My First Tileset

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               I just want to thank the OP and all who've responded so far. I've been following this topic and its convinced me to finally give making a small tileset a try. The responses here have cleared up many a thing that assorted tutorials left me scratching my head over and I thank you all again.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               

kalbaern wrote...

I just want to thank the OP and all who've responded so far. I've been following this topic and its convinced me to finally give making a small tileset a try. The responses here have cleared up many a thing that assorted tutorials left me scratching my head over and I thank you all again.

This makes me think I should start saving my screenshots somewhere more permenant. I've already had to delete a few to make room for more, and some of those shots will help people out if they come in here want answers to the same questions I've had.

Zwerkules wrote...

You should reset the Xform every time you merged, mirrored or scaled something and also after adjusting the pivot point.

Yup. Know that now. '>

Most of my stuff has been imported into Max as is. The size was already set, so I didn't have to do any extra transforming. So when I finally got to something I edited a bit more inside of Max, it threw me for a loop. Pretty easy solution, though.

And of course it wouldn't be a proper post by me if I didn't have another question. This one'll be pretty simple to solve, I think.

I've got the grass ingame, and I've managed to get rid of most of the cookie cutter effect by playing around with the parent/child order. Everything looks pretty good, save one thing. The grass is really low poly, and to maintain the illusion of it being full and thick, it can't have any shadowing on it. For example...



The top shot is the grass with all the area lighting turned off. Looks great. The bottom shot is with it turned on. Looks crap. The ambient lighting is shadowing the faces, and showing off it's low poly...ness. It gets worst the darker the ambient gets. Not good, but I figured it'd be easy to fix.

Each tuft of grass has it's own trimesh modifier. I go in, tell it to override the materal, and set the ambient to almost full white. Didn't make a difference. I still have grass with blue shaded faces. I go in and start playing with self illumination. Setting it to full on white worked, but gave me glowing grass. If I were doing a mod based in Chernobyl, that'd be about brilliant. But I ain't...so it sucks. I figured setting the self illum to dark grey might do it, but it didn't make any noticable difference. I can still see the ambient on the grass.

So, is there a way I can flat shade the grass ingame, get it so that it's effected by the diffuse, but not the ambient? If I can't, I'll have to redo the grass as a higher poly object, which means I won't be able to use as much.

Oh, and the weird thing...that little tuft in the bottom right always looks pretty good, whereas the rest don't.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Renzatic, 28 décembre 2010 - 08:12 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy__six]

               Short answer, no. You're stuck with the single lighting solution the engine provides. However if you use a different set of area lighting settings on your area in the module you should be able to come up with something pretty solid looking.

Another solution might be to, rather than using your own meshes for the grass, use the engine's built in grass generating system. This would give you a few advantages - firstly because they will blow in the wind and move away from characters much more realistically, and secondly I am under the impression the engine lights them seperately, with less contrast. Also the engine will automatically spawn grass within a certain radius, creating a simplistic level of detail. To do this you will need to set the walkmesh material ID anywhere you want grass to 3, and add something like this to your .set file...

[GRASS]
Grass=1
GrassTextureName=mygrasstexture
Density=5.0
Height=1.0
AmbientRed=1
AmbientGreen=1
AmbientBlue=1
DiffuseRed=1
DiffuseGreen=1
DiffuseBlue=1

For my Wild Woods tileset I used a mix of the two, with auto-generated grass meshes for most of the set and some extra meshes on the models themselves for reeds near water. In the toolset it's very clear that the reeds are lit harshly, but the lower level engine-created grass around them helps to hide it quite well ingame.

In fact, what I'd probably suggest you do is keep your large grass meshes as they are, but use the engine's grass system for a second set of less high grass to smooth over the transition.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _six, 28 décembre 2010 - 08:19 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               That's perfect then. I always figured I was stuck with the stock grass attached to the material in NWN, and if I wanted variety, I'd have to make my own from scratch.

So yeah, I can do exactly what you suggest. I can make the tufts higher poly to offset the shading, since I won't have to use nearly as much to achieve the same effect, and let the engine generated grass do most of the general covering.

I'll still play around with the settings and see if I can find a happy medium with the grass as is, though.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Renzatic, 28 décembre 2010 - 08:28 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               Ladies and gentlemen...

grass!

I need to make a new texture, I think. The current one ends too abruptly, and needs to be thinned out so you can make out the individual blades.

And I still haven't given up on getting my big grass in. I can currently do it, but I can't have day/night transitions the way I have to set it up.

Next up: TREES!

edit: ...just to see what would happen
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Renzatic, 28 décembre 2010 - 11:43 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               I prefer the Pac-Man grass, though maybe that's just me.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               Same here. Smiley about damn rocks on occasion. I think I'll throw him in as an easter egg or something.

So, last bit for the night. Redid the grass and got two trees in.

This is the grass

I wanted to make it look thick enough to be nice looking, but blend it into the ground without making it look too overwhelming. I still might make it a little taller, but it looks alright.

...and here's a nice mood shot showing off the trees

The branches come out softer in NWN than they do in Max. I'll probably sharpen them up sometime soon.

It's taken me almost 3 weeks to get all this ingame. Probably the longest I've spent on a single scene in a single project. But it's finally in. I think I now know enough to start the rest of the tileset in earnest.

But a few more questions before I start plugging away at this, and spare you all another shot of that damn depot..

From the light, I'm guessing those helpers can be placed wherever you want. They don't have to be right above the aurorabase, right?

What are the biggest groups I can make? Can I go, say, 6x6?

And lastly, why the hell does NWN and the editor sometime start up fine, and sometimes comes up sluggish as all get out? I think it's a CPU affinity problem, but setting it to use just one doesn't fix it completely. Sometimes it works fine, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I'll have to reset the game five times before I can play it at anything faster than 2 FPS. The only thing I've seen online about it suggested I disable compositing, and run it in XP Service Pack 2 compatibility. Which didn't do much of anything.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Renzatic, 29 décembre 2010 - 05:35 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy__six]

               That looks pretty awesome.

As for group sizes, you can go as high as you want as far as I know. It would be safe to assume that if there is a limit it will be 16x16, 32x32 or higher. However groups larger than maybe 5x5 tend to venture into the territory of single-model areas, which is fantastic if you're working on a kickass module, giving you a lot more freedom to make everything how you want it - but not so much if you're making the tileset for other folks' usage.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par _six, 29 décembre 2010 - 06:04 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               

Renzatic wrote...
<snip>
From the light, I'm guessing those helpers can be placed wherever you want. They don't have to be right above the aurorabase, right?

If you are referring to the two mainlights, then technically yes, they can be placed anywhere.  However, Bioware sort of set a standard where Mainlight 1 is set to be about 100 cm above th raised tile height, so, if your set raises a tile by 500, then your mainlight 1 would be set to 600 cm high. 

Mainlight two is typically 100 cm below that raised tile height, I think they did this to help give better edges...

anyway, they are also typically spread apart from center by about 400 cm or so.  200 east, or 200 west of center.  One each, IE ml1 would be at -200, and ml2 would be +200 from zero center. with the heights mentioned above.

If you are NOT talking about the mainlights, then you will have to clarify your question a bit more.

What are the biggest groups I can make? Can I go, say, 6x6?

6x6 is about the largest average you will find.  In fact, I think most groups are less than 5x5.  A 5x5 group, takes up a HUGE amount of space in the normal 16x16 sized areas that tend to be the practical limit on building with.  Folks can build larger areas, but it tends to cause more lag issues, and the older the pc in question, can cause crashes.

And lastly, why the hell does NWN and the editor sometime start up fine, and sometimes comes up sluggish as all get out? I think it's a CPU affinity problem, but setting it to use just one doesn't fix it completely. Sometimes it works fine, sometimes it doesn't. Sometimes I'll have to reset the game five times before I can play it at anything faster than 2 FPS. The only thing I've seen online about it suggested I disable compositing, and run it in XP Service Pack 2 compatibility. Which didn't do much of anything.

  Yeah, it can do that.  Depends on your settings, your vid card, your specific version of vid card driver, how much ram you have (although nwn really doesn't use much more than about 128 meg or so... 

THere are threads regarding adjustments that can be made to the .ini files for different things, as well as multiple threads regarding how NWN does NOT support the latest/greatest video cards/drivers etc...
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zwerkules]

               If you build anything bigger than 5x5 which also is higher poly than the standard tiles and not sliced into separate tiles yet, you'll have to adjust the 'initial heap allocation' for MaxScript, because it doesn't allocate enough memory for such a big model. At least gmax didn't.

This is also probably only necessary if you use something like the tile slicer on it which runs a MaxScript.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Michael DarkAngel]

               

Zwerkules wrote...
If you build anything bigger than 5x5 which also is higher poly than the standard tiles and not sliced into separate tiles yet, you'll have to adjust the 'initial heap allocation' for MaxScript, because it doesn't allocate enough memory for such a big model. At least gmax didn't.
This is also probably only necessary if you use something like the tile slicer on it which runs a MaxScript.

That's a good point.  But I klnow Renzatic is using NWMax Plus which due to my work with The Witcher models has had the heap and stack increased considerably.


  MDA
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               Whew damn. Got alot to reply to.

_six Wrote...

Big groups...giving you a lot more freedom to make everything how you want it - but not so much if you're making the tileset for other folks' usage.

I do have alot of specific ideas for the tileset, but I don't want to make it so specific that no one else can use it. Right now, I'm trying to find that perfect balance between the two.

Like my exteriors will be your usual various tiles, save for a couple of scenes. The plans I have for the interiors though, they're gonna be specific per building. They'll be built as single scenes taking up multiple tiles, sorta like Infinity Engine interiors. What I'll probably do is do the layouts, add in all the details, so the whole building plops into the editor complete as a single group, but keep all the detail objects like beds, tables, chairs, ect as placables so people can design their own scenarios within them.

Bannor Bloodfist wrote...

...light info

If you are NOT talking about the mainlights, then you will have to clarify your question a bit more.

Yup. That's exactly what I was talking about, and it sounds about perfect. Thanks '>

6x6 is about the largest average you will find.  In fact, I think most groups are less than 5x5.  A 5x5 group, takes up a HUGE amount of space in the normal 16x16 sized areas that tend to be the practical limit on building with.  Folks can build larger areas, but it tends to cause more lag issues, and the older the pc in question, can cause crashes.

I doubt I'll ever make anything as large as that. Just looking at it, a 4x4 tile seems more than big enough for most anything. Though it's nice to know how far I can branch out in case I want to do something absolutely flat out huge. Like a mountain pass, or any other detailed landscape.

Yeah, it can do that.  Depends on your settings, your vid card, your specific version of vid card driver, how much ram you have (although nwn really doesn't use much more than about 128 meg or so... 

THere are threads regarding adjustments that can be made to the .ini files for different things, as well as multiple threads regarding how NWN does NOT support the latest/greatest video cards/drivers etc...

Well, I don't have the latest and greatest graphics card or computer anymore, but it's fairly well up there. From all evidence, it looks like a multiple CPU problem. It's not so much choppy as it is sloooooow.  I need to remember where I found that program that lets you set affinity before you launch an application. It was handy.

Michael DarkAngel wrote...

That's a good point.  But I klnow Renzatic is using NWMax Plus which due to my work with The Witcher models has had the heap and stack increased considerably.

I'll probably never get a group or model so large I have to set it above what you've got in NWNMax, but assuming I do, is it fairly difficult to do?

You don't have to be specific here. This is just a general curiosity thing.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Renzatic, 31 décembre 2010 - 08:17 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Michael DarkAngel]

               

Renzatic wrote...
I'll probably never get a group or model so large I have to set it above what you've got in NWNMax, but assuming I do, is it fairly difficult to do?

You don't have to be specific here. This is just a general curiosity thing.

The file you will be looking to change is -->> Scripts/nwmax_plus/nwmax.ms

After the credits and changelog section you'll see

if (heapSize < 500000000) then (

    heapSize = 500000000
)

if (stackLimit < 500000000) then (

    stackLimit = 500000000
    
)

You'll want to change both heapSize and stackLimit.  Because of the sizes of some of The Witcher models (over 60,000 faces in some cases) I increased both to 500 million.  The original values were 7.5 million for heapSize and 4 million for stackLimit.

So I would say, unless you get intend to go hog-wild on a tile you should have no problems importing/exporting.  I'm not even sure the game could handle any one tile with a face count that high, let alone multiple tiles. '>

You can use a text editor to edit the .ms files.


  MDA
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Michael DarkAngel, 31 décembre 2010 - 09:32 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Guest_NWN Dragon-Blade_*]

               '> thats pretty good
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               Why, thank you.

Sorry for the long wait between posts, everyone. It was an unusually warm New Years weekend, so I got busy funnin things up with fireworks and beer. Two things that are guaranteed to make any occasion entertaining. And it being New Years, well...I couldn't resist the temptation.

MDA: So basically, you've set things up to where it's doubtful anyone will have to up the heap and stack limits. And if they do, well, it's doubtful NWN or anything but the most modern of engines will be able to run it.

But on the off chance I do have to, at least I know it's a fairly easy fix. Thanks for the help yet again. '>

And next up, my cliff. I want to get about 8 done, then I'll start again with the inevitable questions. I've already got at least two on deck, but I want to wait til I have a little more to show before I start asking them.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Renzatic, 04 janvier 2011 - 06:13 .