
1) grant a range of CEP TLK on request
2) grant a range to bioware-stock 2DA files on request
3) insert object placeholder models (just a dummy on a base) into the CEP hosted base hak (for each model required by builder's custom content).
4) content builder releases a CEP-ready package which sits on top of the CEP base hak and overrides the placeholder models.
5) content builder does not even need to package copies of their overrides for bioware-stock 2DA's because the CEP hak already contains all that data.
6) and CEP team does not need to host the builder's CEP-ready content, or otherwise package it, unless they feel like putting out quarterlies, or some other interval of standard release.

Personally, and I think I already mentioned this in this thread, I don't use CEP. I use parts of CEP. But if I was ever to release stuff that I wanted to fit with a larger CEP package, I would love to simply apply for a set of indices and go from there. Release my content already knowing that the current CEP release has a slot for my additions.

Actually, if I am not mistaken, I believe that is how some of the Sims community content worked.

So, as I would imagine it, a builder would submit a finished copy of their content. The CEP quartermaster would issue a range of indices in specific files, no more and no less than needed. No holding seats. If the builder needs more indices later, they apply for more so their additional content can be fitted to CEP.

Basically this allows a lot of people to work together very smoothly and offer a great deal of variety with little to no fuss at all.

So here is a little rundown of CEP jobs that would be created:

Index Manager: manages TLK and bioware-stock 2DA lines. This guy adds all the 2DA lines and TLK lines supplied by applicants to all bioware stock 2DA files. If the group works on tilesets, he's also be in charge of set file tile and group indices and would update set files to include applicant tiles in the proper sets.

Texture Manager: manages the texture stack so users know which textures come from which other builder's packages. This prevents texture duplication in the HAK stack, as well as creates a "#Requires" list that other builders can make use of. For instance, if I made a bunch of golems that require a previous builder's textures for my bodies, I could either make it clear that my HAK required the other HAK to be in the stack, or I could reissue the textures and risk making the overhead larger if the person already uses the other CEP-ready HAK.

Model Manager: Since this guy won't actually be working with the actual CEP-ready models, his job is much easier. All he has to do is provide a file with a dummy model for every appearance, placeable, or effect in the game (anything that calls a model). This guy might also manage portrait dummies for those entries as well. Since the file size is miniscule, and most are not loaded for use except in the toolset, the overhead created by this HAK is minimal.

Volume Team: Like a magazine team, this team packages a single download for all CEP-ready content up to the release date. CEP could release something quarterly, monthly, or just yearly if it feels lazy, or if there is jack for new content in a period. All the 2da and TLK work would have already been done by the index manager. All they'd have to do is pack all the new hak files into a single archive and release that volume as an addition to previous archive set, and then package a second archive including every single hak to date. That gives the user two ways to go, but supplies the exact same files.

So the best part of this system would be that nobody ever overrides another hak, unless that is intentional, in which case the overriding hack needs to be noted as such a type and be near the  top of the stack. Again, since there would only ever be one variety of any given 2DA, TLK, or SET, and it would be on the very bottom in a file full of dummies, it would be impossible to step on any toes or get lost in the ordering scheme. And again, that is because every single hak above the CEP base files would work no matter their order, except as mentioned where a hak purposely overwrites something, which should be extremely rare to non-existent. As far as I can see, this method gives a perfectly modular project where every piece is optional except the base package of well managed 2da/talk/set files and the model and texture dummies package.

Anyway, I feel like I am rambling a bit now, so I need to go eat. If anybody has any comments on this method of creating such a project, even if it does not take on the CEP name, PM me and lets talk.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Winterhawk99

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« Reply #204 on: January 25, 2014, 10:52:54 pm »


               Good luck for all those involved. All I have to say really
               
               

               
            

Legacy_FunkySwerve

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« Reply #205 on: January 25, 2014, 11:10:56 pm »


               

OldTimeRadio wrote...

While he didn't have much of a forum presence and kept a relatively low profile, Acaos of Higher Ground joined CEP team sometime between 2.0 and 2.1.  He set himself to the task of making CEP run as smoothy as possible and that involved almost single handedly going over the entirety of CEP 2.0 content and searching for errors, primarily model compilation errors, and fixing them.  This also extended to many other areas, like fixing PWKs/WOKs and a whole host of other things.  Sometimes writing custom made programs or using existing programs, like OldMansBeard's CleanModels, to assist him in this process.

He was an exceptionally talented person, maybe the perfect person, for such a task.  Anyone who's seen his work on HG, used NWN Explorer Reborn, used the model compiler/decompiler in it, Erf Tool Reborn (used for the CEP updater) or used any of his NWNX plugins would probably agree.  The guy had mad skills and the drive to carry tasks through to completion.

Now, people who interacted with a certain member or members of CEP might have come away with a rather dim view of them and made inferrences about the quality of of CEP based on those poor interactions.  These inferences, while natural, could be very misleading.

But behind the scenes, from CEP 2.1 to 2.3 (and a little beyond, IIRC), the actual CEP content was being expertly maintained, for the most part.  While CEP 2.4/2.4a were released (to my knowledge) without Acaos's assitance, I have every indication that his prior work was not altered or reverted, but added to.

I was lucky enough to speak with Acaos about this on occasion and even inspect his build setup myself (he built new versions of CEP, from scratch, on demand, using a mostly-automated process), which was more complex than any suggested in this thread so far, and involved SVN.  By the time CEP 2.3 rolled out the doors, was it perfect?  No.  But, overall, it was in far better shape than most people would guess and pretty damned tight.


I'm going to link Acaos this post, in case his ears aren't already burning. '<img'> I'm also going to speak to him about picking back up the updater, or something like it, as it's a sine qua non for me to use later CEP updates - our custom HG updater relies on it. I sent TAD a friend request to discuss working on something using that sort of updater, which is very similar to the SVN repo we use on HG. Acaos is too busy these days to run it himself, but, with a bit of his assistance, I could do it in his stead.

Funky
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Proleric

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« Reply #206 on: January 26, 2014, 12:49:19 am »


               MerricksDad and others have touched on the possibility of a self-service framework in which content makers can reserve lines and achieve compatibility independently. I find this attractive. The Dragon Age community established that it doesn't even need much administration,just a public wiki with guidance. A significant benefit it that it is easy for newcomers to join in.

Happy to help with a more centralised approach, though, as long as it's reasonably open.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon

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« Reply #207 on: January 26, 2014, 06:24:42 am »


               Just a minor progress update on my end.

I'm going to go with "CEP 2.60" for the name of the next update.  Yeah, not just 2.6, because I do plan on smaller updates later that won't warrant a whole tenth. '<img'>

So far (as in, just this afternoon) I have pulled all of the 2da files from the existing cep2_topv24.hak file and brought them into the Excel file I use for editing 2da files.

I also edited the line for the brownie dynamic appearance to change the weapon and tail scaling slightly, then copied the brownies' riding phenotype files and brownies' expanded robes that I made way back for the July 2012 CCC, placing them into a "content additions" folder.

I'm marking any 2da changes from 2.4 to 2.60 with colored rows, so that I can easily go through them when it's time to publish and make a list of exactly which 2da lines are added or changed.  Documentation, y'all! 'B)'  Make it easier for others to update their own haks if they combine CEP with their own collections (like I do).

So, yeah, some minor progress, even if I've been distracted the entire last week by "real life" (things like raising kids and brainstorming on something to do to celebrate International TableTop Day) and by the obsession with making new stuff for my PW that came from forcing myself to not open gmax for a week. ':blink:'



On a semi-related-to-CEP note, this week I edited my own copy of appearance.2da to clean up the model list in the toolset.  Between BioWare, CEP, Project Q, and my own stuff, the list was getting really full, and a lot of things were still in there that I'll never use.  Any models that I knew I'd never use (including some of the original BioWare appearances and a bunch of older ones from the CEP), I simply replaced the appearance names with ****.  Eliminates them from the toolset view, without having to actually erase every single full line I'm not currently using, making searching for appearances I do like much faster.  Not erasing the lines completely means I still have a reference if I want to go looking for a model to use as a basis for something new.  I really started just to get rid of the stone giant appearances that I've never liked or used, then got carried away until I'd gone through the entire list in the toolset (to see the models) and 2da (to make the edits).

And, since I color-code the rows in my personal edits of 2da files, it makes it easier for me to find "holes" were I can fill in newer content later.  Quickly scroll 'til I hit a white row, and I know I can use that one without conflicting with something I'm already using.

This might be a handy option for those builders that want to use some of the content found in the CEP, but don't feel like constantly scrolling through a bunch of appearances they'll never use.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Killmonger

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« Reply #208 on: January 26, 2014, 07:24:20 am »


               Thank you Amethyst Dragon....'Image
Your clarity upon this thread is most heartening...'Image
Gary would smile...'Image
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Zarathustra217

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« Reply #209 on: January 26, 2014, 11:51:23 am »


               AD, can one assume that the files in the current 2.4 are the most up to date? I am contemplating to begin running through placeable files to fix various issues. If we can somehow begin to organize the collaborate effort, I will also try to mobilize the creative talents in our PW community.

Or perhaps such questions/planning belong on the wikia page? Rest assured though, you need not worry about being on your own with this :-)