My First Tileset

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               Hey everybody! I'm kinda new to the whole NWN scene. I picked it up for the GOG contest, asked a few dumb questions down in the scripting forums, then went a little overboard from there. The whole online DM storyteller thing has piqued my interest.

To get down to the subject at hand, I want to tell a specific story. I want to do something a little less medieval. Something more Victorian if anything. Beyond one pretty decent but limited tileset, my options aren't exactly expansive for this particular setting. So I set off to make my own.

I started whipping together textures, and got to work on it the day before yesterday. This is what I have thus far:

users.chartertn.net/greymatt/depot_1.jpg

Nothing too terribly grand at the moment. I don't even have it in engine yet. I've been reading up on tutorials, and while they're informative, they don't tell me the one thing I really want to know: the limitations.

My first question: can each tile or model support more than one UV? Right now, to maintain a good level of detail, my little depot building has 3 1024x UV's on it. One for the walls and base, one for the roof, and one for the doors, windows, and knick-knacks. I'm kind of concerned because NWN 1 is an old engine, and I've seen old engines that would freak out from even overlapping UV's (NWN does let you overlap UV's right).

Secondly: What's the max amount of tris I can go for? I'm thinking I can go a little bit higher with this. Just looking around on the forum, I've seen some tilesets go as high as 5000 tris per tile. Just looking at the Wild Wood set shows me I have a little room to play here. Right now, my 4 tile scene is just 1846 tris. Once I'm done with the landscaping and foliage work, I'll probably be pushing 3000. Seems a decent amount for the engine, but I'd like to have something to use as a guideline here.

Thirdly: I don't have 3DSMax. I don't even like Max. It's like...the devil's modeler (it can bake real good though). Since I don't use Max, how easy will it be for me to get tiles into the game? Will I have to swallow my pride and dig up an old copy of GMax? What if I want to do characters, and maybe animate them?

Well, I think that's all the qustions I've got for now. If you want to critique my little scene, feel free. I'm always up for some healthy criticism. But if you can, at least answer one of my questions before you go on a no holds barred free for all bashing spree.

Thanks much.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               5,000 tri's per tile is a good max to shoot for.  NWN is old, the fewer the triangles it has to deal with the better.

3, 1k textures is a bit high, reduce those down a bit if you can, to 512.  The only reason I am saying that, is you claim you are not done with the tiles yet, so you will be adding additional vid ram requirements to the scene... the engine is old, I don't think we have true numerical limits for it all, but for all practical purposes, reducing vid ram usage is best, while still maintaining quality.

gMax or 3dsMax are required.  Sorry, but I just don't think there is anything else out there that has translation utilities created for it.   I may be wrong on that, but from what I have seen over the years, nearly everyone is using 3dsmax9 ($150.00 US) or gMax (free) is what everyone is doing.

Multiple UV's as you put it, are NOT allowed in this engine.  You must split your buildings into walls, roof etc.  Each with their own (or shared) texture applied to it.  Only one texture may be applied per object.  If you need more than that, you must split the object into multiple smaller objects each with their own textures, or sharing a single texture with associated UVW mapping applied.

a Tile in NWN is 10 meters by 10 meters.  Period.  If your objects are larger in either "X" or "Y" direction then you must slice them at the 10 meter mark.  Height doesn't seem to be much of an issue, but 10 meter tall buildings are very rare, even in today's world with the exception of the bigger cities.  (Yes, I know, there are arguments about that, but consider the reality of your own home, or your neighbors home, again, excluding bigger cities or apartment buildings etc).

The level of detail you have in your current textures, well, it will cause you some issues.  Doors need their own objects, with their own textures, windows too if you want them to animate lighting at night etc.  

There are dozens of tutorials out there, I personally like the stuff from Velmar AND, if you can still find them, the tutorials created by Danmar.  Velmar also has a set of scripts to plug into 3dsmax some of which will also work with gMax.  NWMax, available on the Vault is the most prominently used import/export tool for use with either 3dsmax of gmax.
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Bannor Bloodfist, 09 décembre 2010 - 10:42 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Eradrain]

               Bear in mind that, as Bannor says, there aren't actual numerical limits.  The game engine will support models with incredibly high polycounts, and 1024x textures just fine.  It's mostly a matter of high load times, and the players who still stick to NWN mostly having older computers, or at least, that's how it seems.

As for the 3D program...While Bannor's right in that NWMax is the only import utility (As far as I'm aware) and it's designed for G/3DSMax, my understanding is that there are plenty of plugins out there in the wider world that allow you to port your work from one modeling program to another.  You could do all your stuff in Maya or Wings or whatever you prefer, then just export it to 3dsm to run it through NWMax.

Lastly - Your work is looking great already, and welcome to the NWN community!  Thanks for contributing. '>
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Eradrain, 09 décembre 2010 - 02:53 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               Cool. It looks like there are some snag I gotta work through, but it looks like the engine has enough flexibility to do what I want, so long as I'm a little careful. Got a couple questions, though...

If I do need to reduce VRAM usage, what should I shoot for? Right now, my entire scene takes up 18 meg, if I assume that NWN uses the uncompressed TGA files I've got lying around. With a bit of tweaking (those ground textures could be 512x without any loss in quality), I could probably get the current tile down to 12 meg. With foliage and everything, it'll probably clock in at or under 20 meg (I'm gonna try my best to fit all the grass, bush, and tree textures for the tileset on one or two UV sheets). All in all, for my exterior sets, I'm aiming for anywhere between 64-128 for the forest, and 128-256 for the village. That struck me as a pretty feasible imposed limit that'll still allow me to work in some crisp details.

But to be on the safe side, should I try and go for lower? Could I release a low res and high res version, and still allow the two haks to be compatible with each other, so long as the textures share the same name?

Now the multiple UV things. I believe that's the way I've got it set up. I could explain it, but I think it'd be better if I just showed you a shot of what I've done.

http://users.charter...tt/UV_sheet.jpg

As you can see, each UV section corresponds to it's own model. So the depot is basically a bunch of standalone models mapped to 3 UV sheets. From what you're  telling me, this is alright. But I want to make sure before I jump in and get frustrated.

The overlapping UV's I mentioned earlier would be where I mapped the same coordinates to objects that use the same textures. The walls, for instance. And the front and back porches on my details sheet.

The 10 meter thing isn't too big a deal. Neither is the door and window issue. That'd actually help me out, since it'd free up some room on my UVs for other things I wanted to throw in.

As for the rest, I guess I'll start reading up on those tutorials you recommended, and get to learning bits and pieces of gMax.

Thanks for the compliments and help. I'll probably be back with more stupid questions later. '>



 
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Frith5]

               Where can I buy 3dsMax 9 for 150 bucks?



Welcome to NWN!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Michael DarkAngel]

               

Frith5 wrote...
Where can I buy 3dsMax 9 for 150 bucks?

When it was new you could have upgraded from about $800.  Bannor must have some good connections

@Renzatic
My only critique;

Its too clean.  The lines are too straight, corners too sharp.  It looks too perfect.

Your textures look great.


  MDA
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Michael DarkAngel, 10 décembre 2010 - 12:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Tyndrel]

               http://software-supr...op/byvendor/20/

There seem to be a number of ads on google but they all end up pointing here.  '>

Edit:  As a beginner would it be worth my while to buy this or struggle on with GMax. There is so much more support for 3DS learners but has time made it more complex to use/learn?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Tyndrel, 10 décembre 2010 - 01:13 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Calvinthesneak]

               Hmmm no soft ware shipped.  the price which is hundreds lower than anything else.  It smells a little to me.  I'd be careful
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Renzatic]

               

Michael DarkAngel wrote...

@Renzatic
My only critique;

Its too clean.  The lines are too straight, corners too sharp.  It looks too perfect.

Yeah, I kinda have to agree with you there. I could bevel out the edges and up the material smoothing a bit, but that'd require me to add a goodly bit of geometry, and I'd have to redo my UV's. I can probably make the edges look a little smoother with some texture trickery. I'll see what I can slap together.

Really, I thought the biggest problem was that the boards on the main part of the building looked too flat. I fixed that pretty quick, though. I made the boards smaller, threw on some shadows along the edges to make it look beveled, and added a gradient to make the boards look like they're rotated out a bit. It still looks a little flat on the model, but the building looks alot more realistic now.

http://users.charter...att/depot_2.jpg

edit: quick question. I added my img tags to post the picture directly to the boards, and it doesn't show up. It does when I go to edit my post, but not on the board itself. What's up there?
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Renzatic, 10 décembre 2010 - 04:08 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Calvinthesneak]

               Forums use BB code. All tags go in square brackets. IE [ img ] your image [/img]


               
               

               

                     Modifié par Calvinthesneak, 10 décembre 2010 - 07:44 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Michael DarkAngel]

               

Renzatic wrote...
Really, I thought the biggest problem was that the boards on the main part of the building looked too flat. I fixed that pretty quick, though. I made the boards smaller, threw on some shadows along the edges to make it look beveled, and added a gradient to make the boards look like they're rotated out a bit. It still looks a little flat on the model, but the building looks alot more realistic now.



edit: quick question. I added my img tags to post the picture directly to the boards, and it doesn't show up. It does when I go to edit my post, but not on the board itself. What's up there?

Definitely like the boards smaller.

Are you using Lightwave?  If so there may be working import/export scripts.  I don't know the specifics of it, what versions it will work, or how well it works.  But you can find them in the Downloads/Neverwinter Nights/Utilities and Tools section.  Look for NWN MDL Import/Export Plugin for Lightwave

Edit: Only suggestion regarding the images would be to make sure there are no spaces between your image tags and the url.


  MDA
               
               

               

                     Modifié par Michael DarkAngel, 10 décembre 2010 - 07:54 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_Calvinthesneak]

               Is it possible there are post count limits before you can post images and links Michael?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Michael DarkAngel]

               I suppose there could be.  I don't remember if I had any issues when first posting here.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lord Sullivan]

               You might want to check out these three fine tilesets before going all tileset designing rage '>

RLCore Gothic Estates 1.4

RLCore Gothic Interiors 1.41

RLCore Gothic Garden v1.1

Nothing stopping you from making custom content mind you and we all infact encourage it, but if these
tilesets can do the trick, well...

You can always add some extra tiles and/or tilegroups to these and repackage you own module specific hakpack,
just don't forget to mention the original hakpack and give credit to the original author.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist]

               

Renzatic wrote...


But to be on the safe side, should I try and go for lower? Could I release a low res and high res version, and still allow the two haks to be compatible with each other, so long as the textures share the same name?

Now the multiple UV things. I believe that's the way I've got it set up. I could explain it, but I think it'd be better if I just showed you a shot of what I've done.


As you can see, each UV section corresponds to it's own model. So the depot is basically a bunch of standalone models mapped to 3 UV sheets. From what you're  telling me, this is alright. But I want to make sure before I jump in and get frustrated.

Ok, I misunderstood what you were doing by your first typed description.

3 1024 textures, used the way you just displayed them, will work just fine, and absolutely NO NEED to reduce them.  You are already mapping bits and pieces instead of just dropping an entire texture onto the object.  Which looks pretty good for a greyscaled texture.

The overlapping UV's I mentioned earlier would be where I mapped the same coordinates to objects that use the same textures. The walls, for instance. And the front and back porches on my details sheet.

That will not work with NWN.  It only accepts a single texture, or a single map on the objects... so, you could NOT lay the boards across the entire side, and then lay the windows on top.  The windows would have to be split into a completely seperate object.

Thanks for the compliments and help. I'll probably be back with more stupid questions later. '>

You are jumping in, with an already good hold on what you are doing, and it appears you just need some tips on how the NWN engine handles things.  What you started with here, is a great start.

As others have already mentioned, Welcome to the joy of modeling for NWN.  There are still a few dozen or so artists that are actively working with creating new content.  (By artists, and new, I do NOT include those folks that just take from another game and slightly modify to fit within NWN, as that doesn't take much effort OR skill).

Anyway, WELCOME, and keep going with it.  If/when you run into trouble, leave a post here or maybe drop by RPGModding.com (link in my sig) and visit the Community Tileset Project.  We have some tutorials, complete with screen shots and detailed explanations on some of the more interesting things that can be done with tile animations.  As well as other tips, tricks etc.

Most of all, keep it fun.  If it starts wearing you down, take a break, and come back to it when you are fresh and ready for the challenges!



 
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                     Modifié par Bannor Bloodfist, 10 décembre 2010 - 09:48 .