Author Topic: Skinmesh questions  (Read 714 times)

Legacy_Zwerkules

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Skinmesh questions
« on: October 20, 2013, 01:58:09 pm »


               I'm working on a skinmeshed creature for the first time and have a few questions:

The body is one skinmesh and the head with the neck another. In one animation the head is moved so far that
there is a gap between the body and the neck. Now if only the neck was a little longer the gap would be gone, but
when I try to edit the mesh Gmax tells me that the skin modifier depends on it and changing the mesh may have
undesired effects. Do I just ignore the warning, add some faces and then paint the bone weights on the added faces,
or do I have to remove the skin modifier, do my changes, add the skin and bones etc again? '<img'>

'Image

Most of the animations work well, but there's the one shown in the screenshot where the lower part of the leg goes
right through the upper part. If I change the bone weights it might break other animations and almost all the other animations work well. I think it should be the animation that should be changed. Since I've never done that before
I could use some help. Is there anybody willing to fix that animation?

There is another animation where the hands are raised far above the head and the arms are crossed there.
This deforms the arm pits alot. ':sick:'
My beginner skills are not enough to fix this by changing the bone weights without making some other animations look bad instead. Maybe someone with more experience with skin meshes can fix that.

This dryad got the animations from the Bioware nymph model which has a dancing animation which overrides the taunt animation. Can I rename it to one of the names of the custom animations so I can use both animations?
If so, I'll also add the giggle animation from the Bioware drayd which overrides the laughing animation and make that a custom one.

If there's someone who wants to take a look at the model and maybe fix it, I'll upload it.


Edit: This model uses an NWN2 head made by Xaltar which is rather high poly but looks good and I'd rather not replace it by a low poly one. The whole creature has about 6000 polygons. Is that too much even for a boss type creature?
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Zwerkules, 20 octobre 2013 - 01:14 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

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Skinmesh questions
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2013, 06:03:32 pm »


               <opening a can of worms...>

Zwerkules wrote...
The body is one skinmesh and the head with the neck another. In one animation the head is moved so far that
there is a gap between the body and the neck. Now if only the neck was a little longer the gap would be gone, but
when I try to edit the mesh Gmax tells me that the skin modifier depends on it and changing the mesh may have
undesired effects. Do I just ignore the warning, add some faces and then paint the bone weights on the added faces,
or do I have to remove the skin modifier, do my changes, add the skin and bones etc again? '<img'>

To be clear, your head and neck are a skin mesh weighted on a neck and head bone geometry, yes? The key there is that bones can be used for more than one skinmesh, so weight the bottom ring of verts on the neck 100% to the top torso bone. That way the bottom of the neck is stuck like glue to the default position (which should coincide with the neck-hole on the body skin, *also* 100% to the top torso bone.

The middle verts of the neck should be partially influenced by the top torso but mostly influenced by the neck bone. Then you transition the head mesh over to the head bone under the jaw, so that if the head bone turns, the twist is in the neck. Weight all of the head verts 100% to the head bone. Hair, if it's dangly, should *not* be skin and should be linked to the head bone.

( pic )

Most of the animations work well, but there's the one shown in the screenshot where the lower part of the leg goes right through the upper part. If I change the bone weights it might break other animations and almost all the other animations work well. I think it should be the animation that should be changed. Since I've never done that before I could use some help. Is there anybody willing to fix that animation?

There is another animation where the hands are raised far above the head and the arms are crossed there.
This deforms the arm pits alot. ':sick:'
My beginner skills are not enough to fix this by changing the bone weights without making some other animations look bad instead. Maybe someone with more experience with skin meshes can fix that.

I have a need for that luscious thing ;-) So I'd be willing to look at it, work with you on it (in chat right now, in fact).

I'm seeing a lot of seams in the mesh, so it looks like you've mostly just converted the nymph pieces into a single, multi-element mesh.Edit: We might go faster if I repurpose my Damned: Heartless model (just replace the head, since it's the eyes I'm having problems with, anyway :-P
'Image
( click to see eye issue )

The Damned skinmesh is a two-part torso-legs & shoulder-arms to allow me to have more bones in the arms (I want to animate those hands, eventually ;-) It's not perfect, as I got quite frustrated with the eyes, which turn sideways in combat and get stuck ;-P /end edit

This dryad got the animations from the Bioware nymph model which has a dancing animation which overrides the taunt animation. Can I rename it to one of the names of the custom animations so I can use both animations?
If so, I'll also add the giggle animation from the Bioware drayd which overrides the laughing animation and make that a custom one.

That *is* a bit of a can of monkey-worms :-P 
Renaming the anim on the rollout is fine, but that doesn't actually move any keys.
You must be precise with that. 
So you rename the anim... (by the way, the custom anims have a start, loop and end slot, so you are breaking up a single anim into 2 or 3 parts).
Then you decide where to import the regular taunt anim. (write down the frames!)
Use the anim mapper to grab the normal taunt anim from another female model, mapping each piece to the proper bone... in the proper frame.

So it *can* be done, but it's a bit of skull-sweat to make it work. Save often to multiple backups :-)

If there's someone who wants to take a look at the model and maybe fix it, I'll upload it.

Please :-) Do you Dropbox ;-)

Edit: This model uses an NWN2 head made by Xaltar which is rather high poly but looks good and I'd rather not replace it by a low poly one. The whole creature has about 6000 polygons. Is that too much even for a boss type creature?

I forget exactly where the Danmed are, but they are around that mark. My metallic dragons (languishing in Cestus' cob-web-shrouded forge) are around 10,000. These work fine on my budget laptop (for bosses).

<...like he expects a barrel of monkeys>
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Rolo Kipp, 20 octobre 2013 - 09:15 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #2 on: January 18, 2014, 10:49:29 pm »


               Another question about skin meshes.
I've made a creature that consists of two skins, one for the head and neck and one for the rest of the body. The colour of the neck doesn't match the body exactly, but that is probably because of two different values of shininess in the head and the body mesh, which I'll fix with a text editor (why one skin got a shiness of 10.0 while the other one has only 1.0 I have no idea).

'Image

Because of the difference in colour it becomes obvious that the neck 'cuts' into the torso. This looks bad with animations like 'laughing' where the head is moved far back.
If I were to align the lowest vertices of the neck of the head skin with the highest vertices of the body skin, the neck wouldn't cut into the torso, but would there be holes when the head is moved back even if I make those vertices influenced 100% by the neck bone in both skins, or could that solve the problem?

Just joining both skins is not an option because the head needs a texture with an alpha layer.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_YeoldeFog

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« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2014, 10:57:58 pm »


               What head is that? It looks really nice.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_ShadowM

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« Reply #4 on: January 19, 2014, 05:48:38 am »


               If you use snap to vertex to match the the vertex points but keep them separate and give the bottom vertexes control by the bodies bones and the upper neck and head to the head mesh then it looks great.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #5 on: January 19, 2014, 09:57:24 am »


               

YeoldeFog wrote...

What head is that? It looks really nice.


I got Xaltar's permission to use heads he made for NWN2. I make new textures for them and have to change the UVW mapping a bit, otherwise it is all made by Xaltar. The eyes and hair are separate meshes though, which I made myself. They are pretty low poly compared to the ones Xaltar's head used which had nearly 4500 polygons, whereas the hair I made has less than a tenth of that. This looks okay for the hair, but reducing the polygons of the head would have changed it too much in a bad way, so I left them alone, even though 3600 is a pretty high polycount for a head for NWN1. The engine handles it pretty well. They just take a little longer to load.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_YeoldeFog

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« Reply #6 on: January 19, 2014, 10:24:55 am »


               Is it going to be released for public? Damn, I feel like I'm leeching everything you make, Zwerkules! '<img'>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #7 on: January 19, 2014, 10:45:37 am »


               

YeoldeFog wrote...

Is it going to be released for public? Damn, I feel like I'm leeching everything you make, Zwerkules! '<img'>


The whole model will be released, but not any body parts. I don't like body parts because of the PLTs and no transparency. You can separate the head from the body if you want to use it, but you'd have to get rid of some parts of the hair and the eye lashes because they have to be transparent and you'd also have to make PLTs from the TGAs.

So far this is the only human model, but I've got two elfs, too.

For the final version I'll have to make the models a little smaller because at the moment they are all taller than human males.

If you download this when it is released and use the head for other models, don't forget Xaltar's name in the credits.

Edit: I finished changing the neck parts of the head and the body skin and the animations look better now and there are no gaps between the two meshes. However there is still a difference in colour between the two meshes even though they use the same smoothing groups and both textures use the same skin colour for the neck.
It is as I feared, if you have two separate meshes that use smoothing groups you always get a visible seam.
I've seen the same in trees which have the trunks cut in two for tilefade to work. Even if both parts are mapped as one so the texture matches exactly there still is a visible seam especially when a light source of any kind is near it.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Zwerkules, 19 janvier 2014 - 12:20 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_MerricksDad

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« Reply #8 on: January 19, 2014, 02:19:09 pm »


               

Zwerkules wrote...

I've seen the same in trees which have the trunks cut in two for
tilefade to work. Even if both parts are mapped as one so the texture
matches exactly there still is a visible seam especially when a light
source of any kind is near it.


I've always hated that, which is why I attach my base heads onto the main skinmesh. I am currently hiding all the seems under accessory bits, but I am getting away from having the entire body be a single skin when I can. They just take too long to modify if I want something slightly different.

Have you thought about having a base head shape attached to your torso skin? Then use transparent decals at the head node to paint a face and hair onto the skin? I have been thinking about it, but haven't tried it.

I don't really have a need at the moment to try it, but that is just because my current module work has a set story line and I am locked into some specific character appearances that PC's take on throughout the story, instead of using PC models.

Let me know if you try the face decal trick. Just a warning though: if the face decal is not also a skin, it may slide away from the head skin during certain animations, especially during multi attacks per round animation. A floating face decal near a faceless head is a sure game-killer.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #9 on: January 19, 2014, 02:59:28 pm »


               

MerricksDad wrote...

Let me know if you try the face decal trick. Just a warning though: if the face decal is not also a skin, it may slide away from the head skin during certain animations, especially during multi attacks per round animation. A floating face decal near a faceless head is a sure game-killer.


The eyes of the head are a separate mesh which is not a skin. I've linked them to the head_g bone and never had any problems with them, but I haven't seen any multi attacks per round animations yet.
If the eyes are linked to the skin mesh head instead of the bone I get those problems you describe. Not a whole floating face, but eyes far from the face.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #10 on: January 19, 2014, 04:52:59 pm »


               I've uploaded the models to the new vault now, so YeoldeFog can separate the heads from the bodies if he likes to.'<img'>

Edit: I've tested four of these skinmeshed women in one area all near to each other at the same time and the engine can handle those 6000 polygons per creature pretty well, so they don't have to be unique. You can use more than one of them in an area.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Zwerkules, 19 janvier 2014 - 04:57 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Wall3T

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« Reply #11 on: January 19, 2014, 08:36:01 pm »


               i checked out the file but i dont know how to get it to work exactly.

neverwintervault.org/project/nwn1/hakpak/original-hakpak/skinmesh-female-models

i was wanting to look at what xaltars' been up to. are they suppose to replace the generic dynamic models, or seperate creature models?

edit:
wait i see it now. it was replaced by the waitress models. nevermind ':pinched:'
               
               

               


                     Modifié par oOKyeOo, 19 janvier 2014 - 08:39 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #12 on: January 19, 2014, 08:50:31 pm »


               They don't replace the waitress model, it is still there. I just used the tlk line number for 'waitress' in the appearance.2da so they all are waitresses now. The lines I used are taken up by other haks, too, lines 309 to 311.
If the strref for them is repaced by **** in the 2da file they'll be shown as Naked_A, Naked_B and Naked_C instead of Waitress.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Zwerkules, 19 janvier 2014 - 08:54 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_KlatchainCoffee

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« Reply #13 on: January 19, 2014, 09:35:37 pm »


               I don't suppose you could do a 'dryad' version with partial cover of leaves/flowers (at least on texture level)?

Looking good, otherwise. '<img'>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Zwerkules

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« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2014, 03:51:50 pm »


               I sent the dryad to the Amethyst Dragon. It will be in the next update of the plants CCC.
This was the model I made before the other three.
If you don't mean an actual dryad, but some textures with fig leaves, I can do that.