Author Topic: Interesting discovery about PWK's  (Read 1941 times)

Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist

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Interesting discovery about PWK's
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2011, 08:05:57 pm »


               

FunkySwerve wrote...
<snipped for brevity>
That's an interesting point. Of course, since the community norm (according to Bannor, though I agree) is flat pwks, I think how most people expect models to work is NOT how you are describing. I expect any place I use to be walkable when I sink or raise it past the margin of error (is it 0.1? I forget). In fact, I rely on it, and anything different would be somewhat of a nuisance, for the reasons I've already illustrated with the bridge. Except, of course, when large objects require filler places, which simple three dimensionality can avoid, and which is the nuisance on the other end of the spectrum.
Funky


Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

Yes, exactly.  However, a flat pwk is a waste as well.

Best
bet is to not clone the geometry of the object, but to create a shape,
as simple as possible, that reflects the general shape of the object.  2
faces per side type.  Cone/angled etc, with as few faces as possible.  
In fact, a pyramid reflects the general affect of a cone, while only
requiring 4 faces.  It is perfect? No, but it approximates the shape of
the cone it replaces.

Really complex shapes are basically useless
as the object affects walkable location finding from the base or widest
parts of the object.  A simple box for a very complex object is better
than a flat plane though for targeting purposes.

What is all
boils down to, is how realistic you want your objects to affect
targeting, and path-finding.  The engine can, and does, calculate for
each face, but are all of those faces really necessary?

This is
where low-poly generation is important, and 99% of the time, it is
assumed by any serious cc creator for nwn.  The lower the poly count,
the easier the engine handles it.  However, this doesn't mean that low
poly is always the answer either.  Some things, creatures for example,
(pcs/npcs/creatures) should be higher poly.  Even then though, high poly
does NOT mean it is actually better looking.  It is a blend of poly
count and proper texture application that determines how good any
object/creature is in game.

My complaints about how the
Placeables are generally created is that no thought has been given to
what the object actually is, most of the placeables available are using
the simplest, 2 faced, flat plane, to block walking.  No thought given
to targeting etc.  No thought has been given to the objects actual
geometry etc.


Now where does that differ from your statements?  It points out exactly the charge that YOU are not reading the entire thread before posting and making accusations AND assumptions on a subjest that you just stated above you actually agree with?

Get your act together please.

I have stated that a realistic PWK for a blocking placeable is better than a flat one.  The caveat being the destined use for said object.  

My complaint is the lazybutt way of creating flat pwks simply because it requires no skill or time so it makes it easier. You have stated that you have created thousands of placeables that only have a flat pwk, and those are the ones that need to be adjusted, just as you mentioned in that post.  So, where am I wrong?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_s e n

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Interesting discovery about PWK's
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2011, 08:41:54 pm »


               its possible to get 3dimensional pwks that block sight as if they werewoks with faces set to obcuring?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_s e n

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« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2011, 08:42:59 pm »


               maybe giving the placeable a wok instead of a pwk does the trick?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist

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« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2011, 08:54:09 pm »


               

s e n wrote...

its possible to get 3dimensional pwks that block sight as if they werewoks with faces set to obcuring?


No.  The engine reads the visibilty node from the underlying tile's wok object.  That does NOT mean that you can't hide a creature from behind a wall, it just means that depending on the view of the camera, the creature will be seen anyway.  IE top down will show whatever is behind a placeable wall.

s e n wrote...

maybe giving the placeable a wok instead of a pwk does the trick?


No, Placeables do not have woks, only pwks.  You can't create a wok for a placeable object.  This is an either or type of choice, either the object is a tile, thus a wok, or a placeable, thus a pwk.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_s e n

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« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2011, 09:44:04 pm »


               but what about dis?
http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=6639
thats something always misleaded me
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Lord Sullivan

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« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2011, 10:06:14 pm »


               

s e n wrote...

but what about dis?
http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=6639
thats something always misleaded me


Such attempts at fooling the engine into thinking your placeable is a tile can lead to issues. It's better
and safe to make an object part of a tile and create the proper walkmesh for it's intended use.

@All who are learning

To be clear on the "3D PWKs" and the drop below "0" Z Axis. The placeble will continue to block as long
as the max height of the PWK remains on top of the Z Axis. If the whole of the 3D PWK ends up below the
the Z Axis, it will not block movement anymore just like a 2D Flat PWK would not. I just thought I'd throw this
in for it to be clear.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_OldTimeRadio

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« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2011, 10:10:28 pm »


               

s e n wrote...

thats something always misleaded me


If this uses the method I'm thinking of, Danmar wrote a decent breakdown of the limitations about 7 years ago in a thread titled "WOK vs PWK", which you can find in the Omnibus.  My experiments indicated he was wrong about not being able to make a hole but I haven't played around with it all that much.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist

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« Reply #37 on: November 23, 2011, 10:11:03 pm »


               That placeable and useable bed is using a 3d pwk, which is exactly what I am stating that a 3d representation on a pwk is desirable.  Yes, you can use a pwk to block movement and targeting.  A wall can prevent a creature from shooting arrows at the pc, until the creature walks around the side of the wall anyway.

A useable bed is adding a useable/walkable surface that is on TOP of a walkable surface on the flat tile itself.

What you can NOT do is add walkable on top of non-walkable.  IE, if the flat tile beneath that bed was made non walkable, the bed would not be usable.

So;  flat tile, completely walkable, you can add a placeable that blocks the ability to walk, OR to change the height (going upwards only) that the creature walks on.  IE you CAN make walkable steps that will raise the pc up when they walk across it.

So, 3d PWKs make sense depending on the object in question.  This has been my argument throughout this entire thread.  Flat pwks placed at the bottom of that bed placeable (instead of a raised pwk) would allow the pc/npc to laydown on the floor under the bed, where if you had a correct 3d pwk, it allows you to walk up to, onto the top of the placeable and thus to lay down on top of it.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_NWN_baba yaga

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« Reply #38 on: November 23, 2011, 10:14:53 pm »


               you can create a "hole" OTR. If you want an example im happy to give you an example
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

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Interesting discovery about PWK's
« Reply #39 on: November 23, 2011, 10:28:17 pm »


               <raises the...>

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...
What you can NOT do is add walkable on top of non-walkable.  IE, if the flat tile beneath that bed was made non walkable, the bed would not be usable.

So;  flat tile, completely walkable, you can add a placeable that blocks the ability to walk, OR to change the height (going upwards only) that the creature walks on.  IE you CAN make walkable steps that will raise the pc up when they walk across it.

So, possibly, you could create a bridge tile that had *geometry* for a walk above it, but walkmesh at ground level going *through* under the bridge and put in place (with triggers and scripting) an invisible block with mesh that can be raised to bridge level for walking across the bridge and lowered to ground level for walking under the bridge?

I like.

<...ante>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_OldTimeRadio

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« Reply #40 on: November 23, 2011, 10:41:47 pm »


               

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

you can create a "hole" OTR. If you want an example im happy to give you an example


Thank you for the offer! I've got a few examples on this end, though.  '<img'>
'Posted
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist

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Interesting discovery about PWK's
« Reply #41 on: November 23, 2011, 10:51:26 pm »


               Interesting, I was under the distinct impression that you could not assign a wok to a placeable.

So, you are stating that your placeable's wok overwrites the the original tile's wok?

How are you attaching this wok to the placeable?  What are the limits?  Does it require that the placeable fit entirely inside a single tile on the map?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Lord Sullivan

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Interesting discovery about PWK's
« Reply #42 on: November 23, 2011, 11:22:25 pm »


               

OldTimeRadio wrote...

NWN_baba yaga wrote...

you can create a "hole" OTR. If you want an example im happy to give you an example


Thank you for the offer! I've got a few examples on this end, though.  '<img'>
'Posted


This is not a good idea as it is as easy to create a tile that does just that without the quirks an improper
placeable presents and from what I've read over the years the test I did a while back, it's actualy pointless
to create improper placeable+Wok as you have to place/align them manually in the position of a tile.

defeats the purpose.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

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« Reply #43 on: November 23, 2011, 11:38:42 pm »


               <filling a bucket with water...>

Lord Sullivan wrote...
This is not a good idea as it is as easy to create a tile that does just that without the quirks an improper
placeable presents and from what I've read over the years the test I did a while back, it's actualy pointless
to create improper placeable+Wok as you have to place/align them manually in the position of a tile.

defeats the purpose.

I am by no means trying to fan the flames... But, if this can be made to work reliably without a major performance hit, there is one thing that would make this worthwhile... being able to create, destroy and move walkmesh by manipulating "exceptions" placeables.  

This is something that can not be done in the game with tiles.  If we could do this with placeables, this experiment will be worth it.

My opinion.

<...just in case>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Pstemarie

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Interesting discovery about PWK's
« Reply #44 on: November 24, 2011, 12:09:18 am »


               

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

Interesting, I was under the distinct impression that you could not assign a wok to a placeable.

So, you are stating that your placeable's wok overwrites the the original tile's wok?

How are you attaching this wok to the placeable?  What are the limits?  Does it require that the placeable fit entirely inside a single tile on the map?


I believe that you change the model type to TILE and the extension of the PWK to WOK. However, if I recall correctly, the placeable's WOK would have to be the same size as a tile's WOK.

Furthermore, if you set the model classification to TILE while editing it in GMax or 3ds, when you export with NWMax the exporter will create a wok file for you. Albeit, an empty one - but you could always go in and add the walkmesh geometry later. However, if you've gone to that extent, why not just make it a tile in the first place. In the case of the quicksand vid, you could easily "destroy" the quicksand just by animating it to move up and down. Some time back I experimented with water tiles where the water was animated so that it could be raised or lowered.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Pstemarie, 24 novembre 2011 - 12:12 .