"Ask not what the CEP can do for you, but ..."

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               The CEP would need a carefull planed rearrangement of all the "free for all" content and its linkage leaving out the CEP Team only specials. Its a huge undertaking but what choice is left for dedicated builders that gets no or nonconstructive support.

Yeah _six the idea for a downgrade pakage is the best way to go imo. But how much tedious time consuming work that 2da, itp and tlk editing is uh ...
               
               

               

                     Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 28 juin 2012 - 09:07 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               The way to solve this problem is to start fresh. Abandon the existing CEP, and come up with a new model for how you handle a community expansion pack. Obviously the existing model is a failure.

I don't see any issue with creating the final fix for CEP 1 and 2 compatibility issues but its a seperate project for posterity's sake, and isn't forward thinking.

Looking forward a new CEP team should consider why the CEP project has failed as it has. The answer to me is obvious. It collapsed under its own weight. And I think the way forward is to manage a leaner project. Figure out what the absolute essential upgrades are that could be shared by all projects. Or figure out how to make interoperable pieces for a CEP. A CEP phenotype project for example would still be a huge project, but could be an essential HAK for all modules considering how time consuming and large getting all the heads, and clothing, animations, phenotypes etc..... is.

Anyway... just my thoughts.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Pstemarie]

               Maybe what's really needed is a Community based project to upgrade the modules to CEP 2.x compliance. That way the CEP Team can continue to soldier on and a new team can focus on doing what's necessary to get those dusty modules upto snuff.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               

henesua wrote...

The way to solve this problem is to start fresh. Abandon the existing CEP, and come up with a new model for how you handle a community expansion pack. Obviously the existing model is a failure.

I don't see any issue with creating the final fix for CEP 1 and 2 compatibility issues but its a seperate project for posterity's sake, and isn't forward thinking.

Looking forward a new CEP team should consider why the CEP project has failed as it has. The answer to me is obvious. It collapsed under its own weight. And I think the way forward is to manage a leaner project. Figure out what the absolute essential upgrades are that could be shared by all projects. Or figure out how to make interoperable pieces for a CEP. A CEP phenotype project for example would still be a huge project, but could be an essential HAK for all modules considering how time consuming and large getting all the heads, and clothing, animations, phenotypes etc..... is.

Anyway... just my thoughts.

While I still have a glimmer of hope that the CEP as a true "Community Project" can be salvaged, I'm also a realist and agree with Henesu that perhaps a fresh look is needed. It couldn't hurt. I think the idea of wrapping up version 2 of the CEP and starting a fresh set as a CEP 3.0 or even a new name with better planning and organisazation has lots of merits. If such were ever done, I'd personally like to see more cooperation with other projects like Project Q and the CTP.

In regards to the CTP specifically, I was fine when the CEP decided to expand tileset options ... so long as those options did not exist as a completed package elsewhere. The Dwarven Halls the CEP added kind of irked me do to already have been a part of the CTP at the time. Expanding the Bioware tilesets is one thing, but when they added the Dwarven Halls, they violated their own guidelines. Its a shame. It just created a rift between the CEP and the CTP in the end. What's worse, the CEP adaption isn't really fit for use by most builders if it will hold hostile encounters. Why? Because PCs and NPCs alike can aim missile weapons and spells through solid walls. That makes it pretty hard to setup challenging and suprising encounters IMO.

In regards to Project Q, again, there's no sound reasons that the two could exist side by side and compliment each other. Sure, there are "reasons" they can not, just not "sound reasons". Egos and tempers collided and in the end make the community at large suffer for the actions of only a few. Inorder to thrive, the present CEP or any successor HAS to go out of its way to at least attempt to coexist with other projects and them with the CEP.

The past few years, I've lobbied again and again for the CEP Team to recruit fresh blood and try and get back some old hands. That's no big secret. Sadly, for that same time period the project has continued to shrink. Many that had been members in the past have given up. Why? I'll tell you only what I've been told personally by a few of them. They won't be bothered to work with the current leader. Others that have skillsets to aid the CEP have declined for those same reasons as well. Its a shame really. A true "Community" asset and one of the main reasons why NWN has lasted this long is being held in a deathgrip by one or a few individuals too selfish and egotisical to work as a true team and for the community at large.

The CEP at one time WAS a true community project. PW Admins, Builders, Scripters and even players used to ask questions that were responded to and make suggestions that the CEP either took on or declined with at least a reason as to why not. All that changed under Barry's "leadership". I use that term, "leadership", loosely. Its been more of a dictatorship. Legitimate questions go unanswered when asked. Bug reports have been ignored constantly. Suggestions uncommentted on, and most recently, Barry himself has stated he'll have nothing to do with these boards nor the other previous CEP Forums. Well, enough is enough.

I've had lots of quiet support both here and elsewhere lately. I thank folks for it. Instead of quiet support however, I'd like to me individuals that feel the same claim it outloud as well. Write to past CEP Members as I have. Convince them to return. If you've skills that the CEP can use, let them know and make an honest effort to help. There is still time for the Community at large to save the CEP.

I've had a few accuse me of trying to take over the CEP myself. That's actually pretty funny. I'm the first to admit I'm ill suited personally to such a task. That however does not mean I won't back "others". Like most of the NWN Community my wishes are pretty simple. 1) Keep me informed. Give me an occasional heads up as to what is "coming soon". PW Builders and Admins need to know these things so we can plan accordingly. 2) Respect me enough to respond. Don't ignore my bug reports or complaints. Don't leave suggestions left out to rot with never a reply. Lastly ... 3) Keep your promises. If something is claimed to be "backwards" compatible, then it should infact remain so. If something added is found to be unworkable, then remove it and stop wasting resources and time. I'll understand if there's a msitake. "Stuff" happens. The best intentions, no matter how well thought out still often fail. I can deal with that as can most others. In short, what I and most others I know desire, is what the CEP under Barry's supposed leadership has failed miserably to provide. It wasn't always this way. It need not continue either.

Anyone of us here will get on each others nerves or step on some toes at some point. It cannot be helped unless you merely sit on the fence and never comment. It's human nature. It's a given. It'll happen. Most of us will "get over it" and still work with each other for the common good. That's the difference. In this case, the common good translates to preserving and revitalizing the CEP in one form or another. Sign up, speak out and keep the faith.

nwncep.forumotion.com/forum

I encourage all here, whether they agree with my own views or not to sign up and chime in. If not, then don't complain later. *brings to mind all the folk he knows over the years that have complained about "Bush", "Clinton", "Oboma", etc..., but never once even bothered to vote*
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_TheExcimer-500]

               The CEP has not "failed".
Please be patient, we'll be in touch with a status update on the project soon.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_TheExcimer-500]

               Leading a rally cry at this time is going to be counter-productive to your goals. Please devote your energy to helping. Right now, I would like a list of these "bugs" to be posted on the CEP forum so that I can use my time to fix them instead of scanning these forums for them.

Thank you and please be patient.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <looking around for otr...>

Personally, I'd like to revive the idea I posted in Tools & Plugins.
Make a Module Optimizer and it's dark twin, the Module Deoptimizer.

Builders Deoptimize their entire library of haks (which means a smart 2DA/filename collator).
Builders build their module without worrying about which hak had what.
Builder's finish (with version control) Module and run the MOptimizer.
MOptimizer strips hak down to module-specific content (with version control).
Player installs MOptimized module. At installation, MOptimizer validates MOptimized hak with module. If not valid, builds or downloads correct hak.

I simply can not believe with all this talent and all this understanding of the EFF file structure that we can not make a wrapper for NwN that can intelligently handle content. Working with 2DAs is not *difficult*, it's tedious. Exactly what computers were made to handle.

And all the heat and excitment the CEP vs Q vs Mothra vs Ultraman threads are really predicated on the assumption that no one will ever automate version/content control for NwN.

And, yeah, I like modular haks. On the builder side.
On the server side I like one lean hak.
On the player side, I like one lean hak.

And those are *my* strange little thoughts. :-P

<...'cuz he thinks around corners, too>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Rolo, that would be interesting and would be the preferred way of packaging content in NWN.

But who is going to do this? And who is going to compile the total archive of all NWN content? Who decides what is a new version of an art asset?

I would prefer that a project like this replace the CEP, but it is a large project and would require better web services (its essentially a data project) than the vault is currently offereing. Kinda like a better Google Warehouse hooked into SVN.

Also, a builder would still need to add their "tophak" to the mix since 2das are more than just content lists, but can be very useful for modifying game behaviors in module specific ways.

(I slimmed down my haks once by hand.... what a PITA)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Rolo Kipp]

               <looking like...>

henesua wrote...
Rolo, that would be interesting and would be the preferred way of packaging content in NWN.

But who is going to do this? And who is going to compile the total archive of all NWN content? Who decides what is a new version of an art asset?

Actually.... Funky & Virusman pointed me at Ruby and the Nwn-lib. Which I am learning in a back-burner capacity.
And I went and started the 
NwN Custom Content site (currently empty) with the idea of
1) datamining every official file for every official resource and
2) building a db of said resources that not only listed/displayed it but also allowed d/l of elemental pieces.

Re: versioning control. Heh. A bit over my depth there. *Kinda* hoping for help... down the road, anyway :-)

I would prefer that a project like this replace the CEP, but it is a large project and would require better web services (its essentially a data project) than the vault is currently offereing. Kinda like a better Google Warehouse hooked into SVN.

I don't really want to replace CEP. I want to obviate the need for CEP haks, but the original mission of CEP was to expand the content available to NwN. That is the mission of Project Q and CTP and... and the CCC. CEP has just kinda gotten away from that mission.

Yeah, it would need work and it would be a labor of love and it's all far too much for me to do by myself. OTOH, I'm *starting* on it. And intend to slog ahead.

Also, a builder would still need to add their "tophak" to the mix since 2das are more than just content lists, but can be very useful for modifying game behaviors in module specific ways.

Not "need" to. "May". I completely agree that what you *can* do with 2DAs is absolutely astounding.

I'll even go further in that content that is common to a majority of modules might attain "patch" status and be incorporated without trimming by the MOptimizer. Alternatively, the MOptimizer, as a wrapper for the launcher, may build the hak at run-time (synching with server for multi-player), incorporating the newest and best content uploads,

(I slimmed down my haks once by hand.... what a PITA)

I would think it'd be a pain in the fingers... <figure of speech, wizard>
Ahhh...

<...his head is going to explode>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

Rolo Kipp wrote...

I don't really want to replace CEP. I want to obviate the need for CEP haks, but the original mission of CEP was to expand the content available to NwN. That is the mission of Project Q and CTP and... and the CCC. CEP has just kinda gotten away from that mission.

I meant in terms of on what people in the community spend their time. Rather than see a new CEP team arise, I'd rather a project like this get some resources applied to it.

Maybe you could slim down your project to just work with the Community Content Challenge. Perhaps that would be a good beginning, and eliminate the need to do datamining. You've got all the data.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_SHOVA]

               I am for a new C.E.P. V3, for a number of reasons. I believe it is due, simply because so many things have changed since v1 was first released. While Barry said that the C.E.P. was intended to be backwards compatible, since v2_4 came out it has not been, so to me that argument is moot. The current version breaks the older versions. Even the latest quick fix to 4_a, still causes problems with earlier things. Reporting those issues is a exercise in futility with the current administration. It is met with silence, or worse. That does nothing for our community, let alone for    the new people joining us.

There are a number of other issues that a V3 could solve, from my own list:
Naming the haks in order of how they are added.
Smaller haks available to down load, in addition to the massive hak set.
add blueprints as separate haks, broken up by type.
separation of haks by type. a placeable, creature, pc-part, items, etc.
Documentation of everything, searchable and available to the community.
And, the changes necessary to work with other hak sets. Q, CTP, the CCC etc.
The additions of current PW extras if they so desire.
The resolution to play nicely with others, to check egos and to work for the community.

A v3 does require a rebuild of PWs, something I know is daunting and time consuming. However CEP2 did this very thing, and the community not only survived but embraced it. V3 could be stunning. V3 could breathe new life in this community.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Agree. Whoever has been lurking in the wings unwilling to deal with the current CEP team should break away and start their own project.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

TheExcimer-500 wrote...

The CEP has not "failed".

Oh yes it did. Who is now willing to use it? Newbie maybe who doesn't know all those issues around it yet. And those were several in past, and they all was trying to get them solved here in these forums - but they didn't get answer from CEP team actually.

I for one was a big enemy of CEP2 at one time, thats not secret, you probably still have me on list and its one reason that you also doesn't care about my project. And interesting is that happened exactly what I was warning in that time, because nobody even wants new update, don't you get it?

Really who use current CEP2 now? Maybe those who were part of the team in past. Others rather stayed with older version and they are not very satisfied with it either. More skilled builders rather excluded CEP and made their own haks (Sinfar case for example). New builders prefer Q from what I've talked with some of them.

Thats the true situation you probably not know about TheExcimer.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par ShaDoOoW, 29 juin 2012 - 06:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               

...Who is now willing to use it?...

...Really who use current CEP2 now? Maybe those who were part of the team in past. Others rather stayed with older version and they are not very satisfied with it either. More skilled builders rather excluded CEP and made their own haks (Sinfar case for example). New builders prefer Q from what I've talked with some of them...

I use CEP 2.4 (and a lot of it), along with much other content I've found on the Vault, plus my own custom content.  After 7+ years working on my PW, I would consider myself a "skilled builder" (or even a "more skilled builder").

I'm not a CEP team member, just a community member.




Regarding "backwards campatibility": 

There was a break between versions 1.x and 2.0 (or 2.1, can't remember what I was told by a current CEP member).  Since that time, there is a different team in place.

CEP 2.4 is backwards compatible with versions back to at least 2.1.  Any player with the latest version can play in any module made with versions the same or earlier than their current installation (back to 2.1).

Because a specific situation has been mentioned before with regards to this (builder(s) with version 2.4 installed working on a module that uses 2.3), here's a couple quick solutions:

A) pull copies of CEP2.3 2da files into the cep2_custom.hak file (or other custom top hak just for building), which will "blind" the toolset to new things added in version 2.4.

install full CEP 2.3 -> rename hak folder to "hak_cep23" -> make new hak folder -> install full CEP 2.4 -> rename the two hak folders as needed for building or playing.



While I would normally just lurk on a thread going this direction, the text quoted above prompted a reply.

I bid you all a good night (or morning, or afternoon, or whatever time it is at your location).
               
               

               

                     Modifié par The Amethyst Dragon, 29 juin 2012 - 07:34 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_TheExcimer-500]

               

"Whoever has been lurking in the wings unwilling to deal with the current CEP team should break away and start their own project. "

You are of course free to do so. However, you do not have my permission to use any material in the CEP as your starting point. Several hundred of the models in CEP were edited by me to fix bugs or improve textures, a hundred or so models/textures were created by me for use in the CEP only. I'm sure the other CEP Team members also feel the same way about all their work as well.

I suggest you start off by downloading the materials you want from their original haks and spend all the time and care as I did. It's a lot of fun and the community thanks you over and over again for it by posters just like yourself. Don't forget to get in touch with those authors to obtain their permission first!

So good luck to you with that.

As for comments from other teams, imagine how you would react if someone else decided to repackage your work without permission. I am grateful for all the authors who gave their permission for their work to be included in the CEP. But what I feel is being stated here by a few is a desire to rip-apart our project and doing so would injure the community.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par TheExcimer-500, 29 juin 2012 - 01:03 .