Author Topic: Pilfer! Pillage!  (Read 1005 times)

Legacy_henesua

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« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2011, 01:29:58 am »


               I also agree with Eradrain. But I think arguing over legalese in this case is a mean spirited way to take this discussion.

Amethyst Dragon has made his wishes known and clearly, and those wishes are reasonable. That is essentially his "license" on his PW's content. If many in the community disrespect his wishes on this, he can leave.

I would rather he not leave. I like his content. And I hope he shares more with us.

Those are the REAL rules in this case. You break them, everybody loses.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

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« Reply #16 on: October 05, 2011, 01:33:47 am »


               <jumping up...>

Ooh! Ooh! I know! Speak softly but carry a big<boss!>...no?<no.>
Ok.

<...and settles down>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Rolo Kipp

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« Reply #17 on: October 05, 2011, 01:37:01 am »


               <drawing a smiley..>

henesua wrote...
I would rather he not leave. I like his content. And I hope he shares more with us.

Me, too. Bottom line.

<...two dots and an up-curving bottom line>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Master Jax

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« Reply #18 on: October 05, 2011, 08:03:23 am »


               As I said before, whatever the case may be, wherever your opinion may lay, the issue is a matter of objective facts against subjective principles. Appealing to moral or ethical behavior is as effective as appealing to taste or religious beliefs. The matter should be solved by having a close and detailed look at the terms of use of the Vault itself, as Eradrian mentioned.

A good example of this would be the voting system. There have been some posters following a strict rulebook regarding the review of content, yet the vast majority are determined by users who vote solely on mood swings, or even the preview pictures of works they haven't even checked out. Should we appeal to their ethics and decency too, or would it make more sense to establish and enforce a set of rules?

If anyone has an actual link to the terms of use in the Vault, it would put an end to the debate that has been going on here. I, for one, would like to see what the boundaries of interaction between users are, something that hasn't been brought up for... well, I don't think it has ever been brought up. Is it actually possible for a user to be banned from the Vault? If it is, under what conditions? Leaving things to common sense is never an option.

And man, your recent posts were surely difficult for me to get, Rolo, but now that I did, I see what you did there... hehehehe! Subtle, so much that I'm guessing they went a bit unnoticed.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Master Jax, 05 octobre 2011 - 07:11 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_WebShaman

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« Reply #19 on: October 05, 2011, 01:52:15 pm »


               Well, we did go down this path before, and it pretty much caused an uproar in the Community, which did result in a Schism (which it seems is still present) and did result in some CCers leaving, etc.

It never really did get resolved, and Bioware never made an official statement on it.

My stance remains as it was back then.

Out.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_lordofworms

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« Reply #20 on: October 05, 2011, 04:32:28 pm »


               I just want to pipe in for myself for anyone reading this and to confirm for my own work,yes, Arbor Falls and my own work is freely given and able to be used/modified/repackaged in any way/shape or form, a great way to show your enthusiasm is by by voting, posting a 'thank you' or any of a hundred things you could do to help show your support for your favorit artists. but for me, personally its not necessary. I believe Baba Yaga also has the same views as myself. If I make a cool looking creature and post it , within a couple months I am almost guaranteed a great new model built off of it..which may inspire me to do more...
but thats the way I am..give freely.

Now for tAD, I agree with him as well, it *would* be nice to keep all my own things just for Arbor Falls, but for me its like this... I do have stuff that only Arbor Falls has, meaning I havent packaged it up seperately (custom systems, scripts, models, creatures,etc) but hey, if someone wants to gruellingly take apart these systems and rewrite them for their own use..or browse the haks for all the models and cross hakked rferences to textures and such...all the power to them...its this reason only alone that I haven't repackaged some of this rare content, so sometimes, hey these guys are doing me a favor.
but AD does have some great stuff, i mean really really great, he once helped me with some spell VFX and is all around the kinda guy I would love to work with. Just his views are different from my views which is different from maybe someone elses view.


as always play nice with one another, after all, we are all we got now. (:
.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par lordofworms, 05 octobre 2011 - 03:34 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Mad.Hatter

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« Reply #21 on: October 05, 2011, 05:22:38 pm »


               I love AD and I love his publicly released work. I've been meaning to try Aenea for ages but haven't had the time for any MP NWN. I've never actually downloaded his PW haks.

However, something bugs me about his post at the beginning of the thread. He states that he uses the NWN Vault BECAUSE he doesn't want to pay for bandwidth. Fine. That means that the IGN Vault pays for his bandwidth usage.

How does the bandwidth ultimately get paid for then? Through advertisements and premium memberships. I specifically turn off AdBlock Plus when on IGN because it is one of the websites I feel obligated to support that way. I have also been a premium member in the past.

In that sense I have partially (if in minuscule fashion) paid for Aenea's hak hosting. Unless the Vault has clear usage terms (which I haven't looked at because I've simply respected AD's requests) preventing paying patrons from using hosted content then I'm not sure I should feel terrible about using AD's stuff.

Now, if AD hosted his haks on Filestube, 4shared, or as a Torrent I doubt anyone would blink twice about using the content. Do things magically change because the IGN Vault has a NWN picture at the top?

To be safe, I would tell AD to host his own haks and ask his players to donate for the added bandwidth. Otherwise I think we can see another sort of entitlement: "I can make you pay for my hak hosting but you can't use my stuff." which, IMO, is just as bad as "You say I can't use your stuff, but I'm going to anyway."
               
               

               
            

Legacy_TimG

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« Reply #22 on: October 05, 2011, 06:56:40 pm »


               nothing good can come from this thread at all...
               
               

               
            

Legacy__six

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« Reply #23 on: October 05, 2011, 07:03:42 pm »


               The simple answer is ask people about stuff. If they don't mind, they'll say yes of course, and if they are bothered, then they'll have their opportunity to say no. Everyone's happy.

It's not difficult, and is arguably the most polite option. Regardless of how much politeness you feel is necessary, more is hardly likely to be a bad thing.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par _six, 05 octobre 2011 - 06:04 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_AndarianTD

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« Reply #24 on: October 05, 2011, 07:21:36 pm »


               I just want to state my agreement with Eradrain's and The Amethyst Dragon's comments here. I think that content creators have a right to determine the use and distribution of their work, and that requests like AD's should simply be respected as a matter of community ethics.

I did, however, want to comment on one point that came up in the discussion:

Mad.Hatter wrote...

I love AD and I love his publicly released work... However, something bugs me about his post at the beginning of the thread. He states that he uses the NWN Vault BECAUSE he doesn't want to pay for bandwidth. Fine. That means that the IGN Vault pays for his bandwidth usage...

Unless the Vault has clear usage terms (which I haven't looked at because I've simply respected AD's requests) preventing paying patrons from using hosted content then I'm not sure I should feel terrible about using AD's stuff.

Now, if AD hosted his haks on Filestube, 4shared, or as a Torrent I doubt anyone would blink twice about using the content...

To be safe, I would tell AD to host his own haks and ask his players to donate for the added bandwidth. Otherwise I think we can see another sort of entitlement: "I can make you pay for my hak hosting but you can't use my stuff." which, IMO, is just as bad as "You say I can't use your stuff, but I'm going to anyway."

The Vault does in fact have guidelines regarding these issues. Maximus and I wrote them together in an attempt to address the custom content controversy that arose a few years ago. Those guidelines can be found here:

Custom Content Authorship Guidelines

The important issues are outlined in points 1, 2, 6, 7, and 8, and can be summarized as follows:

- Users of the NWVault are expected to respect the reasonable wishes expressed by authors regarding the use, distribution, and crediting of content that is linked to and/or hosted on it.

- The Vault does not restrict the kind of usage restrictions an author can place on their work. This recognizes the legitimacy of authors like Amethyst Dragon placing the kind of usage restrictions that he has on his submissions. It also recognizes that the presence of a submission on the Vault's servers is not necessarily a grant of permission for others to re-use that work against the author's stated wishes.

- When it comes to content that you've uploaded to the Vault, it may or may not decide to enforce your request to have that content removed if someone else re-uploads it to the Vault. That is, essentially, a risk that you take when you use the Vault's servers and bandwidth to store and distribute your work.

- If you want to be able to expect your usage restrictions to be enforced by the Vault, then while you can link to it from the Vault, you are expected to have hosted the content in question on your own site.

Interestingly, it seems that IGN has adapted those guidelines to other communities than NWN's. The same guidelines can be found, for example, on IGN's WOW Vault here.

As co-author of the guidelines, I think I can probably address questions about the policy if anyone has them.

Eradrain wrote...

Naturally that's very difficult/impossible to enforce, but decent human beings won't flaunt the artist's wishes.

Agreed, but just for the record, that should be "flout" rather than "flaunt." '<img'>
               
               

               


                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 05 octobre 2011 - 11:34 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Mad.Hatter

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« Reply #25 on: October 06, 2011, 05:24:02 am »


               Thanks for clearing that up Andarian. It looks like my internal moral compass is properly attuned!
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Master Jax

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« Reply #26 on: October 06, 2011, 07:27:10 am »


               First of all, thanks to Andarian for posting the link. Yet again, however, and as I have expressed before: People THIS IS NOT the topic the thread was meant to address. I agree with the previous poster who said nothing good may come of this discussion. We all have different notions on what is "decent", "moral", "polite" or "respectful", and they definitely differ. I had never seen such a tense debate over NWN, and would not want to be the cause of a rift in the community.

I wasn't planning on saying this, because I don't want this to turn into a dogfight, but for the sake of clarification: I do not use any of the Aenea exclusive content, nor have I modified it. The only content I use are the cloaks, the colorized scrolls, and gui icons, and all of those were publicly released to the community. I haven't altered them in any way. Just think about it: If I were already tinkering with the Amethyst Dragon's content, why would I have kept asking him to release it or re-package it? Makes no sense, right? I'm hoping it was all a misunderstanding, and that we let it go, given I've explained the whole issue since my second post, and have apologized for any offense my writing may have caused.

As for to where I stand in this whole issue (which some community members have been asking me over the last days), I completely agree with Six:

"The simple answer is ask people about stuff. If they don't mind, they'll say yes of course, and if they are bothered, then they'll have their opportunity to say no."
               
               

               
            

Legacy_AndarianTD

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« Reply #27 on: October 06, 2011, 11:49:37 am »


               

Master Jax wrote...

First of all, thanks to Andarian for posting the link. Yet again, however, and as I have expressed before: People THIS IS NOT the topic the thread was meant to address.


I agree that it's time to get back to the original topic. '<img'>
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Wall3T

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« Reply #28 on: October 06, 2011, 12:45:09 pm »


               well.... on that note, your welcome to use what little comtent i have created if you wish. recently the ccc group released the Airship theme located here: http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=8075

my Airship (Under Raven_Blood) is one of many i will release over time
               
               

               


                     Modifié par oOKyeOo, 06 octobre 2011 - 11:46 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_WebShaman

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« Reply #29 on: October 06, 2011, 01:20:19 pm »


               Thanks, LoW and oOKyeOo for your gracious terms of use for the Community!