Medieval City

[Legacy_lordofworms]

               I dont think merging textures will reduce it that much..look at my sets, hell I had a crapload of duplicates, repeating textures sprawled all over the place and I didnt notice much difference when 'cleaning' them up.

try just changing any 'alpha' textures from DDS to TGA and give it a go. or when its available (hak) I am sure many of us fellow tiledesigners are gonna rip this apart and can really see where you might be going wrong. I will be one of them and will be right back here offering advice if you like.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Does the NWN client have an issue with efficiently handling draw calls? I've worked with custom content in other engines (primarily Unity) and the draw calls are what got me on lower end equipment. I could see a older / less efficient game like NWN having an issue with that.

Typically every asset (mesh) in view is a draw call. NWN uses very simple shaders so each material would be a single draw call as well - unless the alpha channel gets a second pass. All of those "shadow" projectors produced by NWN light sources are also a draw call.

Perhaps a way to test the draw call issue is by reducing the visiblity range with fog and see what happens.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               

henesua wrote...

Does the NWN client have an issue with efficiently handling draw calls? I've worked with custom content in other engines (primarily Unity) and the draw calls are what got me on lower end equipment. I could see a older / less efficient game like NWN having an issue with that.

Typically every asset (mesh) in view is a draw call. NWN uses very simple shaders so each material would be a single draw call as well - unless the alpha channel gets a second pass. All of those "shadow" projectors produced by NWN light sources are also a draw call.

Perhaps a way to test the draw call issue is by reducing the visiblity range with fog and see what happens.

Yes, NWN has issues with draw calls.  Fog distance can help, but will not totally eleminate the issues.  There is a minimum loaded amount of tilespace.  I think it is a 3x3 box.  Increasing fog beyond 45 meters to say 100, will increase that draw space considerably and thus load the engine that much more.  Yes, alpha's get a second pass. Yes, shadows get a third.  Placeables get a 4th, and 5th call.  There are others in there that I am likely missing as well.  So, you "paint" an area on the screen a minimum of 5 times.  This is all done in the background, before the area becomes visible, and then is recalculated with each and every step you make in the game... the engine sits there as if it were the pc, and asks "can I see you yet" take a step "how 'bout now?" another step "are you visible yet?".  Each time it does that calculation, it repaints the area, using the same previously mentioned draw calls, including shadow/alpha etc.  

NWN 2 and Witcher, are both based off the original Aurora engine that Bioware created for NWN, but BOTH of those games, rewrote a considerable amount of code to enable the better graphics options that were then available. (Like DirectX 10)  NWN was written to work in windows 95.  Ninety Five!  Back then, direct x was well below version 7.  NWN was updated to work within 98 and Me, and XP, but the main core graphic engine was not changed much.   It WAS changed, but not enough to handle what people are expecting from games nowadays.  It was NOT updated to the level that NWN 2 and Witcher require.  

We, the custom content folks in THIS great community, have pushed the Aurora engine well beyond what it was intended to handle.  We continue to push the envelope more and more as we continue to attempt to improve the graphics quality.  However, all of the CC folks have run into the main limiting issues with NWN, and those issues will remain since Bioware has stopped all development on this ancient (by industry standards) game.  

Sometimes we just have to bow down and accept that Bump-mapped objects, terrains, etc, are just not possible with this engine.  We can convert backwards from better games that have better graphics options,  but you get serious lag when you do so.  Which is what is happening here.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Bannor Bloodfist, 30 mars 2011 - 03:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy__six]

               

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

Sometimes we just have to bow down and accept that Peltmapped objects, terrains, etc, are just not possible with this engine.

Not intending to cast any negative light on your post Bannor, but just to avoid anyone being confused, will point out I think you mean bump mapping. Pelt mapping is a technique for setting out UVWs automatically that I've used many a time.

I think it also bears pointing out that  the original artwork for the game was not always a huge amount more technically requiring than some of the stuff coming out now. NWN suffered more from the developers deciding every natural surface had to be completely 180 degree flat, and thinking far too 'inside the box' when it came to using the tileset system to make level art. You can do a lot to improve the graphics simply by using more natural modelling styles & textures.

Looking awesome as ever, anyway, Zwerkules. I can't wait to have a play around with this in the toolset (the sooner the better)
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _six, 30 mars 2011 - 01:45 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               Yep, sorry, I did mean Bump-mapped, corrected now in original post.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Bannor, I'm not sure we are talking about the same thing vis-a-vis draw calls, as I'm a bit confused by your post. But I am more used to Unity and how it operates than I am with NWN so perhaps that is my problem.

You mention that it takes only 5 calls to put the area on screen. And that each type of asset gets only one pass as a draw call, rather than each asset. How is that possible? I would assume that every mesh in NWN demands one or two draw calls. My understanding is that NWN only allows one material per mesh. And that each material is very simple thus requiring at most two passes.

The reason why I mentioned this to Zwerkules is that this could be the problem he is running into. His tileset appears very rich, and may have tons of materials in each tile which would really rack up the draw calls.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Wall3T]

               

Zwerkules wrote...

oOKyeOo, I have played Oblivion, but that is not where the inspiration came from. There are a few buildings I made which are based on photos of medieval houses, one in Great Britain and the rest in Germany, but the majority of the houses I simply built without having any photos or other computer games as an inspiration. I still have four photos of houses I want to build, so there'll be as many houses I made with the 'aid' of photos as there'll be houses I simply made up.

thanks for answering my question :3

its good to know you drew the inspiration from real life structures than video games (german houses are the best to look at!) i try to do the same but i usualy find myself looking at what other people biult to help creat my towns and villages...

when this comes out, it will completly replace my need for so many custom haks in my own p.w... ive been attempting to do what you just did all in one set lol 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zwerkules]

               I'm not quite finished changing all the windows to use the texture which has all four kinds of windows on it instead of four separate windows, but I have finished most of it. I also now included the TGA of that texture instead of the dds. This both improved performance at night, though strangely the region that has the most houses is up to 21-30 fps now while another one that has fewer houses only went up to 17 instead of 16 frames. I will replace a few more dds textures with tgas and finish working on the windows  and see how much that will help.
Anyway, this is the first time that performance at night improved at all, even though in one region it was only from 16 to 17. When I almost felt like giving up on those illuminated windows, I now feel that I might be able to raise the frame rate enough.
A few animations broke when exporting the changed tiles, so I'll have to fix those too tomorrow.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_lordofworms]

               Great news.

I also had some very bizarre issues with TGA to DDS in my own tileset designs.I am not sure what the issue is per say...
but I have had problems with TGA (made in paint shop pro) to DDS creating unbearable lag but mostly 'stuttering' as I moved around or tried to rearrange my camera view
whereas if I re-saved those same TGA's in Adobe Photoshop and then exported to DDS I would no longer have that lag...?? do I know why? no does it make sense? no
the alphas always were the worse.
not sure if any of this is relevent to you(not sure what paint program your using and what DDS conversion tool your using) but its something I dealt with and changing what i did above solved lag issues for me mostly.
hope it helps bring this stunning set to all our eager hands.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zwerkules]

               Once the entry is approved you can find it here: http://nwvault.ign.c....Detail&id=8031

The lowest framerate I got when it is day was 38 and it even goes up to 100 fps sometimes. At night I got framerates between 20 and 40 in most areas, but in one area the framerate is still only 17 and the highest framerate I got there is only 19.
The strange thing is that this area has fewer houses and the fog distance was far lower than in the other areas. It used one building that wasn't in the other areas, so I replaced it by a different one, but that tile was not the reason for the lag. I don't see what's so different about this area.
Well, I think this tileset can be used in areas where it is always day now. For night areas it will still be too laggy for a lot of computers.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy__six]

               Vonderful, vonderful!

My only complaint is that it's maybe a bit too dark and desaturated. Yes, I know this is coming from the guy who made Wildlands, but still! I guess it depends on the kind of theme you're going for, but I tend to think even a brighter tileset can be made to look pretty grim with lighting settings, and its easier to work that way round than trying to brighten up a grey tileset.

Especially with the fairly bright grass outside, it gives off oppressing vibes.

I really like the big towered city gate. Maybe a high city wall crosser in that style would be good. And if you're feeling ambitious, a castle terrain 
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _six, 01 avril 2011 - 04:15 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zwerkules]

               I have nearly finished making a castle terrain based on the TNO castles for the NWN2 houses tileset, but I won't use that for this tileset because I want a different look, especially because I don't want the flat roofs the TNO castles have.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bardeyes]

               Spectacular--the best city exterior ever.  Daylight framerate is fine on my machine in a16x16 area with 60m fog - just a few FPS better than what I get with lordofworms beautiful seasonal tilesets, and completely adequate.  Nighttime, er...well the visual effect is stunning with all of the illuminated windows. It really is truly lovely, but...I get about 0.5 FPS at night.  No, my system isn't fast, but it handles most other tilesets without a whimper.  lord rosenkrantz's tilesets tile sets--spectacular though they may be--are pretty much the only ones that I can't use.

Regardless of the above, you've created something visually amazing.  Great work!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Bardeyes, 02 avril 2011 - 04:11 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_henesua]

               Great work! The nighttime appearance didn't create much lag for my crappy laptop. But I didn't have any braziers visible either.

I have one request:
building tiles that can straddle across the edges of raised terrain. The key to this is the ability to paint building tiles to the edge of raised cobbles wihtout the toolset causing the adjacent tiles to also rise. Having different building types that stitch the upper and lower building tles together would be awesome also. I think this is very useful for creating the illusion of a medieval hill town.

thanks for your work. this is a beautiful tileset.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Builder_Anthony]

               The forest is pretty nice there too defintely worth the download.Imbasicly done with my city but the stone floor is really nicely textured.You could make a nice like forest scene with this and throw in a little coblestone area in the forest it looks supriseingly real good.Little add ons here and there to buildings and castle walls.