Author Topic: AME Golden Dragon Award Finalist Announcements  (Read 1985 times)

Legacy_FunkySwerve

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« Reply #15 on: August 25, 2011, 09:30:43 am »


               

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...


Simple reply to the troll post that this actually was.

It has been stated, over and over again, that ANY submission by an AME member EXCLUDES that AME member from beign able to affect the voting in any way.  They are completely excluded from voting on ANY content in that particular category.

You shouldn't ask for input if you don't want any. I wasn't trolling, merely pointing out a serious problem of appearances. There is a very good reason that you don't see self-nominating Academies out there in the real world. If you want to pretend otherwise, go right ahead. But don't call me a troll for giving asked-for input. Small wonder you get so little...

Funky
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Elhanan

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« Reply #16 on: August 25, 2011, 10:19:35 am »


               

FunkySwerve wrote...

You shouldn't ask for input if you don't want any. I wasn't trolling, merely pointing out a serious problem of appearances. There is a very good reason that you don't see self-nominating Academies out there in the real world. If you want to pretend otherwise, go right ahead. But don't call me a troll for giving asked-for input. Small wonder you get so little...

Funky


As I have no dogs in this hunt, it appears that the members cannot submit their own works, or vote on said works; just are allowed to win for said works. This appears to be no different than a member of the film Academy winning on a night they might be presenting or hosting awards which does occur.

Seems fair to me.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Pstemarie

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« Reply #17 on: August 25, 2011, 10:46:08 am »


               

FunkySwerve wrote...

There is a very good reason that you don't see self-nominating Academies out there in the real world. If you want to pretend otherwise, go right ahead.

Funky


Umm, if you are an AME panel member then you cannot nominate yourself for anything. Another member can nominate you, which then precludes you from voting on that category or having any further involvement with it. Its not a self-nominating process - never has been, never will be. Andarian and Tybae have gone to great lengths to ensure the integrity of the AME awards and the panel members.

However, I can see where you're coming from regarding holding up appearances and getting the Community more involved in nominations and voting. But, such an action would make the AME so much like the Vault voting system that it would become a useless endevour. TBH, the Vault voting system is useless. So many people download stuff and never vote, making me wish you could disable voting without disabling comments. If the AME went public, I'm sure it wouldn't be much better - the same lack of community involvement. Really - referring to the Vault now, how hard is it to revisit a page and vote on something you've used?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Elhanan

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« Reply #18 on: August 25, 2011, 01:45:22 pm »


               

Pstemarie wrote...


Umm, if you are an AME panel member then you cannot nominate yourself for anything. Another member can nominate you, which then precludes you from voting on that category or having any further involvement with it. Its not a self-nominating process - never has been, never will be. Andarian and Tybae have gone to great lengths to ensure the integrity of the AME awards and the panel members.

However, I can see where you're coming from regarding holding up appearances and getting the Community more involved in nominations and voting. But, such an action would make the AME so much like the Vault voting system that it would become a useless endevour. TBH, the Vault voting system is useless. So many people download stuff and never vote, making me wish you could disable voting without disabling comments. If the AME went public, I'm sure it wouldn't be much better - the same lack of community involvement. Really - referring to the Vault now, how hard is it to revisit a page and vote on something you've used?


Actually, to cast an informed Vote in the Vault can be somewhat problematic, at least for myself.

For Haks, and those things that are tech related, I am admittedly clueless on many occasions as to the exact details and scope of said funtions. These are often left without votes, though I do try and provide feedback when it is possible.

For mods it becomes somwhat easier, as I can offer both an objective eye to flaws noticed in the game (eg; typos, mis marked maps, etc), and subjective opinions on the game design itself. One issue that occured for me is that at one time when an offering of 8 was offered as general praise became less praiseworthy fairly suddenly, and I had to make needed adj in past and current Votes. And again, I tried to offer comments as possible.

However, I view this evolving, sliding method of casting opinions to be flawed, and open to abuse (eg; say hello metacritic). So I prefer to scan votes for known Voters;  DM's, Players, and associates that have earned respect and credibility fir their comments, and gather recommendations from that field when available.

Sorry; rambling. Blame it on my meds.... 'Posted
               
               

               
            

Legacy_AndarianTD

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« Reply #19 on: August 25, 2011, 01:46:22 pm »


               

Elhanan wrote...

FunkySwerve wrote...

There is a very good reason that you don't see self-nominating Academies out there in the real world.


As I have no dogs in this hunt, it appears that the members cannot submit their own works, or vote on said works; just are allowed to win for said works. This appears to be no different than a member of the film Academy winning on a night they might be presenting or hosting awards which does occur.

Seems fair to me.


Thank you. Yes, that's exactly right. The AME was partly inspired by the Academy for Motion Pictures, and the GDAs originally conceived as a kind of "Oscars" for the NWN modding community.

I'm a bit surprised at the number of people posting here on the assumption that groups like the Motion Picture Academy don't allow for the nomination of members. I'd like to ask anyone who thinks that to post a reference to such a policy. I don't think you'll find one (I haven't, and I've looked), because it would make no sense -- for precisely the reasons that several of us have already tried to explain. It would be unfair (see Bannor's comments), it would compromise the awards themselves (see my previous comments), and it would make the AME unworkable and undermine its mission, as Pstemarie observed:

Pstemarie wrote...

I can see where you're coming from regarding holding up appearances and getting the Community more involved in nominations and voting. But, such an action would make the AME so much like the Vault voting system that it would become a useless endevour.


I'm not sure what else to say on this, other than that individuals in the community are welcome to their opinions about the value of our awards -- just as they are welcome to their opinions of Vault voting, the MOTYs, and the Reviewer's Guild. The purpose of all of these is to provide the community with a variety of different kinds of assessments based on different standards and procedures. By my way of thinking, that's a good thing.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 25 août 2011 - 12:47 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Elhanan

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« Reply #20 on: August 25, 2011, 02:00:08 pm »


               heh! I like to think of myself as sort of a a non-membered Leonard Maltin, and simply try to help folks select enjoyable mods.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_FunkySwerve

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« Reply #21 on: August 25, 2011, 05:48:37 pm »


               

Pstemarie wrote...

However, I can see where you're coming from regarding holding up appearances and getting the Community more involved in nominations and voting. But, such an action would make the AME so much like the Vault voting system that it would become a useless endevour. TBH, the Vault voting system is useless. So many people download stuff and never vote, making me wish you could disable voting without disabling comments. If the AME went public, I'm sure it wouldn't be much better - the same lack of community involvement. Really - referring to the Vault now, how hard is it to revisit a page and vote on something you've used?

I tend to agree that the Vault system is severely flawed - that's why I sent Max my suggestions. I would take a look at them and consider them at length, as they solve the more serious issues. Max rejected them because he didn't have power to change them - they're an IGN standard, applying to multiple sites.

The problem that you're describing, that of nonvoting, is sort of a non-issue. It simply describes the point at which content will get voted on, which doesn't bias results one way or another - those who care enough, vote, and those who don't, don't. The incentives line up to create a rough picture of what the community values most. My issues with it revolve more around ranking of that data, not selection bias of any kind.

AndarianTD wrote...

Thank you. Yes, that's exactly right. The AME was partly inspired by the Academy for Motion Pictures, and the GDAs originally conceived as a kind of "Oscars" for the NWN modding community.

I'm a bit surprised at the number of people posting here on the assumption that groups like the Motion Picture Academy don't allow for the nomination of members. I'd like to ask anyone who thinks that to post a reference to such a policy. I don't think you'll find one (I haven't, and I've looked), because it would make no sense -- for precisely the reasons that several of us have already tried to explain. It would be unfair (see Bannor's comments), it would compromise the awards themselves (see my previous comments), and it would make the AME unworkable and undermine its mission, as Pstemarie observed:


Since you're still surprised, I'll explain more thoroughly. The analogy to the Acadamey is severely flawed. First of all, the Academy does not release their member list, though my understanding is that until recently they listed invitees.  Second, Elhanan's comparison to an acadamey member winning when hosting misses the point - it's influence in voting that matters, and the host doesn't have any more voting power than anyone else. Third, and most relevantly, the Academy has 6,000 members, who send in ballots. Any self-dealing is necessarily highly diluted by volume, and would be comparable not to a small group like the AME meeting to discuss nominees, but to voting for your own work on the Vault. By contrast, in a small group, there's a good chance that the members' relationships to one of the group will sway their thinking, whether or not that member actually participates in voting. There's also the risk of upsetting that member if content they feel is inferior is picked over their own. There is no mass of votes to dilute the self-dealing, there's only a small group, with incentive to keep its members happy. There is simply no way around that, in your current setup, as you've described it.

In any event, thank you both for listening and responding, instead of doing the kneejerk 'OMG it's not praise he musts be trollzor!!111.' I make an effort to avoid antagonizing the members of our shriking community when possible, but I have great difficulty in taking the AME's awards serioiusly given the issues I've raised.

Funky
               
               

               


                     Modifié par FunkySwerve, 25 août 2011 - 04:50 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_AndarianTD

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« Reply #22 on: August 25, 2011, 07:11:02 pm »


               

FunkySwerve wrote...

By contrast, in a small group, there's a good chance that the members' relationships to one of the group will sway their thinking, whether or not that member actually participates in voting. There's also the risk of upsetting that member if content they feel is inferior is picked over their own.


It's interesting that you'd assume that such dynamics would necessarily dominate a group such as the AME, when in all my years of experience with it what I've overwhelmingly observed is precisely the opposite. One of our "axioms" of proper behavior in the Academy is that members should respect the differing votes, choices, and opinions of other members. Members who sulk and complain about not getting their way (and we have had a few) do not last long with us, because they aren't allowed any traction for such behavior. We discuss and debate, and sometimes convince each other; but it is an extremely important part of AME culture that in the end, if we disagree, we agree to disagree as respectful colleagues.

And in that spirit, I do appreciate the candor of your feedback. '<img'>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #23 on: August 25, 2011, 08:48:27 pm »


               

AndarianTD wrote...
One of our "axioms" of proper behavior in the Academy is that members should respect the differing votes, choices, and opinions of other members.

Members who sulk and complain about not getting their way (and we have had a few) do not last long with us, because they aren't allowed any traction for such behavior.


Careful how you phrase things.  Those two consecutive statements could easily be read as disproving each other.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Pstemarie

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« Reply #24 on: August 25, 2011, 09:08:58 pm »


               

AndarianTD wrote...

I'm not sure what else to say on this, other than that individuals in the community are welcome to their opinions about the value of our awards -- just as they are welcome to their opinions of Vault voting, the MOTYs, and the Reviewer's Guild. The purpose of all of these is to provide the community with a variety of different kinds of assessments based on different standards and procedures. By my way of thinking, that's a good thing.


I was strictly talking about the Vault system. I think the AME works great as is and doesn't need to change. However, having once held similar views to Funky, I can see where they come from.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Tybae

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« Reply #25 on: August 26, 2011, 08:55:28 am »


               If I thought for one second that the AME voting and nominating systems were biased in any way shape or form, I'd leave the AME then and there.  You are free to think and feel however you wish.  I know how the AME works and I know what goes on there.  Unless you are, or have been, a member, you don't.  Either way, I'm tired of having the same arguments with the same people over and over again.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Failed.Bard

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« Reply #26 on: August 26, 2011, 09:39:14 am »


               

Tybae wrote...

You are free to think and feel however you wish. I know how the AME works and I know what goes on there. Unless you are, or have been, a member, you don't.


I believe it's this part that's the source of the problem, perception wise.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Pstemarie

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« Reply #27 on: August 26, 2011, 10:53:48 am »


               

Tybae wrote...

If I thought for one second that the AME voting and nominating systems were biased in any way shape or form, I'd leave the AME then and there. You are free to think and feel however you wish. I know how the AME works and I know what goes on there. Unless you are, or have been, a member, you don't. Either way, I'm tired of having the same arguments with the same people over and over again.


Well said.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_AndarianTD

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« Reply #28 on: August 26, 2011, 01:11:36 pm »


               

Failed.Bard wrote...

Tybae wrote...

You are free to think and feel however you wish. I know how the AME works and I know what goes on there. Unless you are, or have been, a member, you don't.


I believe it's this part that's the source of the problem, perception wise.


Then why not join? As I wrote before, it's not as though we haven't been posting calls for volunteers on the forums for as far back as I can remember. We've even restructured the AME's organization and procedures so that it's more friendly to casual membership from individuals with limited time or a more specific focus among the awards.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 26 août 2011 - 12:11 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Arkalezth

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« Reply #29 on: August 26, 2011, 03:51:36 pm »


               I joined the AME two months ago. I have a question for those who have a bad perception of it from outside: take a look at the past awards (finalists, winners...). Do you think any of them don't deserve it? Of course, you may have a personal different favorite, but I don't think you'll find a bad module or author among them.

And if Funky or anyone else wants to create some sort of "public academy", by all means, go ahead, no one will stop you. I'll probably even vote.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Arkalezth, 26 août 2011 - 02:58 .