AME Golden Dragon Award Finalist Announcements

[Legacy_Tybae]

               

WebShaman wrote...
What is being stated is that under the current system, the impression that something could happen, is important, because the checks and balances do not correspond.  And often, this impression is one that outsiders hold (which pretty much totally derails what Bannor posted) to be true.

There ARE checks and balances in place.  The checks and balances exist past the public eye.  Just because you can't see them, doesn't mean they aren't there. Not only are they there, but there is more than 1 person enforcing such rules.  This is because we don't want any 1 person wielding the stick, so to speak.  We aren't going to make everything public just because of the views of a few people.  To be blunt, that's not going to happen.  That will be a problem for some people, but any organization is going to have to deal with doubters.  That is a fact of life and is no different in NWN than it is in real life.  CEP, CTP, PQ, etc. all have their doubters, trollers, etc. but changing their ways because of the views of a few is not only not realistic, it sets a very bad precedent.  If you change for a few, then where do you draw the line next time? 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               Heh...

Checks and balances don't correspond?  Why not?  How?  They are in place to specifically address any possible loading of votes.  Is the system perfect?  No such perfection exists anywhere.

As an example of the responses here, I will make this statement:

I "perceive" that you have Pink Elephants on your underpants.  Because of that, and association with anyone from the Higher Ground pw, I will assume that all of you are pinkos.

What?  No facts to back it up?  So what... I perceive it that way.  

Now, just how ridiculous does that sound?  Pretty darn bad I think.  (And not necessarily what I believe, just a statement of possibilities)

The entire rest of the arguments from that side of the fence are based on facts not in evidence, and any perception otherwise is ludicrous.

The issue has been fully addressed by the AME from it's initial conception.  Anyone that bothered to actually follow them over the years would have seen that evidence many times.

The AME is a group of PEERS, meaning folks that create custom content for/from NWN and have also already gained recognition of their efforts by the community at large prior to joining the AME.  At least that was how it started, the AME lowered some of the requirements for membership to allow folks that do NOT create CC to help judge things, but those folks have still proven their worth in other ways.

The AME was distinctly setup to prevent voting by the general public at large and was setup in such a way as to alleviate any possible conflicts of interest voting.  Those facts are there for anyone that cares about it.  Stating that your opinion doesn't agree with that, is Superficially plausible, but actually wrong: "a specious argument"  

Wait, I perceive that you are changing your underpants to Green Dinosaurs now... but I still believe you to be a pinko.  Ridiculous.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tybae]

               

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...


The AME is a group of PEERS, meaning folks that create custom content for/from NWN and have also already gained recognition of their efforts by the community at large prior to joining the AME.  At least that was how it started, the AME lowered some of the requirements for membership to allow folks that do NOT create CC to help judge things, but those folks have still proven their worth in other ways.

For the record, I was one of the first accepted to the AME who was not a builder or a CC creator.  I still am not a builder or CC creator mostly because I don't have the time.  
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Arkalezth]

               Same here, I'm just a player.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

The AME is a group of PEERS, meaning folks that create custom content for/from NWN and have also already gained recognition of their efforts by the community at large prior to joining the AME.  At least that was how it started, the AME lowered some of the requirements for membership to allow folks that do NOT create CC to help judge things, but those folks have still proven their worth in other ways.

Just for the record, the AME was always intended to be organized around the idea of having a combination of builders, reviewers, and players in its membership. We were a bit heavier on builders and reviewers in our first cycle (the one Bannor was involved in) because AME grew out of the Reviewer's Guild and most of the early volunteers who stuck with it during the first year came from those communities. That's shifted over the years as we recruited more active and serious players -- folks like Tybae, Laisee, and Arkalezth, just to name a few -- to help fill out our membership. AME needs all three types of members, because it needs all three perspectives on modding to do justice to evaluating works for the GDAs.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 02 septembre 2011 - 09:14 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Dallo]

               

NWVaultQSW wrote...

You should never tell QSW she is right, it is hard enough to keep the old bag under control as it is Dallo, without having to suffer her dragonish smug grins and blowing of talons
Dallo, it is always the greatest of pleasure to see you around and your thoughts on any given subject, whether for or against, have the ability to ground me and bring a great big smile to my face. '>

*bows deeply*

My sword is yours, Silver One!!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_FunkySwerve]

               

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

Heh...

Checks and balances don't correspond?  Why not?  How?  They are in place to specifically address any possible loading of votes.  Is the system perfect?  No such perfection exists anywhere.

As an example of the responses here, I will make this statement:

I "perceive" that you have Pink Elephants on your underpants.  Because of that, and association with anyone from the Higher Ground pw, I will assume that all of you are pinkos.

What?  No facts to back it up?  So what... I perceive it that way.  

Now, just how ridiculous does that sound?  Pretty darn bad I think.  (And not necessarily what I believe, just a statement of possibilities)

Your counterexample above is inane. You're not basing anything on proven theory, just stringing together a bunch of made-up and unrelated facts. More technically put, you aren't advancing a sound argument with true premises, while the person you're criticizing (me) was. This is not simply a matter of perception, it's a case of extremely poor rule-making, but I can see that you're dead-set against any attempt to understand the problem.

As for Web, he isn't from HG, and has no affiliation with it. He simply possesses the capacity to reason - a rarity in this thread, it would seem. '>

The entire rest of the arguments from that side of the fence are based on facts not in evidence, and any perception otherwise is ludicrous.

Actually, no, they're entirely based on facts in evidence - what you yourself have said about your nomination process - specifically that you consider your own members for awards. Or are you now denying that?

The issue has been fully addressed by the AME from it's initial conception.  Anyone that bothered to actually follow them over the years would have seen that evidence many times.

Really? Where is all this copious evidence? Why haven't you produced it instead of blanket denials? You can't, of course, because, as I've already pointed out, this is not a thing that would leave behind physical evidence one way or another save in cases of extreme stuidity (though I'm less inclined to rule that possibility out than out the outset).

The AME is a group of PEERS, meaning folks that create custom content for/from NWN and have also already gained recognition of their efforts by the community at large prior to joining the AME.  At least that was how it started, the AME lowered some of the requirements for membership to allow folks that do NOT create CC to help judge things, but those folks have still proven their worth in other ways.

Ah, I now understand your group's reticence in talking about the way it perceives itself. In fact, it's members do NOT have to be custom content creators of any stripe - meaning you don't really differ from the Vault's voting makeup in your membership requirements, only in your process. A process which has provided demonstrably skewed results thus far, completely omitting NWNX authors for some inexplicable reason. You don't require any actual expertise...I can see where that runs into an image problem for a group professing to offer a more expert opinion, though I can understand the need to lower the bar so as to garner more participation.

The AME was distinctly setup to prevent voting by the general public at large and was setup in such a way as to alleviate any possible conflicts of interest voting.  Those facts are there for anyone that cares about it.  Stating that your opinion doesn't agree with that, is Superficially plausible, but actually wrong: "a specious argument"  

Simply saying it doesn't make it true. Your setup has a glaring conflict of interest, as has been pointed out ad nauseam.

Wait, I perceive that you are changing your underpants to Green Dinosaurs now... but I still believe you to be a pinko.  Ridiculous.

 This isn't a critique based on perception, but on sound theory. I can see you have no interest in addressing the problems with your voting/nomination system, but I will continue to correct you so long as you persist in mischaracterizing my critique, which is, as Web noted, on solid ground. If I were you I would just drop it - it's making you look rediculous.

Funky
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               I somehow doubt that Bannor cares how he looks on the internet, Funky.  Especially in light of many of the discussions that we have all had before, on various topics.

I mean, he slammed into Bioware recently, if you remember, which got Chris pretty upset.

I don't think he particularly cares how he comes across.  I think he gets passionate and posts, damn the torpedoes and all that.

At least, that is how it looks to me.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Estelindis]

               

FunkySwerve wrote...

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...
The AME is a group of PEERS, meaning folks that create custom content for/from NWN and have also already gained recognition of their efforts by the community at large prior to joining the AME.  At least that was how it started, the AME lowered some of the requirements for membership to allow folks that do NOT create CC to help judge things, but those folks have still proven their worth in other ways.

Ah, I now understand your group's reticence in talking about the way it perceives itself. In fact, it's members do NOT have to be custom content creators of any stripe - meaning you don't really differ from the Vault's voting makeup in your membership requirements, only in your process. A process which has provided demonstrably skewed results thus far, completely omitting NWNX authors for some inexplicable reason. You don't require any actual expertise...I can see where that runs into an image problem for a group professing to offer a more expert opinion, though I can understand the need to lower the bar so as to garner more participation.

If I may raise a point: there are many categories of Golden Dragon Awards, of which custom content actually represents a minority.  As such, there's no reason why only custom content makers should be AME members.  To get a proper balance of expertise, the judging group should consist of players, builders, scripters, and CC makers.  As it happens, it does have people with lots of experience in these areas.  This represents a significant difference with the Vault, since, although anyone (including experts in their fields) certainly can vote there, there's no NWN knowledge requirement for voting.

A further discinction that I would like to draw between the GDAs and Vault scoring is that, in general, most people do not vote for a Vault entry by comparing it to anything else.  The general tendency is to give an entry a ten if it is any good in itself, regardless of whether it's better or worse than something else from the same category of content that has also received a ten.  By contrast, there are a finite number of GDAs that can only be given to so many modules / CC packages / what-have-you.  Accordingly, they must be compared with each other.  This helps to achieve a result that AME members intend to showcase as a cream of the crop.  Of course, it's subjective (that's inevitable), but every attempt at objectivity (in the best sense of the word) is made and judgements are based on criteria can be understood by anyone.

I don't ask anyone to agree with me, as everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but these factors just mentioned make it clear to me, at least, that there's  worth in what the AME attempts to do.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

I don't ask anyone to agree with me, as everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but these factors just mentioned make it clear to me, at least, that there's  worth in what the AME attempts to do.

Sure, and I certainly agree here.  In fact, I don't think anyone is actually disagreeing with this.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Estelindis]

               

WebShaman wrote...
I don't think anyone is actually disagreeing with this.

Really?  Well, good.  Differing opinions are welcome, but that doesn't mean it isn't nice when people agree.  '>
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               In direct response to Funky's allegations:

1) Andarian was nominated for Debut Author of 2006, made the finals, and lost the award to Fester Pot. <<proof that AME CoI works very well.  Counter proof of Funky's baseless allegations.

2) Ragnarok_mr4 was nominated for Best CC for his Alternate Combat Animations, made the finals, and won the award.  Does anyone think that he should have NOT won that award?  He did not nominate himself by the way.

3) Six voted COI (conflict of interest, or a non-vote) for Best Tileset of 2007 due to having done some work fixing up ValynDyral's Arcadia City Tileset. It made the finals but did not win the award.

4) CTP was nominated for ComCon in 2008. It did not make the finals, but it took out three AME members (Este, Tybae, and Hellfire) from further participating in the nominations phase for the entire category.  <<-- Proof that the CoI rules are in place, and likely but not necessarily proof against Funky's baseless allegations.

5) Tybae was knocked out of Best Tileset and Community Contribution last year for his participation as a CTP tester, due to CTP's nomination in both categories. CTP did not make the finals in ComCon, but Babylon did make the finals in Best Tileset. Neither won the award.  <<-- Proof against an AME member winning when they should not.

6) Estelindis' KOTOR Heads was nominated for Best CC last year, made the finalis, and lost to Ben Harrison's Wizard Arcana Placeables. Este wasn't an active member at the time, but she was well known to all of us and still had voting access to the boards through the entire time when she was a nominee.  <<-- Again, proof that AME membership doesn't guarantee winning anything. In other words, Proof AGAINST Funky's allegations.

7) Andarian has been nominated and made the finals for Veteran Author of 2010. The winner is yet to be determined.  He can NOT participate in any of the voting in the Veteran Author award category due to CoI rules implemented by the AME so his vote is "lost" even if it would have been for someone else.

Now Funky,  provide proof that the AME has done anything wrong here?  You can't, because it does not happen, and because in the few instances where it MIGHT, POTENTIALLY happen, there are Conflict of Interest rules in place to prevent your allegations from taking place.  Provide proof dude, Put up or SHUT UP!

You have yet to provide any POSSIBLE solution other than removing an AME member from consideration, which has been explained to you that the AME feels that would be unfair for anyone to be excluded.

Now, as to your repeated comments regarding the NWNX team... So far, NO PW MEMBER has ever joined the AME despite repeated requests for PW members to join up.  NO AWARDS have been given for tools for PW's, since the AME has no PW folks involved.  No way to compare things, nothing to judge them against... Not the fault of the AME, since they have repeatedly asked for PW folks to join.  Sorry you feel you have been personally slighted, so obviously, you are JEALOUS that folks have won awards but have nothing to contribute to the community other than flames?

CTP has been nominated at least twice for various things, we never won.  Despite me personally, being a prior member of the AME, CTP lost.  

As one who has been convinced by this entire thread to rejoin a team of folks that are giving their own time to help the community. I have to publicly state that I have rejoined the AME to help them do their work.  My time is limited like many folks out there, but I can give of that time as much as I wish.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Bannor Bloodfist, 11 septembre 2011 - 05:43 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               NWNX can also be used for SP games...

I personally asked for this, and Virusman got it done.

As for the issue you raise with jealousy..huh?  I mean...HUH??!!  You have not only gone out on a limb, but left it and you are now approaching the limits of known space...

Are you even rational?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               I've already commented on the AME's COI history, for example here. The rest of it was summarized in Bannor's last post, from information we compiled this morning. I hope that information is helpful to anyone genuinely and respectfully curious about the AME and its activities.

Also and for the record, I completely agree with Este's recent post, which I think summed up the facts about AME membership quite accurately.

I would like to add one additional point regarding Funky's comments about NWNX, though. As I understand it, NWNX is a server-side tool designed for online play, primarily for PWs. Although we do have a category for multiplayer modules, the AME primarily covers work in NWN's single-player community. Partly that has to do with the focus of our awards, and the design differences between SP mods, MP mods, and PWs. But mostly it's because in practice, we have had almost no support from NWN's Multiplayer and PW communities, despite repeated efforts to reach out to and solicit members from those communities in the past. As a consequence, even the AME's one MP category has now gone unawarded for several years in a row.

To take myself as an example: as a strictly SP author who doesn't play MP at all, I didn't even become aware of the existence of NWNX until earlier this year. From what I can see it looks like a fantastic contribution to the PW community. But as someone who builds and plays work for the SP community only, I have never had occasion or reason to learn about or to use it. That it has not been recognized is not surprising to me, given our lack of members from the MP and PW communities with the requisite focus and experience to nominate and champion it.

So yes, Community Contributions with an MP / PW focus may well have ended up being overlooked by the AME in the past. And yes, if anyone wants to "criticize" our awards for having a mainly SP-centric focus, I think that's a legitimate observation. But not to put too fine a point on it, that's less by our choice than it is by the choice of the members of NWN's MP player and builder communities. Anyone who would like to see that change can help out by signing up, but armchair quarterbacking or criticizing from the sidelines is neither fair nor helpful.

The AME has always wanted to expand its coverage of the NWN and NWN2 multiplayer communities, and we've had a number of long discussions about what we could do to help bring that about. Former Chairmen have repeatedly reached out to the MP community, and I'll be happy to reiterate that call here. But in the end, we can't conscript anyone to help us make that happen. Most of our volunteers historically have come from the SP community, and only the community's MP and PW players and builders can help us change that.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 11 septembre 2011 - 11:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_ffbj]

               I can vouch for the PW part as I was once a considering joining the AME, as someone who has had some xp with PW's. They were gracious to me, but after I read through all the work required I simply bowed out, and with no reticence from the AME.  In fact they were very understanding concerning my trepidation.  I am basically lazy and being an AME member looked to me like a heck of a lot of work.
Anyway to reiterate.  I think they are great and do a wonderful job, with no remuneration for their efforts.