Lost Vault Content?

[Legacy_TSMDude]

               I agree with invisigoth in theory. I truly do. Yet when I post ANYTHING to the Vault I understand it is no longer mine and if I pull it down and someone else repost it even with nothing changed I can only shrug and go oh well.



When the orginal mod was made and then released in the toolset to us a rare thing was born...a true NWN Community and many of us share in a few 1000 inside jokes and such. It is dysfunctional at times but in the end there is not many gaming communitys outside of RPGs that are still going strong as long as we have.



Sorry...off my soapbox and back into me ale.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Androrc]

               

Invisig0th wrote...

Let me state up front that I'm not sure I would personally consider a prefab to be "original custom content". In my mind, prefabs fall into a gray area in between. That said....

Jackal_GB wrote...
If you have a file that is not breaking any copyrights (another reason some files are deleted) and you feel it has value to the community, by all means upload it yourself. If you have the original authors name, be sure to credit that person.

I completely disagree with this advice.  Re-uploading someone else's unmodified custom content work with the intent of circumventing their decision to not make that content available online is a very bad idea, for several reasons.

To start with, certain content authors have removed particular content for very good practical reasons  The example above of an unfixed bug which was found only after the upload was posted is a perfectly valid reason to remove soemthing. If the author does not feel that the work is up to their quality standards, you should obviously respect their wishes on that matter.

Reposting an author's pulled content with no modifications shows a complete disrespect for that author's opinion on whether or not that content should be available. You run the very real risk of making that original author extremely angry with you (and possibly many other NWN custom content authors and community members as well) if you do not respect the wishes of the original author regarding the content they created.  Whether or not you agree with their decision is irrelevant. It's their work, not yours.

If you do upload someone else's original work without modifications, you may also run into some amount of trouble with the NWVault staff. If the author was upset enough to remove their content, it's a safe bet they will be even more upset by your attempt to repost their work contrary to their wishes. And if that original author asks the staff of NWVault to remove what you uploaded,  I'm quite confident it will be removed immediately. So your upload would in most cases just get deleted anyway.

So as tempting as it may be, uploading someone else's unmodified work when it is likely that the original author explicltly wishes it to not be available is just not a good idea.

Nowhere has the author explicitly expressed desire to pull the content from the vault; on the contrary, the author had left it in the Vault since 2002; I had downloaded it in just last year. Given that it was first posted in 2002, the author may very well not be active in the community anymore. However, if the author ever expressed any anger over this, I would remove it immediately.

In any case, I sincerely doubt the author has taken this down. I think what is more probable it disappeared through an internet error or something of the sort.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_eeriegeek]

               From the IGN User Agreement Section D:

"You may Post only User Content which you own, have created or which you have clear permission to Post."
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jackal_GB]

               I think Napster, The Pirate's Bay and Limewire had similar statements to that affect too, IIRC
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jackal_GB, 19 décembre 2010 - 04:10 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Invisig0th]

               Submissions do not disappear from the NWVault website due to "some internet error". That is not how it works. If this particular content was available for download in the past and it is now not available, then it was definitely either removed by the author or the NWVault staff. That being the case, it is not wise to ignore that fact and attempt to circumvent it.

As others have stated above, it's also very easy to think something is not on NWVault just because you don't know exactly what to search for. Authors often complete the upload form poorly, resulting in a diminished ability to find their submission using the NWVault search feature (which isn't that great to start with). Needless to say, there is no reason for a third party to upload something again if it is already available on the site.

So either someone explicitly removed that content for a specific reason (in which case it is a bad idea to upload it again), or it is available but just hard to find (in which case it is also a bad idea to upload it again).

Please note that repackaged content or altered content is quite simply not what the OP asked about here. Trying to steer this thread in the direction of the wider  "who owns what? who needs permission for what?" discussion is a disservice to this thread. that subject has been debated in many other threads, but it is not the subject of this thread.

In the very SPECIFIC case of simply re-uploading another person's work in unmodified form (as described in the first post), the concerns are much more clear and not really open to debate.  It is a fact that doing this is most likely contrary to the wishes of either the author or NWVault staff (or both). It is also a fact that a large portion of the NWN Community would not approve of folks uploading that kind of stuff UNMODIFIED if they can't manage to find it on NWVault for some reason. At best, doing something like that is controversial, and quite likely to ****** some people off.

I'll state it again -- personally, I really couldn't give a flip about prefabs in particular. I doubt there is a single prefab author who would get upset about this. However, the advice I objected to was much more broad, and included pretty much any custom content. That goes too far. Others in this thread have specifically mentioned stuff that is clearly "custom" content like custom scripting systems and custom tileset HAKs. Rest assured that re-uploading stuff like that when you are not the author is frowned upon by a large portion of the NWN community.

So as you can see, the issue of uplaoding someone else's work for archival purposes is not quite as clear-cut as others have described above. Uploading a prefab probably isn't going to lead to much trouble, but people should be aware that doing anything beyond that is likely to lead to some amount of controversy, up to and including the deletion of your submission.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Invisig0th, 19 décembre 2010 - 01:57 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Birdman076]

               

Invisig0th wrote...

Submissions do not disappear from the NWVault website due to "some internet error". That is not how it works. If this particular content was available for download in the past and it is now not available, then it was definitely either removed by the author or the NWVault staff. That being the case, it is not wise to ignore that fact and attempt to circumvent it.

So your saying the vault is immune to any kind of database corruption, dos attack, hacking, hardware issue, software issues, human fallibility, etc that could theoretically make submissions disappear? If thats the case i'll switch from my current web host immediately.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               Actually, firstly the Vault has "lost" previous content and have made posts asking if folk had copies they could use to repost it. So it's not out of the realm of possibility that this may have been the case. We might never know and the original author may be unavailable to reached at this time.



Secondly, in the specific case of a hak being removed. If it was used in accordance with the authors wishes and/or any restrictions and then later removed ... a repost should not violate IGN's terms. Afterall, it is now a requirement for a greater enhanced work somewhere whether as part of a downloadable module or to enter a PW. There's alot of "what ifs" though and even more assupmtions, but ... entries removed that others depend on and used in good faith and within the authors original terms would be legally forfeit if later removed and the author would have no recourse to follow for someone reposting them unless the work(s) were now falsely claimed as other than the original author's.



Now, if a hak is made specifically for a module or PW and the author states it may not be used for other than that purpose, that's a whole other issue. If another module maker or PW adopts the work despite the authors wishes and its later removed, they would simply be "SOL". They have no recourse legally as they violated the use of the material already.



Lastly, there are currently already haks on NWN Vault that meet my specific example above. They were used in good faith originally and the users abided by the authors restrictions and requirements if any. Then when the author later deleted them, they were reposted by others with a clear explanation that it was a repost and credits made to the original author. If I post a hak tommorrow of my own creation and grant folk free use of it ... I'd have no standing to complain if a month later I want to "take my hak and go home" after others have adopted it and now depend on it as part of a greater work. If I chose to delete it, others could repost it and simply give me credit for it and there's nothing I could do. I would have been the one "breaking the contract" and not them.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Invisig0th]

               I am forced to assume that you are not a lawyer, which of course renders what you said above as mere speculation and conjecture from someone who doesn't actually have the background necessary to establish what is or is not legal (or what is and is not a violation of IGN rules). Regardless, what is and is not legal in the context of reusing NWN Custom content is not something that is going to be answered in this forum. Many other threads have tried and failed. That's why I haven't wasted my time talking at all about the legal issues in this thread. That's completely pointless.

Instead, my posts have specifically addressed the completely separate topic of what is appropriate according to community etiquette. It may be perfectly legal to completely disregard an author's wishes, but you can rest assured that NWVault staff will delete anything they find to be questionable, and you can also rest assured that some NWN community members will respond in a negative way if someone uploads someone else's work contrary to the author's wishes.

At this point it should be very clear to the OP that re-uploading someone else's work is at best a controversial issue that could potentially upset people. Those people include the original author and the NWVault staff. Some of the poor advice posted above completely failed to mention these very real concerns. Hopefully now we all have a more nuanced understanding of what is obviously a much more complicated issue.

You're certainly welcome to say that you, personally, do not care at all about the concerns I have raised here. Good for you. However, there is a big difference between choosing to ignore the risks and not being aware of the risks.  The things I mentioned are quite real concerns, and anyone considering uploading someone else's work deserves to at least be made aware of them.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Invisig0th, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Invisig0th]

               

Birdman076 wrote...
So your saying the vault is immune to any kind of database corruption, dos attack, hacking, hardware issue, software issues, human fallibility, etc that could theoretically make submissions disappear?

So you're saying that the people over at NWVault aren't smart enough to keep simple, periodic backups of their content so that they can restore lost data in the extremely unlikely event that one of those things happens and blows away a submission? Pardon me if I'm skeptical.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Invisig0th, 20 décembre 2010 - 03:01 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               Once one places anything into the public domain, regardless of the effort gone into the design, it becomes part of the public's domain.  At that point there is no longer any legal ownership and that fact can be easily tested by an attempted litigation to prove damages.  Lotsa luck with that suit.  Hope you have spare funds earmarked for frivolous ventures, if so.

The Vault is essentially working under the honor system where subscribers are presented with a template of an actual legal process but has no true legal basis yet reads with legalese.  The site owner, i.e. the god, has the arbitrary power to delete information couched by a set of contrived guidelines.  This may or may not coincide with the general preference or consensus of the community, but that exercise is that person's/those persons' self-defined managerial function.

The clouded issue with content ownership occurs when those who submit their work for public consumption presume they retain some sort of copyright protection.  This is simply not true.  Depending on one's perspective, the Vault contains NO original content since it is all based on the original engine, toolset and database.  And, in that case, all custom content is defying standard copyright laws. The fact that the original owners (Bioware/Atari) chose to set up a EULA to redefine plagiarism as far as their product is concerned doesn't hide what the actual activity involves... copying a database or files, making modifications (ideally!) and then providing public access to the "new" content. 

Should the Vault policy seem too arbitary or biased it is a simple alternative to provide access by another means, another site. And in that case, once again, only the original providers have any legal claim or copyright ownership.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par HipMaestro, 20 décembre 2010 - 04:02 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jackal_GB]

               Invisigoth, as you seem to be telling us how the staff at NW Vault would feel and act, why don't you contact the administrators and get them to post an accurate account of their postition on the discussion.
That way we can end the discussion and I don't have to read any more opinionated jabs about my "poor" advice and "disservice" to the community.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jackal_GB, 21 décembre 2010 - 12:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Invisig0th]

               If you have questions about what is and is not policy on NWVault, feel free to ask them. In the past, they have indeed removed re-uploaded work at the original author's request. The fact that you are unaware of this fact is your problem, not mine.

Telling someone to upload anyone else's work without also warning them of the possible negative repercussions of doing so is obviously irresponsible. You have made it clear that you yourself have no problem with completely disregarding the wishes of the people who actually make this content, but not everyone in the NWN community shares your rather extreme views on that.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Invisig0th, 21 décembre 2010 - 01:44 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jackal_GB]

               

Invisig0th wrote...

If you have questions about what is and is not policy on NWVault, feel free to ask them. In the past, they have indeed removed re-uploaded work at the original author's request. The fact that you are unaware of this fact is your problem, not mine.

Telling someone to upload anyone else's work without warning them of the possible fallout of doing so is irresponsible. Sorry if that upsets you, but it's still irresponsible. Maybe you prefer to completely disregard the wishes of the people who actually make this content, but clearly not everyone in the NWN community shares your views on that.

Being a member of the NW Vault for more than six years and of Hall of Fame status, I am very familiar with what goes on with the Vault.

As Kalbaern has already stated, The Vault has encouraged members to locate and upload files deleted by the original authors. I for one did exactly that. But, unlike the picture you want everyone to perceive of how the NW Vault should operate, I was not scolded or banned from the site for doing so. In fact my name appeared on the Home page of the NW vault, with the uploaded submission and a "THANK YOU" from the administrator. Doesn't sound like I did anything legally or ethically wrong to me.

Yes, indeed things do get removed by the staff and in many cases rightly so. If it infringes on the authors wishes, it should be removed. Your arguement in this thread is based on the wishes of an anonymous content creator of an 8 year prefab area. The OP has already stated no explicit wishes were attached to the file. In fact the OP submitted the entry as author "unknown" because no authors name was attached.

I did not tell anyone to upload any files. I left it up to the OP to decide whether the community could benefit from it, but credit the author if he did. I am all for more qualtiy content on the Vault. I also posted previously, the original author could have it removed from the Vault.

For those following this thread go type "Invisigoth" into the NW Vault Search just for the heck of it, see what you come up with.

For a guy who points fingers and speaks for the NWN and Vault communities you sure don't have much to back it up. '>

 
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Jackal_GB, 21 décembre 2010 - 03:48 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Androrc]

               

Invisig0th wrote...

If you have questions about what is and is not policy on NWVault, feel free to ask them. In the past, they have indeed removed re-uploaded work at the original author's request. The fact that you are unaware of this fact is your problem, not mine.

Telling someone to upload anyone else's work without also warning them of the possible negative repercussions of doing so is obviously irresponsible. You have made it clear that you yourself have no problem with completely disregarding the wishes of the people who actually make this content, but not everyone in the NWN community shares your rather extreme views on that.

His views are extreme? Yours, if put in practice as you express them, would leave players and builders very little freedom of use in regards to the custom content available. What you wish is not etiquette, although you mislabel it as that, but overbearing control of things that are publicly released. Of course there are etiquette rules and guidelines to be followed, but not those that are as radical and strict as yours. You seem to only take into consideration the wants and needs of custom content makers, without caring for the interest of the community at large. Even though you try to paint others as extremists, I seriously doubt your views would find acceptance by the majority of the community.

Furthermore, the Vault has explicitly accepted the submission; that makes it quite clear that they considered it appropriate.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jackal_GB]

               Well, I'm done on this thread, I have several Cormyrian cities to build, and putzing around here isn't getting anything done.

I have enjoyed quite a rousing discussion. So thank you and I wish you all a Happy Holidays...that includes you too, Invisigoth.