Author Topic: How Sad  (Read 540 times)

Legacy_Jenna WSI

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« on: November 27, 2010, 03:23:50 am »


               http://www.crsponsel...or_tileset.html

I actually sighed while reading this, because the tileset is so amazing. I wonder if they'd allow someone to cobble it into a vault release.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Eradrain

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« Reply #1 on: November 27, 2010, 03:44:35 am »


               Various people from Project Q have already contacted him about the tileset.  I'm not sure, but I think he said they could have it, but never sent it over.  I could totally be wrong though, don't quote me on that.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Bannor Bloodfist

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« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2010, 07:49:51 am »


               So far, multiple folks have asked for, and been promised the in-work version, but so far, nothing has ever been delivered.  I am not sure that the person making the promises even has the original files anymore.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Pstemarie

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« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2010, 11:59:27 am »


               The only word I ever got back on this tileset when I inquired about it for NwnE was "...it's not ours [CODI's] to give..." - which came from Papermonk. His response led me to believe that the module - and tileset - may have been turned over to Bioware. Odd, considering the module wasn't completed as far as I know.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_olivier leroux

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« Reply #4 on: November 27, 2010, 12:58:05 pm »


               But if that was the case what interest would BioWare have in withholding it from the NWN community at this point in the history of the game (unless the true owner was Atari)? Besides, from what I heard CODI never signed the contract... (And if they did, how come the rest of their work is available?) I really hope whoever owns it or has a copy of it will step forward one day and donate it to the community. It looks much  too good to be forgotten.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 27 novembre 2010 - 01:00 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Jedijax

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« Reply #5 on: November 27, 2010, 07:34:39 pm »


               I think it is a redundant matter. Most probably, the original author/s aren't around anymore, and the people in possession of the tileset are conflicted by some absurd sense of morality that stops them from sharing the thing. The only other option is the tileset is actually lost, and nobody knows where it is.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Eradrain

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« Reply #6 on: November 27, 2010, 11:14:23 pm »


               It's not about Bioware/CODI refusing to share it for no reason, guys.

The decision to cut the premium module program and shelve the WIP premiums came down from the publisher, Atari, not Bioware.  Atari's legal team and the contractual stuff CODI signed going into this project are the reason nobody will ever see any of this stuff.

I read something on a forum somewhere from one of the CODI people talking about how they couldn't litigate over the issue.  I don't remember the reason, but their hands were tied, and it was indicated they would have if they could.

One of the legal problems with the Survivor mod and its art resources is that it isn't part of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting that Atari/Bioware licensed for NWN, it's part of another Wizards of the Coast IP, Planescape, which created further difficulties, on top of the premium mod program simply being canceled.

Anyway.  The NWN handle of the guy whose website the pictures are on is/was Schazzwozzer (I might've spelled it wrong, though).  He was a modeler, so it's not surprising that he would give a different answer ("Yes, you can have it") than Papermonk did (I believe he was the project lead?).

The one possible loophole I can think of is that the various art resources exist in a state before they were imported into NWN, as .3ds and .dds formats.  As far as I can imagine, Atari has no claim to these art resources before they're imported into NWN via proprietary formats like .mdl and into hak packs, so it's possible Schazz might be persuaded to part with them if the case is presented to him in that way, and if he still has them anywhere (Which is not entirely likely, given how much time has passed).

And even if that were the case, that wouldn't necessarily stop Atari from serving some litigation, whether they had a case or not.  I honestly have no idea whether anyone over there cares about NWN1 anymore, but the ex-CODI folks might not wanna take the risk.  Whether they have a case or not, whether they'd win or not, all it'd take is one guy at Atari sending a lawyer for them to have to either cease-and-desist, or pay for their own lawyer just to argue the case, and I seriously doubt any of them would wanna do that.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Eradrain, 27 novembre 2010 - 11:16 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_olivier leroux

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« Reply #7 on: November 28, 2010, 12:07:50 am »


               So can you or anyone else confirm then that CODI actually signed the contract for the Premium mod?

What about the rest of their stuff? That's not Forgotten Realms either but clearly Planescape. They even have official characters like Harys Hatchis and Fell and that still didn't stop them from donating their work to the community. Does that mean all CODI content we have wouldn't have made an appearance in the Premium mod? I can hardly believe that. When the CODI content package was released, was that before or after the team split up, before or after they started working on the Premium mod?

My guess would be that it's not so much a legal issue as a question of whether anyone actually still has the work or if it's lost (or that "absurd sense of morality" in dealing with CODI's legacy that Jedijax hinted at). But of course my guess is as good as anyone else's (or even worse '<img'>).
               
               

               


                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 28 novembre 2010 - 12:12 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Gleym

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« Reply #8 on: November 28, 2010, 12:59:47 am »


               Eh, I don't see the problem with posting it. If it's a dead project, there's no monetary gain to be gleaned from hanging on to it, or lost from sharing it. Hell, lots of people on dev. teams have shared the content from their dead projects before, knowing that the project will never see the light of day - nobody here remembers Black Isle's post-bellyup content that their once-developers shared?
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Jedijax

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« Reply #9 on: November 28, 2010, 01:13:07 am »


               Precisely my point. If it were a legal matter regarding intricacies like the Planescape-over-Forgotten-Realms dilemma, the same would have happened to all of the CODI initiative custom content, which has been around for ages. Even more, there's the example of both Darkness over Daggerford and Tyrants of the Moonsea; the authors didn't have the same issue this tileset supposedly has, and they were pretty much finished products canceled on last minute.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_Jenna WSI

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« Reply #10 on: November 28, 2010, 01:37:33 am »


               

Gleym wrote...

Eh, I don't see the problem with posting it. If it's a dead project, there's no monetary gain to be gleaned from hanging on to it, or lost from sharing it.


That's what I was going to post. Perhaps someone could contact Atari/whoever and get permission? As it's non-profit, I don't see what it would hurt.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_olivier leroux

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« Reply #11 on: November 28, 2010, 02:32:06 am »


               I don't think Atari has the tileset. '<img'>

I'd start by finding out if this tileset actually survived on anyone's harddisk and then ask them first if there would be a problem with sharing it and why. If we're not able to find this person, all other steps are futile.

BTW, this thread may hold clues for a starting point, too. It seems Estelindis knows about several attempts to contact CODI members in the past and Helekanalaith suggested he might still have the unfinished Mortuary tileset by CODI somewhere, although I never found out if that was a joke and if not, whether he actually searched and found it...
               
               

               


                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 28 novembre 2010 - 02:34 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_Eradrain

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« Reply #12 on: November 28, 2010, 07:19:09 am »


               

So can you or anyone else confirm then that CODI actually signed the contract for the Premium mod?

Yes, I can confirm that they did.  All teams who signed on to make a premium mod signed a contract before beginning development.  Even if I hadn't read it directly (And I have), it'd still be common sense.  That's how business is run.  Premium mods aren't community content, they're a business venture.

What about the rest of their stuff? That's not Forgotten Realms either but clearly Planescape.

They made that other stuff before they ever signed on to do their premium mod, as far as I know.  I don't know whether they would have used it for said project or not, I imagine they would have.

My guess would be that it's not so much a legal issue as a question of
whether anyone actually still has the work or if it's lost (or that
"absurd sense of morality" in dealing with CODI's legacy that Jedijax
hinted at).


Like I said, it's the legal issue.  This is not my opinion, it's a post I read (I think in the now-defunct DLA forums) from ex-team leaders of CODI just as it was all happening.  It's entirely possible that nobody has the stuff anymore, true, but that isn't the reason it was first withheld.  And you're right, that morality issue is absurd.  I strongly doubt anyone would've kept anything to themselves out of "conviction."

Eh, I don't see the problem with posting it. If it's a dead project,
there's no monetary gain to be gleaned from hanging on to it, or lost
from sharing it.


Morally speaking, there's no problem.  There's no money to be lost from sharing it, we'd all be very happy to have it.  But it doesn't matter.  Atari is a huge corporation, and they don't give a damn.  The entertainment industry is littered with dead projects that had developed a ton of stuff, sometimes even entirely completed projects, before the plug was pulled.  They're still all banned from seeing the light of day.  I really wouldn't get my hopes up over this tileset.

If it were a legal matter regarding intricacies like the
Planescape-over-Forgotten-Realms dilemma, the same would have happened
to all of the CODI initiative custom content, which has been around for
ages


No.  The content was made at various times, some of it before any contract was signed.  You haven't read the contract, so you don't know the nuances and particularities of the wording (Maybe some types of content were forbidden and others weren't, who knows).  And like I said, this isn't speculation; I read it directly from a CODI team leader.

That's what I was going to post. Perhaps someone could contact
Atari/whoever and get permission? As it's non-profit, I don't see what
it would hurt.


Like I said, I wouldn't get my hopes up.  Atari is already looking forward to NWN3.  Even in a world where corporations routinely don't give a damn about individual people, the videogame industry takes the cake.

Example:  A group of fans of the old King's Quest graphical adventure games was working on a remake of King's Quest not long ago.  They got the go-ahead from the owner of the intellectual property (I think it was Activision that bought out the rights to Sierra's IPs?) and made a brilliant game.  They finished it, the old story put to a completely new engine, new graphics, new music, voiceover, all made from scratch.

Then Activision shut the project down for copyright infringement.  They revoked their old permission and simply shut it down.  The team had no choice, they shelved the finished project.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par Eradrain, 28 novembre 2010 - 07:20 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy_olivier leroux

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« Reply #13 on: November 28, 2010, 02:42:58 pm »


               Thanks for the clarification, Eradrain! It wasn't all that clear before.

Just out of curiosity, what fan group and what part of King's Quest was that? Kind of strange, since other fan-made remakes  of the first three parts actually are still (or once again?) available from the creators.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par olivier leroux, 28 novembre 2010 - 03:07 .
                     
                  


            

Legacy__six

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« Reply #14 on: November 28, 2010, 03:22:40 pm »


               Just to clarify something here, all the CODI content that has been thus far released has been content that was created for their non-premium (and thus non-contract) Sigil module project. From what I gather from my dealings with various CODI members trying to get hold of the Survivor premium mod's content, everything for that project was to be made from scratch.

That said, I also was told by two CODI artists over a year ago that no contracts besides an initial non disclosure were actually signed, and was even promised a copy the Battlefield tileset which the artists involved said they wanted a short time to package up before releasing it publicly. However, this never transpired and I have received no reply to any inquiries since. A shame, really, since at the time I had put together a small team of people intent on finishing it off and fixing any issues should it have been released.
               
               

               


                     Modifié par _six, 28 novembre 2010 - 03:26 .