Interesting discovery about PWK's

[Legacy_OldTimeRadio]

               @Bannor -

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

Interesting, I was under the distinct impression that you could not assign a wok to a placeable.

So, you are stating that your placeable's wok overwrites the the original tile's wok?

I don't have enough empirical evidence to state much beyond what the video shows.  It's a positive sign that the new WOK's information shows up with the renderaabb 1 console command but I strongly doubt it would universally replace all tile WOKs it is dropped onto.  I'm looking at using it for a no-tile implementation of the airship dock I spoke about some months ago, so mainly I'm exploring implementation on bare, ground-level surfaces.  Again, needs more testing.   

How are you attaching this wok to the placeable?

Modelbase set as Tile classification with visible geometry (if any) and WOK both parented to the model base directly.  Easy peasey, just like what you'd expect.  There may be other arrangements which work better.

What are the limits?

Good question.  I don't entirely know.  If you cruise through the Omnibus, you'll find a surprising number of threads on the topic of placeables with WOK, and which seem to indicate this or that, but I don't think many of the practitioners 'got' why it seems to work in the first place and so didn't really use it correctly- like placing it correctly at the center of the tile it is to be used in.  BTW, this appears to be the case because Aurora ditches (at least to some extent) the previous WOK, meaning any replacement can't be partial and must be a full 1000cm x 1000cm WOK.  You can see this visually using renderaabb and placing it improperly.  Again, in the context of a featureless, ground-level tile.

Does it require that the placeable fit entirely inside a single tile on the map?

Yes.  Pseudo tile groups appear to work, whether sliced or using something a bit gentler, like Velmar's TileLink.

@Lord Sullivan - I look forward to your empirical findings on this or any other topic.  '>

@Rolo Kipp - This only works in the toolset- and as a way to quickly add a walkable tile without having to modfiy the tileset, itself.  My use for this right now is (hopefully) as an easy way to include an airship docking tile without having to require modification of all tilesets in order to use it.  This has been a big problem such as with the addition of Some_UX's airships.  In general, tilesets are a little too 'locked in stone' for my tastes and I'd like a way for placeable creators to more easily affect them.  There are other uses and maybe some other tricks available, but that's it right now.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               lord sullivan: the way i did specific things are ok for me. nobody thought you can bumb the camera down like i did with my spider caves tileset so just take my word on what i say

a "hole" is possible for a pwk, just not a closed circle ya know eh!!!

and btw. im sick of this nitpicking realy, we are the lat ones of doing stuff so we work together or we do not at all
               
               

               

                     Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 24 novembre 2011 - 12:18 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Frith5]

               +1 to Baba's sentiment. Could this be useful for simulating good pit traps then?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               OK< OTR, I understand now what you are creating.  It is a hybrid of a tile that is unassigned to the tileset and used as a placeable.  This would mean that yes, this "quasi-placeable" is limited in usage.  If you don't have a completely flat tile to paint this placeable onto, you will end up with holes in the wok, this means that your character/npc can go UNDER a given tileset or popup into the air if the edges of the placed "quasi-placeable" do not exactly line up with the underlying tile's edges.  Ver dangerous, but likely usable for the situation of an airship dock, provided that the given tile looks right and meets the min specs of being flat etc.  

A tile as a placeable.. not real sure how useful that would be though.  I am truly not understanding why it would be necessary... your so called "dock" will work on a flat tile anyway, provided you create the pwk correctly.  You can add raised terrain via the pwk to allow stepping up onto the dock and walking across it etc, without having to have an entire tile sized placeable.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Frith5]

               So, Banner, would this technique be suitable for use in confined areas that would help with placement and with creatures/PCs going through a gap? For example, a pit trap placed in a hallway. The corridor walls would still stop movement, or would they not?

JFK
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               i once tried to spawn in a plc with a wok to prefent my npc from moving and get rid of it by removing it. in the end we have a limited engine that works as supposed and sometimes not....
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Hmmm... all of this has reminded me of some PnP spells that make walls: Ice, Iron, Stone, Force etc... Has anyone made placeables specifically for these?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               

Frith5 wrote...

So, Banner, would this technique be suitable for use in confined areas that would help with placement and with creatures/PCs going through a gap? For example, a pit trap placed in a hallway. The corridor walls would still stop movement, or would they not?

JFK

If you mean the tile replacement that OTR is showing, Yes, it likely would.  BUT your pit tile would have to exactly match the tiles on all four sides... not an easy thing to do.  If Baba_Yaga can explain how he is creating holes in the underlying tile's wok by using a placeable, that would make it much easier as you could place a smaller placeable directly into the center of your hallway/corridor etc.

It would be much easier to create the actual tile with the pit in place, then use a placeable to fill the pit when not needed or pit filled etc... that placeable can be a scripted function call tied to whatever triggers you want in game, where a complete replacement tile won't be according to what OTR is saying.

Sort of a mix of options there I think.

Having a single placeable pit that exactly matches the corridor widths of different tilesets would require multiple versions for each tilset that has different sized walls, corridors etc.  Most of them do NOT use the exact same spacing etc.  Most are close, but they all look different too, so putting an invisible placeable tile on the exact center (which IS a requirement for this to work) of any given corridor/hallway, would require the builder to create said hallway/corridor of at least 3 tiles in one direction and have nothing on the sides of those tiles for the replacment to not interferre.

Again, I am not seeing a heck of a lot of use for this, it would be much easier to just use an updated .set file with the groups added in...than it would be to go through the effort of creating a hidden wok to overlay a specific set of tiles... the downside to the placeable idea is that the builder MUST align the placeable at exact tile center, where if you use an actual tile, you already have that accomplished, and don't have to worry about accidentally stacking the placeable on top of something else, or possibly overriding the outside edges of a tile.

It is rare, but having tiles that have gaps in the wok geometry can cause all sorts of headaches.  As I mentioned above, you can end up with your player walking/falling though the wok and being under the actual tileset / area.  What is visible under a tileset might surprise you.  The other thing that happens is when the player/npc pop above the tileset in general and appear to be walking on air.  So misaligning the placeable objects wok with the center of the tile, so that it actually overlaps the tile's edges, can cause those problems.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

i once tried to spawn in a plc with a wok to prefent my npc from moving and get rid of it by removing it. in the end we have a limited engine that works as supposed and sometimes not....

ummm... you can accomplish this with standard placeables that have a suitable pwk anyway.  And as long as your placeables are indestructable, the pc can get stuck. You can then destroy those placeables via whaterver trigger/scripting you want, so I am not sure what having a wok would actually help you with here?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Bannor,
I think if you built a tileset with some placeables at the same time this could be very useful. I'm thinking about the bridge in Wyvern Crown of Cormyr for example.

I'd like to see a remake of classic Dungeon with actual pits in the tileset that can drop you to a lower level, and then make placeables that hide the pits.

You could also make portions of a tileset destroyable. The bridge of Khazadun for example.

This placeable wok mesh has many potentials if the placeables are made for a specific tileset.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               

henesua wrote...

Bannor,
I think if you built a tileset with some placeables at the same time this could be very useful. I'm thinking about the bridge in Wyvern Crown of Cormyr for example.

I'd like to see a remake of classic Dungeon with actual pits in the tileset that can drop you to a lower level, and then make placeables that hide the pits.

You could also make portions of a tileset destroyable. The bridge of Khazadun for example.

This placeable wok mesh has many potentials if the placeables are made for a specific tileset.

Most of that can be accomplished with what is already out there.  You can have a pit tile that you place a trigger inside, and cover it with a standard, non-pwk style carpet for example... you step over the hole, down you go, hit the trigger and do whatever...

You can fill that hole with a walkable placeable as well, and then destroy that placeable with scripting or triggers whatever.  I don't know of any tilesets that have been setup that way, or any placeables designed for that purpose... In WCoC, the walkable bridge was part of the tile's wok, and would be walkable even with the placeable stone not being visible or properly raised into place... IE, if you character jumped over the stones that blocked the pathway, AND if they landed on the narrow bridge section, they could walk right across.

Anyway, most of what people think are needed can already be accomplished without creating a custom placeable with a wok attached.  You just need the underlying tile to have the proper walkable surface, and your placeable to be setup correctly etc...  there really is nothing new to those ideas.

In WCoC, more specifically the TNO (Castle Exterior Rural) tileset there is the gate group that has two versions, one with gate being usable, the other with the walkway above the gate being useable.  Likely, you could use the gateway walkable version, and put a hidden placeable inside it to provide walkable space obove the doorway... the issue is getting that placeable to A) not cross a tile boundry, and  be properly placed/located.  I would have to check that gateway though to verify how it was created, I can't remember if the doorway was across two tile edges or not... although I think it is, which means the placeable idea would only work if you placed TWO of them side by side without crossing the border.  Destroy those when the door opens, and put them back when the door closes... danger here would be if there was an npc on top when you destroy the placeable... that npc or character, would fall through the still visible floor, and end up on ground level where the door is located.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lord Sullivan]

               Well just retested this whole Placeable+WOK idea. Well my results were as I had found in the past.

- Yes you can indeed create a Placeable with a WOK, however it must have a full walkmesh as
a tile and must be position in the position of a tile for it to work properly. My test showed the
game ran smooth, but this is a test done on a home single player module... not a PW.

- As I thought, it is pointless to do this. Why? because the placeable must be added at design
time in the toolset and set to "Static". You can't destroy it because it is "Static". You can't
dynamically create it because while it does get created, it ends up being treated as a none
static placeable and the engine totaly ignores the placeable's WOK.

As for the PWK Topic...
--------------------------------
-I still haven't successfully created a walkable placeable (i.e. Placeable Stairs) as Banner
suggested... if fact, I've alwasy new that a placeable's PWK cannot be made to be "walkable".
So Banner, if you care to elaborate on that please?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Lord Sullivan, 24 novembre 2011 - 05:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_WebShaman]

               

henesua wrote...

Hmmm... all of this has reminded me of some PnP spells that make walls: Ice, Iron, Stone, Force etc... Has anyone made placeables specifically for these?

The PRC does this, but I do not know if they are using custom placeables to do it.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               the spells are easy, but custom placeables would make the wall spells shine.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_The Amethyst Dragon]

               

henesua wrote...

the spells are easy, but custom placeables would make the wall spells shine.

I've made custom placeables for these spells in my PW (mine aren't solid and they intentionally just block movement, so PCs can still fire spells/missiles through them), but anyone could use some of the wall placeables included in CEP...you'd just want to make new blueprints so that the spells can call them up via script.  I know they've got ice, stone, and force wall placeable models in there.