Community Patch discussion and development thread

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               I think if you install tonyk, it will be active and win over cpp. The question is: how much of cpp gets lost this way? Tonyk doesn't modify that many scripts, so it is possible that the majority of fixes still works. Also it is possible that tonyk contains numerous fixes as well.


But looking at the extensive AI fixes in cpp i decided that tonyk might not be needed any more. Tonyk claims to add new features to enemy ai (and it does). Looking at the fixes in cpp i can see that many features from enemies in vanilla without tonyk previously just didn't work because they were broken. So in a way cpp enables "new" ai features as well, or makes them available for the first time to enemies.


Cpps approach sounds much more conservative, meaning it doesnt contain all the aggressive adjustments tonyk has,which would sometimes break mods (most notoriously wandering monsters, which was disableable).


For all this i decided to give a pure cpp playthrough a chance, and see if i do miss anything from tonyk and if i see any new behaviour thanks to cpp.


So far i can report, that the enemies seem to react quite well, though SoU is a bit lowlevel to really tell yet how the enemies behave once they get a few more abilities and spells. Dorna as a henchwoman does her job well aside from an ai bug in SoU. Her spell selection is a bit short on buffs at cleric lvl 4, which im sure was biowares decision.


So far it looks like cpp does provide a good ai with enemies not doing any stupid things. I'm curious to see how it holds up in HotU. I do have to say that i miss being able to micromanage my henchmen. But that is only a problem in the vanilla campaigns.


Edit: i just gave the tonyk readme a look again. Aside from the many conversation options for the henchmen, it seems most other aspects (weapon switching, barbarian rage, not wasting spells the target is immune against, sneaking) are handeled by cpp now, too. So i think unless you want the henchmen convo options or wandering monsters, tonyk is no longer a must have.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Edit: i just gave the tonyk readme a look again. Aside from the many conversation options for the henchmen, it seems most other aspects (weapon switching, barbarian rage, not wasting spells the target is immune against, sneaking) are handeled by cpp now, too. So i think unless you want the henchmen convo options or wandering monsters, tonyk is no longer a must have.

I just read it too and it seems there are few crucial features that CPP doesn't have. Some sounds very good and I will check the source code for this to see how Tony did it. Specifically the saving spells when fighting too weak creatures/bards going into melee when in close combat. (Extra curious about the code because I see there potential issues in certain situations that I encountered on high magic worlds such as easy monsters being overboosted etc. - seems to me that TonyK AI is designed especially for the OCs)

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

I just read it too and it seems there are few crucial features that CPP doesn't have. Some sounds very good and I will check the source code for this to see how Tony did it. Specifically the saving spells when fighting too weak creatures/bards going into melee when in close combat. (Extra curious about the code because I see there potential issues in certain situations that I encountered on high magic worlds such as easy monsters being overboosted etc. - seems to me that TonyK AI is designed especially for the OCs)

Just checked Tony K AI script sources.

 

Its impossible to compare it with 1.71 scripts because original author chosed different route to implement his changes. He went to the road of recreating the AI routines from scratch, while I only modified/improved upon Bioware's core scripts in CPP. So far when looking to the scripts I can't understand it because every action is divided into several subfunctions and in order to understand the AI one has to learn each of those functions and how they are called. That quite difficult and time consuming and I would say its also redundant as if I would want to make TonyK work with CPP I would rather used CPP as a base and adding TonyK extra features into Bioware/CPP scripts instead.

 

Some of the TonyK features I found interesting:

6) Thieves should no longer try to disarm traps that are behind closed
   doors.

- Never heard about this issue, can someone verify its a still problem in 1.71?

11)Sharwyn (NWN Official Campaign) will now sing the appropriate
   number of Bard songs for her level per day.

I read later that she is supposed to sing only once per rest. Can someone verify if the problem still exists in 1.71 and if so, where (because I dont think its broken in HotU...)?

14)Taunt is now enabled for associates or NPCs who have the skill.
   They will attempt to Taunt 10% when the target is not too easy.
   Enemies will also attempt to Taunt the PC and associates. It
   might be time to get some concentration skill.

CPP is missing this feature for sure.

16)Tony K's caster AI is provided in the default install. It has checks
   for area of effect and immunities of target. It also includes
   improved code for healing, curing conditions, and turn undead. It
   also allows the use of non equippable spellcasting items.

Can someone verify that henchmans/monsters in 1.71 doesnt use non-equippable spell filled items such as scrolls/wands/rods/musical instruments (provided they are able to)?

 

 

As for installation of CPP/TonyK to work together. There might be a way. Untested but looking at the source and files modified its possible that you can get both to work in a certain way: After installing TonyK AI, try to delete all scripts nw_c2_default*.nss and nw_ch_ac*.nss. Keep all others. If im reading it correctly, the henchman conversation features will still work (at least those that are instant - it wont work on the new continual options). Or alternatively delete only the nw_c2_default - that way all the henchman features will work however enemies will use vanilla AI with improvements from CPP.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bogdanov89]

               

It would be very amazing if the CCP could also have additional AI improvements that the TonyK AI has!

 

ShadoOoW, is there any possibility for you to implement into the CCP all these fancy AI improvements that TonyK made so long ago?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               

as we wrote, it looks like most of the TonyK features are available in CPP already. the only noteworthy features missing are the ones outlined by Shadooow. So it boild down to: Taunt usage of enemies (confirmed as not present in CPP), 2 bugs that have gone unnoticed (and it's not even clear whether they do still exist) and scroll/staff/bard instrument usage (also unreported/verified as a bug)

 

Shadooow will most likelly look into these, and if you want to help, as i do, get yourself CPP, uninstall TonyK (it can easily be reinstalled at any time) and try to verify or disprove the 3 open questions.

 

so anyway. taunt, scroll, instruments; do enemies and henchmen use them? if so, i see little reason for TonyK. i personally never liked the wandering monsters, and the improved AI often sticked to a "best tactic" approach, making it predictable at times. "Oh, see that high level mage? i bet he'll start with time stop followed by haste, bigbies and then IGMS spam.... oh there we go, he did"

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

It would be very amazing if the CCP could also have additional AI improvements that the TonyK AI has!

 

ShadoOoW, is there any possibility for you to implement into the CCP all these fancy AI improvements that TonyK made so long ago?

What Gruftlord said. Most of the TonyK features are troublesome - I cannot definitely support inventory modification for OC/SoU henchmans because the module wasnt designed for this and when moving between chapters, henchman inventory is reseted. Etc.

 

I can definitely copy/port/add the generic TonyK AI features such as taunt usage (working on it now).

 

Please try my suggestion about a custom TonyK installation - try delete both nw_ch_* and nw_c2_default* set of scripts and check which henchman features works and which does not. If you find out that majority of the henchman features isnt working try return the nw_ch_* set of scripts and then tell us results so we can suggest this kind of custom TonyK installation to anyone who wants vanilla AI with CPP fixes but henchman features from Tony.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               

henchmen features are actually only needed for OC, and a bit SoU, and maybe MAYBE some very old modules.

SoU did introduce inventory management and some convo options are in fact available (handle locks, buff. missing compared to tonyk: handle traps and weapon preference)

most modern modules have such features.

so really i wouldn't worry too much about TonyK mixed/custom installs. get tonyk if you want henchmen customization in the OC. everything else, we should try to get the CPP updated.

 

the thing that might be a bit more tricky is inventory item usage. i consulted the great wisdom of google, but got mixed results.

it seems that some people got Deeking and nathyra in HotU to use scrolls, and maybe even wands. the results have been mixed. it may be that only certain AI packages use it, or only certain classes (one person suggested, that nathyra leveling as assassin might not use scrolls, while she leveling as wizard might). that may be unfortunate, mainly because it would be tricky to trouble shoot or get reliable results. my current henchmen of preference in SoU is Dorna, and i managed to get her AI to disable traps again (which she does in SoU, you can only not enable/disable that feature as with Tonyk). i'll give her some scrolls ans wands and what not, but a negative result does not have to mean anything, if the AI is only made tu use those as either wizard or Sorcerer.

 

Shadooow, do you have any knowledge about which henchmen/classes i could expect to use inventory items? all (as long as they can use them)? only some that are classified as casters? what about bard and instruments? what about rogues and... everything with UMD?

basically: which henchmen do you suggest makes the most sense as a first test? xanos? or would you say it shouldn't matter?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Shadooow, do you have any knowledge about which henchmen/classes i could expect to use inventory items? all (as long as they can use them)? only some that are classified as casters? what about bard and instruments? what about rogues and... everything with UMD?

basically: which henchmen do you suggest makes the most sense as a first test? xanos? or would you say it shouldn't matter?

Any classes, but noncasters have a very low chance to do that unless higher level. The chance might be a bit higher for a rogue though, not sure exactly.

 

Another factor is if they actually *can* use it. If you can open henchman inventory, then everything thats red for him is out of the question of course.

 

I wouldnt use Xanos because if he use rage he is not expected to do any magic stuff at all - and he will be always starting combat with rage. Imo Tomi/Sharwyn in OC, Dorna in SoU or anyone else with UMD/caster class in HotU. Those are henchmans that should be able to use a scrolls or musical instruments.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               

ok, thanks. though i think the OC is out, because it doesn't provide inventory control anyway, right? or does it with HotU installed?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

ok, thanks. though i think the OC is out, because it doesn't provide inventory control anyway, right? or does it with HotU installed?

right, it doesnt, it can be manually toggled by a variable though I think but for our test it doesnt really matter, this can be tested in SoU with Dorna

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               

excellent. i'll continue my playthough with a massivelly crammed Dorna inventory and will let you know what i can find. my dorna is a 50/50 split with rogue and cleric, if that matters. but if you say this only influences the chances of her using any item, we only need to verify her using a scroll once and maybe a wand and instrument. it might be nice to see her use an equipped item with charges as well. luckily the interlude does provide some.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

excellent. i'll continue my playthough with a massivelly crammed Dorna inventory and will let you know what i can find. my dorna is a 50/50 split with rogue and cleric, if that matters. but if you say this only influences the chances of her using any item, we only need to verify her using a scroll once and maybe a wand and instrument. it might be nice to see her use an equipped item with charges as well. luckily the interlude does provide some.

she also should have higher chance to do that when out of spells btw, as for equippable items with spells, try spawning them from console (you can get resref from toolset or maybe there is some list somewhere, i think I saw it)

 

got the taunt feature ported and its working, a minor problem is that taun effect is not possible to identify so in case you are attacked by multiple attackers they might spam it - yet there is only 10% chance and very specific conditions so it shouldnt be an issue

 

Will probably release it as an override once Im finished. (Unless you persuade me to start a "1.72 development" hehe)

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               

... since you asked:

 

i think you got the main part of NWN bugs covered now with 1.71, and also added some nice switches for builders.

what remains now will be smaller issues that crop up every now and then (and probalbly will never end :-D).

 

i would think the best way to handle those is indeed a shorter and smaller release cycle. so lets say: collect issues and fixes for a few months, release a beta for a few weeks and get the next version out. there will probably be no need for longer and more massive changes such as happened between 1.69 and where we are now.

 

there would of course be several possible option for these shorter release cycles (well two i can think of):

 

override updates as separate beta tests, than get collected into a new release every 3-6 months

 

or "true" beta releases, that collect a few fixes, that are then tested by a hand full of voluntiers for a few weeks, before the full release of the next patch.

 

(or a mixture of both: release small separate fix files for override, get positive feedback, release new beta package, get feedback that the package works, release)

 

and yes, of course i would have denied dorna her well deserved sleep for testing purposes. i'll do so soon. *eg*

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

what remains now will be smaller issues that crop up every now and then (and probalbly will never end :-D).

yea, got almost like twenty tile fixes again '> this kind of content is however not problematic, fits into patch hak nicely

 

scripts are however different case, the new AI fixes and improvements that im going to do would have to be published as an override + erf for module builders. It musn't be in (patch)hak.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bogdanov89]

               

I am very happy to hear that you will be further improving the AI of the CPP '>

 

I love the ability of TonyK to tell your companions to unlock chests/traps or pre-cast buff spells... all those advanced controls made companions so much better.

 

Thank you very much fellas!