My First Tileset

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               I'm gonna go ahead and urge you *not* to use the tilesets that Lord Sullivan linked.  The RLCore stuff has aged pretty badly, and I'm really liking what I'm seeing here.

Plus I've got a vested personal interest, I'm working on a victorian mod of my own, and any content someone else makes is something I won't have to make myself!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Eradrain, 10 décembre 2010 - 02:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lord Sullivan]

               

Eradrain wrote...

I'm gonna go ahead and urge you *not* to use the tilesets that Lord Sullivan linked.  The RLCore stuff has aged pretty badly, and I'm really liking what I'm seeing here.

Plus I've got a vested personal interest, I'm working on a victorian mod of my own, and any content someone else makes is something I won't have to make myself!

What are you rambling about?

AND " The RLCore stuff has aged pretty badly"... what is that even suppose to mean when it comes to 3D assets?

lol seriously, what's your agenda?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy__six]

               I don't like to be one to compare the quality of very different artists' work, but I have to say from what we've seen so far I can't help but feel Renzatic is capable of producing work that might humble even Chandigar...

One thing I might suggest with regard to textures is to try and make textures that are more reuseable between differently shaped models (for instance ones that support tiling or mapping to a different scale a little more naturally). NWN's main shortcoming when it comes to rendering graphics is in the size of texture data it is happy with, and while what you've done so far isn't really pushing that, I'd say it's generally not good practise to have two large areas on the map with virtually the same image on them. I'm thinking of the side and face walls here.

Another thing that might help make it look its best in the NWN engine is to render soft shadows directly onto the texture itself. Something like a very transparent black gradient on the wall where the roof overhangs. NWN's shadows are very sharp, and having something softer on the textures can make the overall appearance look more natural.

That will not work with NWN.  It only accepts a single texture, or a single map on the objects... so, you could NOT lay the boards across the entire side, and then lay the windows on top.  The windows would have to be split into a completely seperate object.

Hmm... I'm not sure what point Bannor is making here, but since I found it confusing myself... The only real rule with mapping in NWN is to make sure that you only have one texture per object, and only one map channel per object. Other than that you can have as many seperate "shapes" on the UV map as you'd like.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _six, 10 décembre 2010 - 04:29 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               

Lord Sullivan wrote...

What are you rambling about?

AND " The RLCore stuff has aged pretty badly"... what is that even suppose to mean when it comes to 3D assets?

lol seriously, what's your agenda?

The standards for quality improve over time.  Both the skill of 3D artists and the technological expectations get better over time.  Here's an example:  1998 versus 2010.

Now.  Chandigar's RLCore stuff was great by the standards of 2005, but by modern standards it uses extremely low-res, unimpressive textures.  The model work on the exteriors is fine enough (Though the modeling of the interiors need a little sprucing up, in my opinion at least), but it would need at the very least a comprehensive reskin before it could be used in conjunction with something as decent and elaborate as Six's Wild Woods.

Which, coincidentally, I was working on.  But if the OP decides to make a Victorian tileset of his own, then that saves me the work altogether.  So that's my agenda.

But supposed  "agendas" aside, I'm not quite sure why you'd discourage someone from making something because there's an inferior attempt at the same thing on the vault already.  Some of the best forest and cave tilesets, for example, were/are being made in the last year or two, despite the fact that there were already more forests and caves to play with than just about anything else in the game.  I'm still glad the new ones got made, because they're better.

Making an add-on for RLCore would simply be putting lipstick on a pig, unless that add-on also overhauled all the textures.  And if you're going to do a complete rebuild anyway, why not just make your own tileset instead?  The OP clearly has the skill and technical knowledge not to need to rely on pre-existing models as a crutch.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Eradrain, 10 décembre 2010 - 05:41 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Lord Sullivan]

               @_six



I didn't know this was a competition of who does what better or who could do what better...



@Eradrain



Your opinion is none other then yours and yours alone.



Now I made a suggestion to the OP so he/she can know that there are options out there, now either he/she runs with it or not does not really matter to me, I'm just trying to help according

to his/her reasons given for wanting to create his/her own tileset and I clearly said that we all

in fact encourage it and you would have known have you taken the time to read my fairly tiny post.



Now how I'm I trying to discourage anyone here?



Maybe you should have stock with simply telling it like it is and said...



"I personally dislike the RLCore tileset and long for something new"



That would have been more accurate.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy__six]

               C'mon guys, we're supposed to be encouraging a new modder here, and one who looks to have serious talent to boot. What kind of community are we to insist on bickering on something that isn't even the point of the discussion.

Though for the purpose of clarity, all I meant to infer is that the stuff we're seeing here is considerably higher poly, which generally implies a higher level of detail (which looking at the quality of the work here, I'd say is the case). This is not a competition, but we'd be naive not to appreciate such differences. I must apologize if I appeared to say anything inflammatory.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _six, 10 décembre 2010 - 06:59 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               

_six wrote...

Though for the purpose of clarity, all I meant to infer is that the stuff we're seeing here is considerably higher poly, which generally implies a higher level of detail (which looking at the quality of the work here, I'd say is the case). This is not a competition, but we'd be naive not to appreciate such differences.

Which was my point, too.

But yeah.  Sorry to have hijacked your threat, Renzatic.  Keep up the great work!
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Eradrain, 10 décembre 2010 - 07:14 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               Yeah, it's the internet. Thread hijacks kinda happens sometimes. I doubt it'll ever get so far off topic people will start ignoring me outright when I ask a question, so don't fret it. '>

Wow, got alot of replies here...

RLCore Gothic stuff...

One of those is actually the one "pretty decent but limited" tileset I referred to back in my first post. Cool to know I have three to choose from now, but none of them quite fit in with the theme I had in mind. They're more..er...city Victorian, while I'm trying to go for something more backwoods and rustic. Which leads me to another quote...

Which, coincidentally, I was working on.  But if the OP decides to make a Victorian tileset of his own, then that saves me the work altogether.  So that's my agenda.

You're more than welcome to use and hack apart anything I make. Though you probably shouldn't rely on me completely, because my Victorian might be quite a bit different than what you want thematically. Once I start getting into this a little more, and learn my way around a bit better, I'll probably be willing to help throw out some models for other people's tilesets.

Okay, next up...

That will not work with NWN. It only accepts a single texture, or a single map on the objects...so, you could NOT lay the boards across the entire side, and then lay the windows on top. The windows would have to be split into a completely separate object

I think we're missing each other on the pass here, and talking about two different things. I think a visual example will help explain what I'm talking about...



These are overlapping UVs. As you can see, all sides of my awesome box are mapped to the same coordinates. One texture applied to the whole thing. I did this with the main body of my depot, where the front and back walls share the same space so I could use a larger single texture for both of them.

Now the only reason this worries me is because NWN is an older engine, and I've seen some older engines that absolutely freak right slap the hell out if each surface doesn't have it's own unique UV coordinates on the map. 

I can work around it, but to maintain the resolution I've currently got going, I'd have to hack apart my models and make more UV maps. It'd suck, but it ain't the end of the world. I guess one plus would be that I could bake in some ambient occlusion if each surface has it's own space on the texture. That'd fall in with what Six was saying about painting in shadows up above.

Anyway, gotta cut this long post short, and reply to everyone else later. I'm running out of time, and this thing is already starting to feel like I'm writing a graduate thesis.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Renzatic, 10 décembre 2010 - 09:12 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zwerkules]

               Hi Renzatic!

So that is what you meant by overlapping UVWs. You won't run into any problems with the NWN engine if you do that. You can also use a texture lots of times on one object. For example many grates and grilles are made by only having a tiny part of the grate as a texture and not the whole grate. So higher values than 1.0 for U Tile and V Tile work fine when you apply a texture. NWN1 has no problem with that, this would only possibly cause problems with NWN2.
If you use the same texture more than twice on say a wall, you can get some visible patterns, on
the other hand if you don't, you'd need very big textures for bigger walls and that could cause some lag in the game.

I like what you have done so far.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Zwerkules, 10 décembre 2010 - 10:25 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Jez_fr]

               Renzatic, welcome around =)

I really like your start and can't wait to see more. There's no tileset close to a vaguely victorian/old west snowy/frozen set so you're quite safe, if duplicate work was a concern (and apparently it's not, the better) and it will be much welcomed.



You asked about limits, here are some you might be interested in:

- Max height of a tile = 45m (not sure if its height of a model, or height of a walkable surface, not tested by me, and I don't know if it's an absolute value (ie even if you start at -20m for ex) or if it's relative)

- "safe" Max polys in 1 model is about 45k to 50k (50k crashes if I remember well), comprised of several meshes.

- "safe" Max polys in 1 mesh is about 10k

- Max size of texture is 2048 a side (can't remember who tested that)

- Texture size should be power of 2 (however some non-power of 2 textures work with the game, but it actually depending on the video card, so that would be stupid to not stick to this rule ^^)

- textures and model's name must be 16 characters max

- vertices can't be closer than 0.3 cm (or was it 0.4cm?), so beware of those little tiny details nobody will see anyway '>

- beware of the Shadows, not a limit however, still something to prepare yourself against, because the Power of the shadows over the minds is such that many lost their sanity cause of them, hehe...



These are not "holy bible" rules, more like relatively accurate and considered serious or tested warnings. Hope this helps =)

And again, welcome!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               

Jez_fr wrote...

Renzatic, welcome around =)


These are not "holy bible" rules, more like relatively accurate and considered serious or tested warnings. Hope this helps =)

Hey, glad to be here. '>

And yes, that does help tremendously. I doubt I'll be making any single object that goes anywhere near 50k tris, or use a bunch of 2048x textures, but it's nice to know just how much play I have with the engine. Basically, I have a helluva lot more room than I thought I did.

Got one more dumb question for you all. This one concerning alpha textures. Now I know how to apply them so the engine sees them. That's easy enough. My question revolves around transluscencies instead of flat out transparencies. Or more simply, can the engine see shades of grey in the alpha, or am I stuck using black and white?

The reason I'm asking is because of this..



This is a shot of just the alpha of a texture I'm working on. Notice the little haze around it?  I added some really light grey and blended it in to soften the transition a bit. You barely notice it when you have stuff around it, and it makes things look a little cleaner. Can NWN handle that?

Also that looks kinda cool by itself.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Renzatic, 11 décembre 2010 - 11:39 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Zwerkules]

               It's not used very often, but NWN can handle it. It is used in some foliage and window textures.
You'll just run into a little problem if you got two of those textures overlapping. NWN doesn't handle overlapping textures with an alpha well, even if you link them to the animation node you'll get what the peole at the DLA forum called a cookie cutter effect.
http://ccg.animecafe...a_Punch_Through
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Zwerkules, 11 décembre 2010 - 11:55 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               Good deal. '>

Guess I need to make some trees now.

Edit: Okay, if I'm following you here, this means that for something like a pine tree with multiple layers of leaf textures, only the layer closest to the camera will show through the alpha correctly, and any other alphas below that one will give you the cookie cutter effect?

That's kinda rough. I'll have to make my trees alot more sparse to keep things from looking weird.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Renzatic, 11 décembre 2010 - 12:06 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               Here's an idea - Instead of just sparse trees, why not make an underlayer of foliage without an alpha layer, and then put the 50%-opacity alpha layered stuff on top of that?  No one will really be able to see the stuff underneath it unless they look closely enough that they might as well be picking up pixels anyway, and you won't have to sacrifice on foliage density.  Because you're only working with one alpha layer, you can avoid the cookie-cutter effect, but because the nice tree cover is masking the un-alpha'd one, nobody will be able to pick up on what's underneath.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Eradrain, 11 décembre 2010 - 02:30 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy__six]

               

Renzatic wrote...

Edit: Okay, if I'm following you here, this means that for something like a pine tree with multiple layers of leaf textures, only the layer closest to the camera will show through the alpha correctly, and any other alphas below that one will give you the cookie cutter effect?

No... This one is kinda hard to explain...

NWN models are all parented to a single dummy (named the same as the model file name, without the extension) and each mesh is rendered in order of its position within the model - the ones at the top of the file first, with the ones that come after rendered after. Transparency within a model will be handled correctly if and only if the nodes are ordered correctly. For example, for a pine tree model to render correctly, each 'tier' of branches should ideally be a seperate object, linked in ascending order from the ground up.

I don't know what export solution you'll be using, but in NWMax to set up this render order all you need to do is unlink all objects, and then re-link them in the order you want to an AuroraBase object (which is what you'll use to export the model from max).

This trick works perfectly for handling transparency within most objects, and within objects of the same type. So if you have a pine tree on one tile, it should almost always render the tile behind it correctly too. However there may still be issues when it comes to objects like creatures and placeable objects. Most of the time, for objects that have a very high contrast alpha, it's probably safe to just ignore these issues, but if you have something like a window or a water plane you'll want to set it up so it can display the characters beneath it. In order to do this you can create a dummy named "a" and attach any nodes you want to be rendered last there. This means they'll be rendered even after all other models in the scene, even ones that aren't part of the same model. Try to use that sparingly though, as nodes parented to it don't seem to be rendered in any particular order, and you don't want to mess with multiple layers that way.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _six, 11 décembre 2010 - 04:56 .