Author Topic: PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.  (Read 722 times)

Legacy_Calvinthesneak

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« on: December 11, 2010, 02:05:06 pm »


               Asking cause it's come up in much debate with a few folks who seem to like dropping poly bombs.


What is the limit in terms of poly counts for various parts for nwn.


I found a list for NWN 2.


Polygon limits for Player Characters and (Humanoid)PC Companions

--One thing every content builder and blueprint maker should keep in mind: A PC or Companion should never display more than 10,000 polygons on the screen at a time. This is an absolute worst case maximum. Most PC's will average between 7k to 8k polys. This total includes head, hair, armor, items equipped in both hands, wings, tails, and any permanent VFX.

--Numbers breakdown on individual parts: All of the following values are based off of the largest OE mesh of that type, padded with 50 to 100 faces to make the number look nice. These are the maximum number of faces any of these parts should ever be, not an average.

Head: 1700 (worst case scenario - male dwarf with a full beard) This value includes facial hair. For non-dwarves, the count is much lower, but anything under 1700 is safe.

Hair/Helm: 700 - Full covering helms replace the hair, so both of these parts are allowed the same number of faces. Helms that only partially hide the hair should be less than 500 faces, and those that don't hide the hair at all should be less than 300.

Body: 2600 (worst case scenario - male bard armor) This value is an extreme maxima, and any armor with that many polys isn't designed to be used with armor attachments or belts. Most body armors range from 1200 to 1800 polygons. Female bodies tend to be around 200 polys larger than the males with the same outfit ( the +200 Cleavage and Curves modifier )

Gloves: 700 - All the stock hands use the same mesh, and that mesh has 550 faces. Any different design (long gloves, shotgun prosthetics) will change the poly count. if the count is higher than 550, the builder should make a note in his readme so blueprint makers can adjust their designs accordingly.

Boots: 700 - Most of the boots are similar and any variation mostly comes from the texture work.

Cloak/Belt: 500 - Typical cloaks and belt items should be less than 500 polys. Since the Cloak and Belt slots are the only "optional" skin mesh armor parts, they sometimes get used for accent features like aprons, body tattoos, or stackable armor variants. If the poly count of either part goes above 500, the builder needs to note this in his readme so blueprinters can take that into account.

Wings: 350

Tail: 150

Armor Attachments: 150 to 300 - These parts need to be minimalist and used only for color accent and providing minor variation to the area it hooks to. Since the parts are so small, most of the detailing should be done in the texture work.

Hand items (weapons, shields, instruments, torches, etc.): 1200 - This is the total value of a weapon's 3 parts combined. Shields and off hand items usually don't need that many faces, but, since weapons get dual-wielded, the off hand is permitted the same number as the main hand. "Common" weapons will have poly counts in the 300 to 600 range with only the special, more unique implements of destruction coming close to the 1200 limit. Keep in mind, having your entire goblin army dual-wielding 1k poly Fiery Butter Knives of Toasting +5 will still bring your machine to it's knees.
Polygon limits for placeables

Stackable singles: 300 - These are the placeables that tend to get lumped together in large amounts and stacked on top of each other.(books, crates, barrels, rocks, bushes, small plants, sacks of grain, etc.) Area designers like to use a lot of these to break up the regularity of a room or region, so they need to be low impact.

Stackable pre-grouped: 600 - Pretty much the same as the stackable singles except individual items are already grouped together and optimized somewhat. (patch of weeds, cluster of rocks, stack of crates) They're still used to build up clutter in an area so the poly count remains low.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Jez_fr

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2010, 03:38:30 pm »


               What you're asking is quite unclear. Do you ask what is the technical limit of the game? or do you ask about the "best" quality/performance "acceptable" limits like the NWN2 exemple?



Personally, by the tests I conducted myself, I find the old CEP "rules" can easily be multiplied by 10 without losing most players.

I routinely use models/textures converted from recently released games without issues, so, I can say safely NWN can take a lot. But it will depend on ones computer really.

And also, said rules shouldn't be the same for single play or multiplayer. It's like night and day.

And what's the result you want? a beautyful game or one that perform nicely with all rigs? That's an eternal universal question in game design, so basicaly there's no "good" answer (especially since we don't need to care about sales numbers, well some do but that's not something we HAVE to care about), its just a choice.



So basically, your questions need to be more specific. What do you want to achieve, and in which context?

Not sure that helps XD
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Calvinthesneak

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2010, 03:49:13 pm »


               Best/acceptable limits?  Especially with multiplayer in mind and varrying system specs for players.
               
               

               
            

Legacy__six

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2010, 04:53:51 pm »


               I've always aimed for around 100-300 for general body parts, as much as you want for the head (as long as it doesn't end up making the body look crap in comparison), maybe around 300 for wings or tails, and 1000-1500 for robes and cloaks. For a dynamic creature a total for the whole model of 2500-3500 is about right IMO. That said I think with creatures your main cause of lag might be letting too many bones affect each part in a robe (NWN in fact has a hard will-crash-if-higher limit of 4 bones per vertext).
               
               

               


                     Modifié par _six, 11 décembre 2010 - 04:55 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Jez_fr

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2010, 06:38:42 pm »


               

Calvinthesneak wrote...
Asking cause it's come up in much debate with a few folks who seem to like dropping poly bombs.


Calvin, would you mind telling what you meant with the end of your sentence please? I fail to understand the real meaning of the end of it.

Also it seems to me you're more looking for good performance PW module building rules, than poly count limits, right?
Both topics are quite different, and there's much more reasons to low module performance than polycount, pathfinding is a major one for exemple. Good building rules and a clean optimized set of hak is what would get best performance, more than an individual model polycount (within reason of course).

That said, the guidelines you found for NWN2 are low, and old (2007). I imagine there's more recent ones. These ones I suspect are taken from vanilla Obsidian's models, which were done with specific computer's power range. It's more a matter of market aimed at the moment the game is released, than true game engine capacity. So, 3 years later, you can bet safely that you can raise those guidelines without causing issues.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Calvinthesneak

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2010, 11:28:30 pm »


               I just want some idea of polycount limits for performance on a PW.

I know how to optimize. I know what bad pathfinding does. I'm not a modeller, so I really don't have the first notion of what is acceptable ranges for PC parts and weapons. As for polybombs, I'm talking about things like the horses, but I'm quite aware that's animations as much as polycounts on the model.

I was just looking for a list something like the one above for NWN 1 that is current and up to date, which would be acceptable poly count limits, for use in haks on a PW.  Six seems to have adressed it fairly well for me.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Calvinthesneak, 11 décembre 2010 - 11:30 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Jedijax

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« Reply #6 on: December 12, 2010, 01:06:51 am »


               Yes yes, and we also want the models Jez is talking about, the ones converted from recently released games. Of course, all in the spirit of better understanding the intricacies of polygon count, not because I'm a disgusting, pleading and annoying pig looking to benefit from others' work. Yes, indeed.



Maybe she could share them so we may all reach consensus, right? RIGHT?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_phantom3D

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« Reply #7 on: April 26, 2013, 01:42:58 am »


               Sorry I know this is an old thread.

When they say 10,000 poly's they mean 10,000 tri's yes? Not quads?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Master Jax

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« Reply #8 on: April 26, 2013, 06:54:00 am »


               OMG! That's me in my old account I could never log back to! The melancholia... T__T
               
               

               
            

Legacy_phantom3D

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« Reply #9 on: April 26, 2013, 10:25:48 am »


               Hello Master Jax  '<img'>

Do you happen to know the answer?  I am assuming by polygons they mean tri's since NWN uses only tri's.  But I just wanted to be absolutely sure before I jump into building figures.

cheers.


P.S.  A big thank you to all the good folk here.  I have been silently digging through the forums and the excellent content therein. NWN 1 seems like the best choice. I have many questions but will try to find the answers on my own first. '<img'>
               
               

               


                     Modifié par phantom3D, 26 avril 2013 - 09:35 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Asymmetric

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« Reply #10 on: April 26, 2013, 03:32:04 pm »


               Yes, NWN uses triangles only.

And I have you thank you for digging up this topic '<img'>: Thanks to six's post I now know why my exported robe crashes NWN ... too many friggin bones. *sigh* All that wasted time I've spent looking for a bug in neverblender ':crying:'
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Asymmetric, 26 avril 2013 - 02:32 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_phantom3D

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PolyCount limits for PC models/parts.
« Reply #11 on: April 26, 2013, 05:03:07 pm »


               Hi Asymmetric,

Thanks for the answer.

I noticed that too, a 4 bone limit per vertex. Its going to make a facial rig hard, but I think I can still get basic expressions.

I have not found any information on single skin figures, other than passing mention that it is possible.

cheers.