Author Topic: Pro Q, CEP, and PRC  (Read 959 times)

Legacy_TSMDude

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1515
  • Karma: +0/-0
Pro Q, CEP, and PRC
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2011, 05:41:12 pm »


               I actually agree with OMB as well. I think i am just not saying what I wanted to as well as I would like.
Basically some more talk between the groups is what I wish. 

And Zwek they do do some of thier own stuff on the CEP like the off pallette crafting and the new DM Tools and Monster/Spawning system.

All in all, there is not something I dislike about almost any hak I saw out there and what i did was steal/compile/slice/dice/grab material from so many sources that I finally had to slow down and restart because so much was awesomely awesome....(my new favorite word as I am coaching a group of girls who say it so often it is stuck in my head like 24/7)

I think us lesser beings (kidding fellow lesser folks) would wish that you content Gods talked a bit more openly is all. When we go and try to add in some of the more fantastic stuff we sometimes come up agianst a wall and then fell we need to resort to coming here and asking for help and I will admit...I am sometimes daunted by asking one of the folks here help as I do not always think they will be nice about me using something they did in a CEP PW or a PQ/Enhanced PW or a CTP PW or some mixture of the bunch.

If truth be told I am not sure if I am asking for anything as just stating that it sometimes frustrates me that you all argue as seperatly I have talked to you all and not one of you seems to be unreasonable...except that Aleron guy he is an arse'Posted...it was just something I wanted off my chest is all.

Course now I want all the Forgotten Realms PWs to join together and make one big server....and I want a new car. And I want my kid's school to stop cutting their budget. And I want a cheeseburger...sighs....I guess I will have to settle for the cheeseburger.


(Kidding btw Aleron....)
               
               

               
            

Legacy__six

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Karma: +0/-0
Pro Q, CEP, and PRC
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2011, 06:19:01 pm »


               

TSMDude wrote...

and I want a new car.


*shrugs*

I want all cars to merge together into one giant Transformer.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Frith5

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 595
  • Karma: +0/-0
Pro Q, CEP, and PRC
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2011, 11:53:08 pm »


               I agree with the sentiment OMB expresses too. But, who on earth suggested every content maker 'join CEP'? I never heard of that one, and I've been with NWN since launch. I don't even really know what 'joining CEP' means in this context? Letting CEP put my stuff in their compilation? Is that joining CEP? Using the appropriate CEP 2da along with 1.69 2da when I release stuff, so it'll work with CEP? Is that 'joining CEP'? If it is, how does it stop me from staying diverse or creating new stuff? I don't get the point here. I'm certainly not the most prolific content creator. But everything I do create can be taken and used in any way, shape, or form. This includes in CEP or ProjectQ. My stuff is a gift, and I don't tell people how they can use my gifts I give them. However, I do not have a problem with other people trying to restrict their content. It's a moral thing, not a legal thing, to me.
I'm sorry if CEP had issues with other group's 2da files. Bummer. Can't really go backward and re-write history though.
All the things mentioned are right, though. I'm not arguing anything said here. I simply believe knocking CEP gains absolutely nobody absolutely anything. Period.
TSMDude, I think at this stage in everyone's beloved NWN, it is probably up to individuals to decide on what sort of content they want, and then to make it play nice.
I love what CEP has done for this community, because despite anything said, I don't think the effects for all those years of having a single, recognizable, Bioware-endorsed set of custom content haks has had on unifying the community of players and at least lending a resemblance of standardization, can be overstated. It's easy to focus on builders, but CEP really worked best for Players. They simply downloaded CEP,and forgot about it.

_six, while that'd be cool, I think this is more like wanting all cars to be able to use the same highways, and being able to jump in and drive any car you want, when you want it. All cars are available, not all cars are merged into one. '<img'>

Take care, everyone. Be excellent to one another (and that includes the people who are working on CEP). '<img'>

JFK
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Estelindis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: +0/-0
Pro Q, CEP, and PRC
« Reply #18 on: May 10, 2011, 01:14:49 am »


               

Frith5 wrote...

who on earth suggested every content maker 'join CEP'?

I threw something like that (everyone joining one big group) out there as one of the possible interpretations of TSMDude's post when asking him to clarify what he meant.  After all, he mentioned what he'd do if he won the lottery: pay people to make stuff together (presumably cooperating as part of the same group, which wouldn't necessarily be called the CEP in this far-flung scenario).  My intent wasn't to be preposterous, just to establish what TSMDude was really requesting. 

Honestly, though, being paid to make content would, I expect, be a big motivator in helping people to work together.  '<img'>  Since that's not what happens in the NWN world, though, my previous remarks about this being a hobby and people working on different types of content, alone or in various groups, comes into play.  Hope that makes sense.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Estelindis, 10 mai 2011 - 12:15 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Frith5

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 595
  • Karma: +0/-0
Pro Q, CEP, and PRC
« Reply #19 on: May 10, 2011, 01:52:55 am »


               

Estelindis wrote...

Honestly, though, being paid to make content would, I expect, be a big motivator in helping people to work together.  '<img'>  Since that's not what happens in the NWN world, though, my previous remarks about this being a hobby and people working on different types of content, alone or in various groups, comes into play.  Hope that makes sense.


Yep, money would be a motivator - however, it could be a repressing factor in a way too I bet. I know if people were getting paid, I'd have been feeling so outclassed I'd probably never have released anything. I absolutely get a kick out of reading about a newcomer testing the CC waters. There first stuff probably won't be 'great content', but with encouragement they just might become one of those legends like lordofworms, _six, Estelindis, and countless others.

The whole thing I think is more about someone really wanting to do something. So they try to do it. And they keep trying, until they manage something. And they keep working to make it better. And they make it better. And they . . .

That's part of why I don't care to see any group beset, even if they might not be a person's perfect cup of tea. CEP at least tries to put together content, tries to make new things, and tries to get them to people to use, all for free. Likewise CTP, ProjectQ, CCP, CMP, CSP, and (my favorite 'collection') Lord of Worms with his Arbor Falls project! FREE FREE FREE!!!

I may be idealistic, and I'm certainly not advocating praising that which you find less than to your taste. However, I'll always prefer praising the good over complaining about the bad, especially when the work is freely given and often thankless.

Thanks to all the above groups for all those hours of work.

JFK
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Estelindis

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 935
  • Karma: +0/-0
Pro Q, CEP, and PRC
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2011, 02:51:17 am »


               

Frith5 wrote...

Yep, money would be a motivator - however, it could be a repressing factor in a way too I bet.

Oh, I definitely agree.  There are always two sides to these things.  '<img'>  The only funny thing for me is seeing my name alongside those vastly more talented - but, as you say, as long as these things remain free, such concerns are really unimportant.  We're just doing this for our own pleasure; we don't have to be as good as the very best (nice though that would be).

Frith5 wrote...

I don't care to see any group beset, even if they might not be a person's perfect cup of tea.

Neither do I.  "Idealistic" though it may be, I feel we should all live and let live.

Thanks very much for your kind words and for contributing positively to the discussion.  I must admit that I was wary when I saw this topic initially, but in fact it's really been fine.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_AndarianTD

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 725
  • Karma: +0/-0
Pro Q, CEP, and PRC
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2011, 04:34:19 am »


               If we're making wishes, then I'll offer mine and say that I'd also like to see the various NWN CC making groups work work together more effectively at this. I don't know how many folks here have actually done a 2DA merge of CEP and Q, for example, but I have (along with a bunch of my own custom module content as well). So I've seen up close just how much of a tangle some of it can be.

I'm not sure how realistic it would be as a goal to try to improve this or how to go about doing it, but if it were possible I'd be happy to sign up to the program. The problem is that I don't see any way to make the major packages more easily integrable now without a major redesign of some of them. A lot of content has to be moved around to resolve the existing 2DA collisions. I did some of that for Sanctum 3, but there's a lot more that would have to be done.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par AndarianTD, 10 mai 2011 - 03:37 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Calvinthesneak

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1159
  • Karma: +0/-0
Pro Q, CEP, and PRC
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2011, 05:01:14 am »


               Ahhh modularity, something I would like to see more of.  Instead of giant mega downloads, modular pieces for every package that would be downloaded and could be made to work together by end users.  Yet it's the one thing that most content makers don't seem to want.  Their work combined with that of others.  I can certainly understand the desire to see ones own work appropriately lauded and recognized among the community.

Anyhow I don't create my own content, I simply have the ability to combine the work of others.  At the end of the day it is not my place to say what should be done with someone else's work.  I can combine for my own use, the rest is up to the community.  I share what I can fix what I can.

In many cases content could be combined, in other cases not so much.

It is people's responsibility to work together and do what they enjoy for the community.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Challseus

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 11
  • Karma: +0/-0
Pro Q, CEP, and PRC
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2011, 05:06:48 am »


               I admit, I bowed out of the NWN modding scene to move onto NWN2 and more in 2006, so I didn't really see the events unfold, though I have heard it told many times. My only real gripe is CEP's backward compatability. I know I'm dating myself, but I developed my games using CEP 1.01.

I'm not sure why they changed the names of the haks and such with CEP 2.0 (again, I wasn't around), but I *still* get emails from people saying they can't load my mod, and I have to tell them they need CEP 1.53 (at least that's compatible!) or lower.

*Shrugs*
               
               

               
            

Legacy__six

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1436
  • Karma: +0/-0
Pro Q, CEP, and PRC
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2011, 11:43:46 am »


               

Frith5 wrote...

_six, while that'd be cool, I think this is more like wanting all cars to be able to use the same highways, and being able to jump in and drive any car you want, when you want it. All cars are available, not all cars are merged into one. '<img'>


That's already where we are. The only barrier is people being afraid of the top hak police.

I dunno, I mean from the aspect of simply working together - most of us are. I mean, I'm a member of Project Q, but I've made terrains for CTP, a bunch of small things for random PWs, a huge amount of my own 'solo' content over the years - and pretty much all of that is at least feasably compatible. Especially with tilesets - I've always made sure mine don't even need doortypes merging to work together with others'.

The big barrier you tend to get in NWN is that in order to make something explicitly comaptible without the use of a merge hak, you force your project to require it. For example, were Project Q to be made compatible with CEP out-of-the-box, it would become nothing more than a CEP add-on, which considering it steps over much of the same ground in a different manner, is clearly undesirable. I mean, one of the key motivations behind Q was to make it smaller than CEP, which would be for nothing if CEP was needed to use it.

Then of course we have the ability to leave aside 2da lines in order to make projects more easily mergeable. Well, for the most part, most of the projects do that. Q, CTP and PRC all use different areas of all our 2da files, and Q has left space for a few smaller and lesser known haks in our files as well. Q with CEP is a slightly different matter, as originally it was intended that content that was essentially the same in both haks should use the same 2da lines to make it more easily portable from existing CEP modules. However as time went on, and content was remade, reworked or just fixed it became more shades of grey and a bit confusing. I'm not entirely sure how exactly our content is arranged now (I haven't had a copy of CEP to compare since 2.0) but I'm pretty sure we scrapped the idea. I think when it came down to it, to have everything lined up we'd have had to reserve about 3 times as much space, with 60% of that space just empty lines for stuff we didn't want to include but was in the CEP.

CEP has always been a huge barrier both as a group member and a lone artist due to its sheer size, and the frequency with which they overstep and change their reserved 2da ranges, add content to areas they claim they'd never touch, and their apparent lack of desire to interact with anyone else in the community.\\

It's funny how all these discussions always wind back to CEP, though. I think it's something to do with their acronym. It's so god damned catchy.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par _six, 10 mai 2011 - 10:45 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Frith5

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 595
  • Karma: +0/-0
Pro Q, CEP, and PRC
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2011, 01:57:22 pm »


               Those dratted tophak police! Yesterday they pulled me over, and I KNOW it was just because of my long hair! '<img'>

Well, all personalities aside, I really don't think any of this stuff is a matter of one group wanting to specifically try to make their stuff UNcompatible. It's just that doing so is more work, and hidden work, and drudge work to boot. Also, as time wears on and more and more great stuff comes down the pike, it's natural for groups to want to include that stuff, and tougher and tougher to integrate it with the existing collection while at the same time maintaining compatibility with someone else's collection.

It's not impossible though.
I'm not so into it all anymore, sadly. I still like making things, when I can find the time. I still get a thrill any time I see that someone new has downloaded one of my meager offerings on the Vault. But I rarely find time to play, build, or even fire up NWN to take a look around one of the great worlds out there.
So many great things to do with this game!

Regards,
JFK