Author Topic: Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?  (Read 331 times)

Baaleos

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« on: November 02, 2015, 02:30:46 pm »


               

Like the title says:


Has anyone tried making anything NWN-esq in Unreal engine.


I was looking at it online and it seems to be free to download and use.


Apparently it has capabilities to handle MMO level networking - so - the question again.


Has anyone considered making a nwn style game in Unreal Engine?


 


I saw elsewhere that someone had made an MMO template for use in Unreal 4 Engine.


But think they were selling it for like 90$ a go



               
               

               
            

Legacy_-Semper-

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #1 on: November 02, 2015, 04:04:49 pm »


               

Apparently it has capabilities to handle MMO level networking - so - the question again. Has anyone considered making a nwn style game in Unreal Engine?


after subscribing to ue4 you'll get source code access which means that the engine can handle everything or nothing, only the experience of its user is the limit. though i doubt that you could create something like nwn with blueprints or pre-made templates. rewriting core parts of the engine will be needed, besides all the ton of work to create a toolset, dm mode, art assets, etc.
it's better to start from scratch than to re-wire a behemoth like unreal engine.

why do you think there never was a real successor to the nwn series?
such a project costs money. lots of money. the roi of such games heavily geared towards user created content is small compared to other triple-a investments. the interest in both games ain't that big anymore, else there would be a more lively community. i doubt that this would be enough to stem such a workload for years to come, disregarding the skill needed.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_WebShaman

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #2 on: November 02, 2015, 06:31:28 pm »


               

I am positive that it could be Kickstarted.


 


The whole world is waiting for a true successor to NWN.


 


We all know it.


 


I know that Trent from BeamDog tried to get the necessary licenses to EE it, but failed.


 


And there is some effort to re-make it, on the home-grown community side.


 


What it really needs is a full, kickstarter push.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Daopsin

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #3 on: November 06, 2015, 07:30:42 pm »


               

Yes the persistent worlds from NWN multiplayer were something special. Games like Divinity Original Sin may be offering multiplayer campaigns but I'm surprised we've not got another game since NWN offering the persistent worlds MP.


 


Sadly I think any game that does try it in the future will ruin it by including microtransactions.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #4 on: November 06, 2015, 08:51:38 pm »


               

The topic of "why isn't there another NWN?" comes up often enough that it almost deserves a stickied FAQ. :-)


IMO, the primary reason there hasn't been a real follow-on to NWN is that some of the things that NWN does well (and which make it such a fan favorite) are difficult for a developer to monetize. The Toolset that allows amateurs the ability to bring their own creations into being is a huge part of NWN's success and staying power. (People often underestimate how valuable it is to open up content creation to dedicated fans. Crowdsourcing the creation of game assets, modules, scripting, etc. is huge asset in a game's success.) But, how does the developer (Bioware or whoever) make money on that? I mean, sure, they sell some extra copies of NWN to players who want to play the fan-made content. But, the sad fact is that most gamers play the modules released by the developer and that's it. So, developing and supporting a pretty major piece of software like the Toolset can look like a serious investment with limited potential to drive sales. And, the multiplayer support in NWN is very good and PWs are a big part of the reason many of us still play, but, once again, how is the developer making money on that? The model for most MMOs is that the developer sells the game client and then makes money on the MP aspect by providing lots of content and charging for at least some of it. But, that butts heads with having a Toolset that lets dedicated players develop their own PWs and a server engine that let's others play with fan-made content for free. And, it's less viable to generate revenue by selling goodies (more powers, special items, upgraded appearances, etc.) if the Toolset allows others to provide the same things for free on fan-made PWs.


Now, one approach for a developer would be to take the MMO route and give everyone a Toolset and game server so that people can create their own worlds, but the developer also runs its own world (or several) and dedicates the resources needed to keep theirs at the cutting edge of content creation and quality. That's a big investment and the usual business thinking is that allowing your players to compete with you for subscription revenue by offering a free alternative is foolhardy. But, it might actually be smart move, since it would be an extra draw for players into the game, and the fan-created PWs would essentially serve as the "free to play" tier. The developer would have to resist the temptation to only provide crippled Toolsets and server engines to the fan module-writers and PW runners, as that would quickly poison the well. But, there could be differences, such as a fan server engine that isn't optimized to handle hundreds or thousands of players at once or deal with subscriptions and transactions. Most fans wouldn't need (or be capable of running) that sort of software anyway. But, the developer that takes this approach would have to be dedicated to providing top-tier content that compares favorably with what the fans can make. That's no easy task and the business model falls apart if players start to think they can consistently get a playing experience that's as good or better for free.


Another option (one that seems to come up here quite often) is for fans to create a new game engine and toolset, either from scratch or based on one of the available open-source game engines out there, and then give it away for free. In theory, this removes the difficult task of worrying about how the project is going to make money. But, making money is useful. It's a good thing. It draws more talented people into the project and provides a way to get things that - in practical terms - will take forever if the requirement is that they be free. And, lots of people, many of whom have skills that are in demand (read "which are not cheap") are needed to bring a project of this scale to life in a reasonable amount of time. Without money, it's difficult to get a critical mass of people with the needed skills together to create a viable development team that can get something done. And, as popular as it has become to shout "crowdfunding!" and assume that any needed funds could come from Kickstarter (or some other magical pool of money), the reality is that there is no significant revenue source simply available for cool project ideas if that project doesn't have a real business plan, benchmark goals, comprehensive strategies for meeting goals, reasonable plans for hiring people, contracting services, etc. Those things are a lot of work to come up with and are largely outside the expertise of a typical player, even those who create content. Meanwhile, even if the huge push to get a usable engine and toolset out the door is successful, that's only part of the battle. Much of the success of this sort of endeavor requires months or years of after-release support to add needed features and polish existing ones, often in ways that aren't easy to anticipate until fans start to use what's there and push its limits. Anyway, I am certainly not naysaying such an approach and I have great admiration for those who take on such daunting projects. But, high among the many reasons there hasn't been a successor to NWN is the fact that it's a tremendous undertaking.


 


 


TL;DR: For there to be a new NWN 1) There has to be a way to make some money from it and/or 2) there has to be some viable way for a non-business to accomplish a huge task with little or no funding.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MayCaesar

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #5 on: November 08, 2015, 12:25:44 am »


               

I can see quite a few ways of how the developer can profit from providing players with a decent toolset on a modern engine (UE, Frostbite, etc.). First of all, it can be the same way as the developers of NWN1/NWN2 profited: along with the toolset, the developer can provide the players with official campaign, which can later have a few sequels, each earning the company something. Same way, the developer can keep expanding the toolset by adding new assets and features and also charging for them. Usual DLC system would work fine too. Worst case scenario, the developer can charge a little for custom made module downloads and keep generating income off that, theoretically, even decades after the release. Possibilities are limitless.


 


The problem is, there doesn't seem to be much demand for such a game currently. Our NWN1/2 community is not empty, but it is relatively small. Compare it to, say, WoW community. Apparently, a WoW-like game will generate much more income than a NWN1-like game, so why make the latter?


 


As such, I think, our best hope is for someone to kickstart Neverwinter Nights 3, then we could fund it and get a niche game for us. Pillars of Eternity and Divinity: Original Sin were major successes , and Torment: Tides of Numenera looks to be going to be the next. Revamps of old RPGs seem to be in demand, and Neverwinter Nights 3 could certainly be a flagmanship of such games.


 


Or, at the very least, we can wait for Enhanced Edition of Neverwinter Nights, which would probably bring in a lot of new players/modders, and some older players/modders back as well, which, in turn, might revive the game's popularity and prompt a sequel (triquel?) creation.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #6 on: November 09, 2015, 06:05:19 am »


               


I can see quite a few ways of how the developer can profit from providing players with a decent toolset on a modern engine (UE, Frostbite, etc.). First of all, it can be the same way as the developers of NWN1/NWN2 profited: along with the toolset, the developer can provide the players with official campaign, which can later have a few sequels, each earning the company something. Same way, the developer can keep expanding the toolset by adding new assets and features and also charging for them. Usual DLC system would work fine too. Worst case scenario, the developer can charge a little for custom made module downloads and keep generating income off that, theoretically, even decades after the release. Possibilities are limitless.




 


I am not apposed to any of this and some of the ideas above are revenue-generation ideas. But, most of the things described above are not things where the developer generates revenue by providing and maintaining a powerful toolset that fans can use. Providing campaigns and downloadable modules that players buy is fine, but there doesn't have to be a fan-usable toolset for that. Plenty of games sell a game and then aftermarket content without a powerful or fan-usable toolset (and often without any toolset). But, if we want a game that allows us to bring our own module ideas to life the way NWN does, there has to be a powerful-but-fan-usable toolset. And, for a new game to have such a toolset, the developers have to be convinced that providing one will be worth their effort. I am not saying there is no way for that to happen, but the "We developers provide the toolset and then make money selling content which we also made" model isn't one of them, since it begs the obvious question, "Why don't we just make and sell the content without the toolset?"


 


(Selling toolset updates is a revenue-generating idea, but there are limits to that because people expect only to have to pay for a tool like this one time unless there are pretty major feature upgrades.)



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #7 on: November 09, 2015, 08:35:15 pm »


               

I see only three reasons on why a remake of NWN (I'd rather avoid a sequel, since nowadays what we'd get would most likely be a weird hybrid of NWN with Neverwinter, containing intrusive DRM and micro-transactions).


 


1) Making it popular once more - a new title would draw many more players than any possible (unofficial) revamp of the original game. This game needs advertising, but this alone won't do the trick - most prospective players would not be interested in trying it out given its age, but it's a different story if it's a modern remake.


 


2) Improving its graphics - this is somehow related to my previous point, but I think all of us would appreciate some better graphics for this game, not just the new players.


 


3) Lifting hardcoded limitations - I think that's the least important reason, but it would still be very appreciated. 


 


 


On the other hand, what level of compatibility with old NWN content should we expect? If there was zero compatibility, like was the case with NWN2 (besides NWScript), then we'll have to reinvent the wheel, which is not exactly desirable. On the other hand, it would be impossible to allow full compatibility, given the differences in quality between content made for the original game (like tilesets and models) and the remake.


I think this compatibility should encompass all official content. All original creature models, tilesets, skyboxes, everything. This should also extend to content added in patches, including horses, Infinite Dungeons Halaster model, etc. This would certainly be difficult, but achievable - and would at least allow to play all the old hak-free modules out of the box. That's a level of compatibility that, I think, would be a reasonable middle-ground.


 


Then I'd want the game to provide fixes for bugs still present in the 1.69... though pretty much all of the important ones have been fixed by Shadooow's patch by now.


 


That's a lot to ask for and that's why I think it won't happen. Not in a way that I, and probably many others, would find satisfying.


 


I think the real question to ask is - is there any way to bring an influx of new players to the community (and make them stay longer) assuming no NWN remake/sequel will ever be made?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Frush O'Suggill

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #8 on: November 09, 2015, 11:36:39 pm »


               

Questions like these really show the scope of what Bioware accomplished while creating NWN and the Aurora engine. They deserve a great deal of credit for the massive work and skill it took to program an engine with such complexity and accessibility, while making it seem easy enough for us to wonder why no one else has taken on a project like that since. The skill of those toolset designers cannot be overstated.


 


I don't think it's impossible for some other company to come along and make a "real" NWN style game, but it's probably ulikely that it would get WotC's sanction to be called D&D. Why would they do it? Well, money, of course. But also because they really like what they do and they like good games. Bioware used to be a company like that.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_KlatchainCoffee

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #9 on: November 09, 2015, 11:37:17 pm »


               


 


I think the real question to ask is - is there any way to bring an influx of new players to the community (and make them stay longer) assuming no NWN remake/sequel will ever be made?




 


That. 


 


I have ideas and hopes for organizing something in this direction. ':ph34r:'


               
               

               
            

Baaleos

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2015, 11:15:55 am »


               


That. 


 


I have ideas and hopes for organizing something in this direction. ':ph34r:'




 


Unfortunately I don't see nwn in its current state and price being able to rival modern new arrivals such as Fallout 4.


If nwn were to go F2P - I could see it getting a good following and maybe even integrate with steam workshop to share Toolset creations etc


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2015, 03:08:34 pm »


               


That. 


 


I have ideas and hopes for organizing something in this direction. ':ph34r:'




 


Indeed you do! How's the progress? '<img'>


 



 


 


Bioware used to be a company like that.

 


The problem is that it isn't like this anymore. I'm kind of sad that I discovered this awesome game so late, long after its prime. Well, I'm fairly young, so I don't know if I could appreciate it fully at the day of its release, or even several years after that, but still, a shame. Never got to experience the "old" BioWare.


 



 


Unfortunately I don't see nwn in its current state and price being able to rival modern new arrivals such as Fallout 4.


If nwn were to go F2P - I could see it getting a good following and maybe even integrate with steam workshop to share Toolset creations etc



 


It's obvious it will never be able to rival modern arrivals, but it would be great if we could at least stop the community from decreasing. NWN is less popular than it was even two years ago and it's sad to think our community might shrink even further.


 


I don't think there's one universal step we should take to bring NWN back to even a fraction of its former glory, but I believe it would be possible with some joint effort.


 


KlatchainCoffee's plan to recruit members on GOG is one thing. If PW builders were more eager to share their custom content, like TAD does, that would be another thing. Creating a comprehensive guide on game mechanics and sharing it everywhere possible would be yet another, given D&D rules' complexity. Then we should try to convince GOG to direct new players (for example via a link in the description) to some sort of a FAQ with info such as the closure of the master server and the game's immense moddability - since many players are probably not even aware that it's not the official content that made NWN such a great title. Yet another idea, though less realistic, would be to persuade BioWare/Atari/EA into declaring premium modules abandonware and making them officially available for everyone. If this succeeded, we could once again contact GOG and ask them to include the remaining three.


 


I think there are many possibilities... and the more we try, the higher chances of sparkling life into this classic once more.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_leo_x

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2015, 11:32:06 pm »


               

Trent Oster was investigating Unreal 4, maybe he will do it?  Part of my theory on why no one has done a new NWN is because, well, people go into game development to make games, not toolsets (in general).



               
               

               
            

Legacy_CaveGnome

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #13 on: November 11, 2015, 12:12:19 am »


               


Trent Oster was investigating Unreal 4, maybe he will do it?  Part of my theory on why no one has done a new NWN is because, well, people go into game development to make games, not toolsets (in general).





Yes, this is the case when you license an existing engine/toolset, but if you want to do something more ambitious than FPS you make your own tools in the end. Always supposed Nwn Toolset was a direct child of Bioware dev tools (may be i am wrong, just guessing).


               
               

               
            

Legacy_meaglyn

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Has anyone tried making a new Nwn in unreal engine?
« Reply #14 on: November 11, 2015, 12:40:09 am »


               

Yes, the nwn toolset is based on what the team developed to make the game in the first place. It was used internally and maybe cleaned up a bit for release. There are a couple of presentations over on gamasutra (with audio versions on gdcvault) which are interesting. This one for example.