Fomenting Mutiny

[Legacy_henesua]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Henesua, I dont think a facelift is something that should be added to the cep. Same as new tilesets, classes, spells, scripts. Which some of those CEP2 already added :/ .

CEP was never "expansion" and cannot be imo. Any expansion must be much much smaller scope without changing original content (which NWEnhanced unfortunately did).

ShaDoOoW, I'm not following your reasoning on this. Perhaps you got things reversed?

• The CEP packages have always been about expansion of custom content.
• And facelifts/overrides are never about expansion, but instead improve the game's base graphic assets (meaning the stuff that Bioware released).

So are you saying that since CEP has been about organizing graphic assets that extend the game, overrides/facelifts should not be part of it?

Given my proposals above - that CEP change from being about one product, to a group with the mission of organizing Custom Content for the wider community, and that CEP projects should be modular, and interoperable - I don't understand why you have a problem with putting the CEP brand on a Facelift package.

Perhaps I haven't been clear enough:
Any CEP project I work on will be a stand-alone project which will work with any other CEP project. Meaning that it would NOT be added on to a monolithic, all or nothing download like CEP 2 is. The CEP 2 all or nothing approach was a mistake which I do not want to repeat.


I do however agree with you on your side-point that rules changes, game behavior changes, and the like should never be part of a project like CEP 2. If the were optional add ons, I have no problem with it. But to make such things integral to a generic custom content compilation is idiotic. And thankfully CEP 2 - as far as I know - has precious little of this.

As far as whether ERFs of scripts to help builders use the CEP content should be made available, I think that if a CEP project team wanted to maintain such a thing, more power to them. But yes, no scripts should be included in HAKs. Thats a terrible decision that leads to headaches for a scripter.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

Proleric1 wrote...

@Henesua - I pretty much agree with your points 1-5 (too long to quote on my current device) but the rest of your post is too complex for a simple yes/no. TAD mentioned a series of polls - some simple binary questions would be easier to handle.

Proleric, before any of my project proposals happen, we need a quorum of agreement on my points 1 -5.

Points 1 - 5 don't require anyone do any work, but they do require that a bunch of people who want to be part of a new CEP team get together with the understanding that CEP is now about a specific mission instead of one product, and is inclusive rather than exclusive of the community. Thats the basic gist. Its a significant change from the current setup, and we need enough people to support it and participate for it to happen.

As far as the projects I mentioned which could happen under such an organization, that really depends on what people want to do. If CEP was reorganized as I describe, people could simply break out into teams and start working on projects that they want to see happen. I think TAD is already on the CEP 2 bug fix project. And I created a wiki page to get started with identifying CEP2 stuff needing fixes. As far as I am concerned, anyone interested in that should talk with TAD. I don't think there is anything further to discuss about it in a general sense. That team needs to lay out some tasks and get to work.

As far as my desire to compile a facelift package goes, it won't happen under the CEP name if people generally disagree with Points 1 - 5.

As far as I am concerned silence is disagreement or lack of interest or simple uncomprhension. Anyone of those situations means "No" to me, and thats fine if it is the case. That said. I strongly think CEP needs a radical new direction, and think my proposal (Points 1 - 5) are the best to be put forth in this entire thread. Otherwise the vision is simply to double down on the status quo with the belief that more effort will solve the problem. I think more effort can get CEP2 fixed, but in the long run I don't see success as far as what CEP's default unspoken mission has been - to give users of NWN access to as much custom content as possible.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 16 janvier 2014 - 06:12 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_YeoldeFog]

               I am a builder, I am definately not a creator of custom content, so this is from a builders point of view. Well, -my- point of view because I can't speak for all the builders out there. '>
I don't use CEP because I think it's cluttered with a lot of low quality content. It's an old project, so I can't really blame it. That is simply my main concern about CEP, and that there is too much broken stuff as mentioned above.
A fixed, updated CEP? Sure, but I must agree with Bannor Bloodfist. Will this be possible? First, all that content needs to be updated, and that sounds like a huge project, making it work with everything. Then, people shall use it. That is - building a brand new module with the brand new CEP. When is that going to happen? Will NWN still have all those players around when that module is finished, taking advantage of the brand new CEP?

I don't want to halt or discourage anything here. But as a builder, I would like something different, something else... and that is smaller specialized chunks of content (let me call it modules) that are compatible with each others. Every module should have it's own specialized content, and it can  be combined with any other module.

Let me explain what a module could be.

A module could for example be a set of quality content of trees (placeables). Search the vault, find the best tree placeables and put it in a hak. Make a 2DA with specified lines that easily could be merged with any other module. Or if trees seems to narrow and specific, make it "foliage" and add bushes and grass there aswell.
 
Then make another module called "Walls and Pillars". Search the vault for the best walls and pillars and put it in the hak, and make it compatible with "foliage". Same goes for head, cloaks, arms, legs, items, placeables tiles, orcs, swords and holdable items!

Now before someone screams that I have hijacked this thread - what I wanted to say was. Take one chunk from CEP at a time, as bloodfist suggested, and finish it before you move on to the next chunk. And inbetween every chunk of work, content creators could add some brand new trees, or brand new walls to make it fresh and living.

This is what I would like to see, and I think that is something I could use while I'm still around. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par YeoldeFog, 16 janvier 2014 - 06:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               

ShaDoOoW wrote...

Henesua, I dont think a facelift is something that should be added to the cep. Same as new tilesets, classes, spells, scripts. Which some of those CEP2 already added :/ .

CEP was never "expansion" and cannot be imo. Any expansion must be much much smaller scope without changing original content (which NWEnhanced unfortunately did).

Now we're going to drag NwnE into it? Really? Expansion means ADDING content. NWnE was always about adding content - I should know I designed it. CEP has always been about expansion. The only difference between the two was the type of assets we decided to expand upon. Sorry neither project fit your vision, but its time to move on.

Furthermore, your Community Patch changes all kinds of Bioware content and is every bit as monolithic in nature as the CEP. That's its greatest strength. So why on earth would you bash a project for doing the same thing you did?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Pstemarie, 16 janvier 2014 - 07:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               YeoldeFog, you said a lot of stuff that I agree with.

However, the only thing I have heard as a definite plan is to fix CEP 2. All the rest is talk at this point.

I would prefer that otherwise people be allowed to talk about what they want.

If you aren't going to participate, your complaints about how much work is involved with any project is moot. Furthermore its counterproductive.

And most of all, organizing custom content is not hard if you know what you are doing. Most of the work is coordination with other people, and designing how it will all go together. I agree that those tasks are a gret deal of work. BUT once that is handled, the actual work of reindexing resources, and sticking stuff in HAKs is trivial if you know how to use computers as they were meant to be used - that is to automate repetitive tasks for you.

Fixing resources is work as well. It takes time due to all the testing you need to do. But if bugs are identified, and there is someone on the team that knows how to fix them, many bugs are trivial. An example is the bounding box around the slug above.

But the important take away message is that many of us know how to handle this stuff, and some of us can do this in our sleep. Nothing stated above is a collosal project. I've personally and single handedly organized, and reindexed custom content several times now for three different PWs, and the content has in each time exceeded the size of CEP 2. I learned how to do this on my own with hep on this forum. I am a new person on teh scene as far as this goes and its no big deal to me. We've got old hands at this participating in this thread whose abilities dwarf my skillset.

This ain't a big deal. It will be work, yes. But it can be done.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MerricksDad]

               mmmm...computerized automation...something just hit the bottom of the table

anyway, as much as I like CEP's content, and as much as people are adding off topic comments, I'd like to add my two cents:

I personally don't use CEP as a package. I'm not a PW builder anymore. I'm just a module guy. For modules, I find CEP to be a total waste of time, as is. When I was building from a PW standpoint, I actually took early CEP, CRP and other haks and merged only what I wanted into the world, saving a lot of picking and hunting in the toolset while building. I don't know how many PW folks agree with me on that point, maybe not many today, but I found CEP to be a huge waste of time packaged as it was. I would have preferred a neatly indexed library of resources rolled into a directory structure. One that I could pick and choose from easily and repackage. I realize 2DA and TLK work is actually "work" for some people, so I know that would not work for the majority of users.

I also say this stuff to you now using my time machine (not a TARDIS). You see, I am talking to you anywhere from 2000 to 2006. Back in this day, our computers are slower, and the toolset is crap.

I know this is heading off topic, kinda, but what I would prefer is an html form catalog that goes with the CEP package. When I was doing my 1000's of tiles in a single tileset deal, with a program to pick tiles and create on the fly SET files, I cataloged my tiles in two forms: 1) top down annotated drawings on graph paper, and 2) 2D still shots of every tile I created, taken from a certain forced angle that I managed by using GMAX functions. I kept the paper version, but not the screenshots, when I downsized all my old stuff (and lost 66k+ WoWC images too). Anyway, the idea is, I think, a good one, and something that the CEP staffers should take on once the project is on the tracks.

Following with that idea, check out this sims 3 store: here. Look down on the right side, this object has a little box that says "add to game" with some other links. Such a catalog would be great if it could pull out the required files associated with that resource and spit out some 2da line data and TLK data that you could add to your own haks.

I'm thinking out loud here, but if I were doing CEP by myself, I would do this.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Squatting Monk]

               

henesua wrote...

If you aren't going to participate, your complaints about how much work is involved with any project is moot. Furthermore its counterproductive.

I have to disagree with this. People need an accurate understanding of what they're signing up for if they join. It makes sense to have the discussion about the scope of the project and the work involved before people commit, not after.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

henesua wrote...

ShaDoOoW, I'm not following your reasoning on this. Perhaps you got things reversed?

• The CEP packages have always been about expansion of custom content.
• And facelifts/overrides are never about expansion, but instead improve the game's base graphic assets (meaning the stuff that Bioware released).

So are you saying that since CEP has been about organizing graphic assets that extend the game, overrides/facelifts should not be part of it?

Given my proposals above - that CEP change from being about one product, to a group with the mission of organizing Custom Content for the wider community, and that CEP projects should be modular, and interoperable - I don't understand why you have a problem with putting the CEP brand on a Facelift package.

Perhaps I haven't been clear enough:
Any CEP project I work on will be a stand-alone project which will work with any other CEP project. Meaning that it would NOT be added on to a monolithic, all or

Your reasoning why to do it s the same that I consider as why not to do it '> . i just see no relevance with CEP. Yes make a facelift project I think it is something that is missing here (though Zwerk covered almost everything tileset-basis already and my patch is covering some GUI improvements). But what it has to do with CEP? Why you intent to include it in CEP althought optional? Why just not do it as a standalone project?

Ok you right, why would that bother me if this is optional, hmm I guess it wont, I just think that you are trying to make CEP something it never was meant to be and that we should't change the CEP to be all content existing inclusive, all content existing compatible. Project Q and CEP are different things, I doesnt understand why some of you are suggesting a compatibility of CEP with Q, it smells with taking Q into CEP2 base (though Im sure you dont intent this TAD when you make it officially compatible it will be practically it just that a builder have to download q elsewhere) which seems to me like an apples and oranges. If I were Q member I wouldnt like a worlds combining Q with CEP really. But Im not so you can ignore my opinion on this :innocent:

Pstemarie wrote...

Now we're going to drag NwnE into it?
Really? Expansion means ADDING content. NWnE was always about adding
content - I should know I designed it. CEP has always been about
expansion. The only difference between the two was the type of assets we
decided to expand upon. Sorry neither project fit your vision, but its
time to move on.

Furthermore, your Community Patch changes all
kinds of Bioware content and is every bit as monolithic in nature as the
CEP. That's its greatest strength. So why on earth would you bash a
project for doing the same thing you did?

It is all connected. CEP, Q, CTP, CMP, CCP, CPP, NWNE and also HR,CRAP (EDIT: and CUP of course!). In days of CEP1 it was nice as the CEP didnt interfered with this other content. Then Barry came and tried to make a CEP to be all this inclusive. This was imo terrible decision and its the main reason why I am ignoring CEP2.
I think that each of these project should support themselves. Maybe except CCP, all of them does something different and there is no reason to combine them.

I didnt want to discuss NWNE nor Q nor CPP. I wanted to point out that CEP was never designed to be expansion in the true nature opposed to NWNE. So I think we shouldnt try to make it one.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 17 janvier 2014 - 03:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

MerricksDad wrote...

I personally don't use CEP as a package. I'm not a PW builder anymore. I'm just a module guy. For modules, I find CEP to be a total waste of time, as is. When I was building from a PW standpoint, I actually took early CEP, CRP and other haks and merged only what I wanted into the world, saving a lot of picking and hunting in the toolset while building. I don't know how many PW folks agree with me on that point, maybe not many today, but I found CEP to be a huge waste of time packaged as it was. I would have preferred a neatly indexed library of resources rolled into a directory structure. One that I could pick and choose from easily and repackage. I realize 2DA and TLK work is actually "work" for some people, so I know that would not work for the majority of users.

Exactly my point of view as well. Im still using the old CEP1, but CEP2 seems to me like a waste. I wasnt even able to found that 4gigabytes of extra content over CEP1. Found like 500 creature models which most of was reskins of old/bioware's anyway and there is lot of placeables, but without blueprints which I havent found anywhere to download (ok for project of this scope they shouldnt be in haks I understand that) its like its not there. Especially for placeables, using creatures is easy without blueprints but builder needs blueprints for placeables, if there arent whats the point.

I dont mind having 5 gigabytes of content on my disk, I dont mind having all the content ever created on disk, but when its compiled into one set of haks it makes everything super slowly and crashy for almost no gain since there is lot of content I will never use. I like the way how it works in NWN2 though we are probably not able to make this work here, not without a client modification. So nah, Im not interested in any of the new CEP2 update.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               Ok, here are my thoughts, from when I decided to instigate this little mutiny until now (after reading everythings in this thread and the beginnings of a CEP wiki).

My original goal: Update the CEP, keeping it useable by folks like myself that already use version 2.1 - 2.4.  Add new content, fix bugs, publish.  Not taking any content out of CEP haks or moving all of the CEP content into haks with other names, just keeping the thing from dying off completely, since we haven't seen an update in almost three years to something a lot of folks use for servers and/or single player modules.

The idea for optional modular use was mentioned. I had one idea laid out, then scrapped it when I came up with a better method (built on existing CEP haks plus new content, but with various modular "control/top" haks for 2da files, set files, etc.).

The entire idea still being that there be a single download for all players and builders, with the same files included, so that a builder could decide what to use ("classic/default" or "modular"), and any player with the latest CEP would be able to play that module (assuming a CEP-only module here).  Or even that a builder could still use CEP 2.1 to 2.4 if he/she wants, and players with the latest download would be able to just play that module/server without having to download extra "legacy" haks.

In regards to a "merger" with Project Q, my thought was only to offer an option for builders with the 2da files and such pre-merged.  Not including Project Q itself.  Probably going to just dump this from consideration, because it would have to be updated every time either Q or CEP gets updated to stay useable, and it could never be a great option (if people want to use both Q and CEP in their module, they likely have more content they want to merge files for anyway).

With the CEP, a builder can download the files, add them his/her module,
and build.  No worrying about merging 2da or tlk files, or checking to
see if players have the right combination of files downloaded. At the
moment it's only partially modular, but it's pretty easy to work with.

As far as totally changing the focus of CEP...I've never seen it as an "organization/group", nor as a "brand"...simply a collection of community-made content bundled together to make it easier for builders to access a large variety of stuff.

Instead of changing the focus of a project that has had the same focus since it's inception (what? a decade ago?), why not start up a new "umbrella organization" that would pick and choose what content to include and put out to the community?  Maybe call it "Committee for Improving NWN" or something along those lines.  There's still a few people working in the Academy of Modding Excellence, perhaps there's an untapped demand for an Academy of Content Excellence.

I have no delusions of, or aspirations toward, a massive and far-reaching undertaking.  I think it's perfectly manageable to make some reasonable updates to the CEP, including a mix of bug fixes and new content.  I know I couldn't just do bug fixes...I do have that constant call to create new things (like today when I was able to cross four new/updated creature models off my to-do list that I created while on a self-imposed 1 week hiatus from gmax).

Some of us do have other things that take up time in our lives.  In
addition to NWN, I'm a stay at home dad with four young kids (ages
3-10), a house I'm fixing up to sell, and a wife that sometimes likes a
little social interaction from her spouse. My NWN time comes mainly
after everyone else is asleep and after I've squeezed in a little
exercise (I average 4-5 hours of sleep a night).  Sometimes I'll even
pull our my big ol' M60 and mow people down in a hail of bullets for a
few minutes (CoD: Black Ops on the Wii).

I just wouldn't vanish for a year+ without coercing tricking bribing someone with cookies asking someone else nicely to take over coordination. '>

I had originally started with a possible version jump to CEP 3, just to carry across that "under new management" feeling, but calling it CEP 2.5, or 2.6, CEP: Revival (CEPr 2.5?), or whatever would work as well.  Never meant the "CEP 3" title to imply rebuilding the entire thing from scratch and leaving older modules/servers/content behind.

As far as CCC stuff not getting released for months...that happened only once (back with the steampunk stuff when I had just taken over coordination and was hoping for more than 2 submissions for that month, but never got them).  Sure, I may take a couple weeks after the 1st sometimes to post stuff, but I still get it collected and out.  I was just finishing up stuff today when I discovered that one submission I thought I already had in was missing an email attachment.  When that one comes in, it'll all get posted to the new Vault.

And now, I shall stop rambling, as I have to get up in 4 1/2 hours to take my kids to school.

Edited to add: As far as the CEP "missing blueprints"...one great way for "beginners" to contribute might be to use the toolset to make basic blueprints for all those placeables, creatures, and doors to include in a collection of .erfs that could be packaged included in the CEP download to be imported.  Maybe one .erf for each category or subcategory in the CEP palettes?

I say .erfs, simply because they're easy for a builder to import, and once imported they can be edited or deleted as the builder sees fit (rather than included in a regular or "build" hak).

And if making placeable blueprints, please consider making them set to "static", for people that just want to lay out an area and decorate it without having to edit the properties of every painting or table to make it so.  Thanks!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 17 janvier 2014 - 09:10 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               Ok cep2 update then. I suggest not to move to v3 in name from the reason that many out there expect the CEP3 to be something else than you planning.

RE: fixes, you dont have to fix single model yourself. All you have to do is to set up updater again and allow peoples like me to upload any fixes they do in the CEP2 content. Hmm ok - so you will have to approve it and add it into the updater but thats something you can do once per week or once the sent files reach certain count. No need to wait for new version to use a fixed placeable or creature model don't you think?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_OldTimeRadio]

               @Amethyst Dragon - Seems reasonable.  Thanks for taking this on!  
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

In regards to a "merger" with Project Q, my thought was only to offer an option for builders with the 2da files and such pre-merged.  Not including Project Q itself.  Probably going to just dump this from consideration, because it would have to be updated every time either Q or CEP gets updated to stay useable, and it could never be a great option (if people want to use both Q and CEP in their module, they likely have more content they want to merge files for anyway).

TAD, everything you wrote is a solid plan and I truly feel is the best way to proceed - it beneifts all stakeholders to some degree and doesn't leave anyone in the dust. All around it's a great compromise that will cement CEP's future and keep it viable. You've got my support.

This being said, I highlighted the above quote simply to say that I am greatly relieved that a CEP/Q Merge is off the table - for the time being. I am not willing to see Q merged with CEP, nor am I willing to change Q so that it is CEP compatible. What I am willing to do is work with you (and Andarian as he's done the CEP merger too - and if he's willing) to catalog the conflicting resources, making it easier for people that wish to come in and merge the two for their own use. This resource list could be maintained on both the Q site and the CEP site to make it highly visible for those that wish to use it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               AD I seem to remember you saying something about keeping older versions of the 2da's. Have you considered using version control software for this? As 2da's are just plain text such software should be eminently suitable. If you do go down this route I would suggest some form of subversion such as TortoiseSVN.

TR 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

The Amethyst Dragon wrote...

As far as totally changing the focus of CEP...I've never seen it as an "organization/group", nor as a "brand"...simply a collection of community-made content bundled together to make it easier for builders to access a large variety of stuff.

Instead of changing the focus of a project that has had the same focus since it's inception (what? a decade ago?), why not start up a new "umbrella organization" that would pick and choose what content to include and put out to the community?  Maybe call it "Committee for Improving NWN" or something along those lines.  There's still a few people working in the Academy of Modding Excellence, perhaps there's an untapped demand for an Academy of Content Excellence.

The purpose of starting up an umbrella organization that explicitly takes on the CEP mission is to reduce the workload of CEP projects so that CEP projects can be rolled out in manageable pieces rather than the monolithic mess that it is now. It is also an effort to get more people involved and to avoid the need to foment mutiny just to keep the CEP 2 project alive.

It doesn't make sense to start it as a new organization since it achieves its mission by providing support for the project you are working on. Providing this support without getting in your way I might add given how I structured it in those 5 proposals. The CEP 2 project would manage itself without interference by too large of a team or whatever. You would retain full control of it as you do now - with the exception that you no longer HAVE TO curate the files because the wider community would work out a means to ensure that the project and the documentation remain accessible to all. CEP 3 modules could then be defined in very manageable pieces and taken on individually, rather than trying to do it all at once which is why CEP 2 caused so much pain when it eclipsed rather than evolved from CEP 1. Each small piece of the CEP can then be worked on one by one and coordinated together.

Thats my purpose, and thats how its structured based on how I proposed it. My purpose is to learn from the mistakes of the past and solve them.

I respect your decision, TAD, thats fine. You don't have to be for this. But please avoid mischaracterizing something just because you disagree with or misunderstand it. My proposal doesn't have to happen of course, but would result in a reduced workload and the possibility that CEP is still supported and does something when you are gone. And it doesn't require you to do anything. It requires other people to step forward to take on the unfun tasks of documentation, managing the websites, vault entries etc.... And for this group of people to crreate a system so that the accounts to the content are held by a trusted person, but at the same time can't be held hostage by one person.

If this is not to happen. No problem. But better that people understand what they are turning down, rather than succomb to misinformation.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par henesua, 17 janvier 2014 - 02:44 .