Setting "automatically fail saves on a roll of one" from "=1" to "=0"

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

... there are a few higher level areas that require passing through areas with (by that point) lower-level spawns, and parties moan about having to waste time killing worthless mobs so as not to violate the server's kill-your-spawns rule. Fortunately, few of those areas have mobs where an auto-fail save would be catastrophic.

If the basilisk nest needs to be passed through to get from point A to point B, then it isn't a side area.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

I see no problem with side areas essentially requiring certain immunities by virtue of the encounters faced.

How?

Or to be clearer, how do you acquire immunity to the specific things we're discussing here? Something like "Mind Spell Immunity" or "Death Magic Immunity" is comprehensible -- those are "standard" properties that can be found on items or acquired from spells (though that still raises a concern about servers who have a "no immunities on items" rule...and I've seen quite a few like that).

But about what the basilisk gaze? Apparently even the item property does nothing without the spell script being modified and it'd have to be a custom item in the first place. Or how about Drown/Implosion/etc? Do people need to obtain custom items with immunity to those specific spells?

On top of that, isn't it better gameplay for it to be an option? As in you can either have a sufficient saving throw of the appropriate type ("Woo hoo I'm a cleric with amazing Will") *or* you need to obtain the immunity ("RAWR ME 8 WISDOM BARBARIAN")?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Grani]

               

Define "much higher in level." I'm talking about things like (on a level 20 world) a level 20 Sorcerer fighting a boss meant for level 20s. That boss in fact might be level 15, level 40, level 25, or whatever. Or a level 40 Sorcerer might be fighting what is technically a level 60 boss -- the actual level of the boss matters little compared to the player level the boss was intended for. If I wanted a super tough Fighter boss with 4 "legitimate" attacks per round (not counting Haste or other similar effects)...it pretty much doesn't matter if that boss is level 16 or level 60. I can adjust his stats/gear/feats to get the result I want. The only difference is for spells/abilities like Terrifying Rage where the HD of the target matters...which is very, very few.

 

Oh, I'm assuming the level of the creature corresponds somehow to its power.

 

 

No, because we're referring to bosses where the builders of a world/campaign try to make them "tough" by giving them massive saves, Improved Evasion, 30 resistance to all damage, etc. It's really bad design but it's also something I've seen in a lot of places. Often winds up with the result of hoping for 1s or spamming Horrid Wilting/Ice Storm for very little damage.

 

Fair enough, I can generally see your point. 30 resistance is not that bad if we're talking level forty, though. '> It should still be easy to overwhelm such a creature with IGMS spam.

 

 

Well, first of all, why isn't that what's supposed to happen? I could make the same argument from gear -- if I make the boss immune to Death Magic then you'll *never* kill the boss with Finger of Death, for example. And it'd make the spell useless in the way you describe.


Second of all, *not all DCs are created equal.* Bob the Necromancer started with 18 Cha, got all 10 Great Cha feats, took Epic Spell Focus in Necromancy, and is using full Charisma boosting gear for a Finger of Death DC of 43. Dan the Half-Paladin started with 16 Cha, only got six Great Cha feats due to less Sorcerer levels and taking Auto Still Spell, didn't take any Spell Focus in Necromancy, and we'll even say he still has full Charisma gear but his DC is 34. If I give a mob 33 Fortitude the mob will never die to Dan's Finger of Death but has a 45% chance of dying to Bob's Finger of Death. Which is one reason why I'd rather not just give blanket immunity in many cases.


Third, giving immunity to some of these effects isn't as simple as a generic immunity or, in the case of petrify effects, specific spell/ability immunity.


Fourth, not every effect has the same saving throw type. Finger/Dev Crit/etc attack Fort. Vorpal attacks Reflex. Circle of Death/Bodak Gaze/etc attack Will. Giving blanket Death Immunity (or Crit immunity for Dev Crit and Vorpal) lumps those all together.

 

I understand that saves range from low to high and come in all kinds of shapes and colors, as do immunities, but I personally think that in a well-balanced environment most characters and monsters will not be vulnerable to auto-fail because they'll have saves suited for DCs they are likely to encounter. And if their enemies dump feats and abilities that would give them boosts to DCs, then auto-fail is even more unlikely to matter. And if for any reason someone does have a spell/feat with a really low DC, I think it's not unfair to give them at least this 5% chance of succeeding.

 

As I already said, I think it's a much better solution to make save-or-die spells fail against enemies on a significantly higher level (again, I'm assuming their overall strength corresponds to their level) rather than disable auto-fail on natural 1.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

Or to be clearer, how do you acquire immunity to the specific things we're discussing here?

Roughly half of the base classes have access to a means of immunity to petrification. Whether it be UMDing a scroll, casting a spell, or using a class specific ability.

On top of that, isn't it better gameplay for it to be an option?

The area is an option being a side area. Do you have problems with side areas and potentially side quests involving side areas?
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

 Whether it be UMDing a scroll, casting a spell, or using a class specific ability.

 

 

cheap tactics.

 

I find it quite stupid to force everyone to use scroll/spell of shapechange and polymorph into golem so hes immune to the petrify...

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

I find it quite stupid to force everyone...

The area is an option being a side area. Do you have problems with side areas and potentially side quests involving side areas?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

 

I find it quite stupid to force everyone...

The area is an option being a side area. Do you have problems with side areas and potentially side quests involving side areas?

 

Stupid area design. Doesn't matter if its main area side area or idontknowhat area. Comparsion with the fire plane area where pc takes fire damage is completely off.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BelgarathMTH]

               

More food for thought on this topic: I just defeated Klaus in my current cleric run. It was surprisingly easy, but it had little or nothing to do with my having disabled auto-fail.

 

I examined the transcript of my battle with Klaus very carefully. I was using a level 14 cleric with Animal (cat's grace one of many strategies to achieve my AC 38, and an air elemental cast as the level 8 version rather than the level 7 version) and Good (stoneskins on myself, Red Tiger, and air elemental) domains, (roleplayed as a cleric of Chauntea, just so that domain combo would be legal).

 

My henchman, as mentioned, was Red Tiger.

 

I had Red Tiger and myself buffed to the nines, of course, as all clerics do, and the shorter duration ones, such as Spell Resistance, Freedom, and True Sight, were cast using the Extend Spell feat.

 

One of the insights that I got from studying the transcript of the battle was that there seems to be kind of an arms race between dungeon masters and "clericzillas". I thought that the DC's of Klauth's spells and breath weapon were far too low for an ancient dragon.

 

He was scripted to do nothing much but use his breath weapon interspersed with spells. I had used the "dead dragon sphere" to start the battle with Klauth at "badly wounded", but I'm not sure that really made much difference in the outcome. I think he would have been far more dangerous if he'd been using his claw/claw/bite physical attacks instead of relying upon his spells and breath. That would have really put my AC 38 and healing potions and spells to the test.

 

During this battle, he cast his breath weapon (interpreted as "Fire Storm") repeatedly. Once I resisted it completely through the Spell Resistance spell. The other times, he quickly battered down my Elemental Resistance, but I still had my Ring of Helm ("elemental resistance") taking 15 of the damage every time. All of my saves are "through the roof" by way of a Ring of Resistance +3 and a Cloak of Fortification +3. The reflex saves against his breath were the lowest, such that I would have lost the save on rolls of 1-5 regardless of autofail on or off, but I was still making most of them.

 

I stopped swinging to cast a Heal on my air elemental once, healing 100 damage. The air elemental was taking the most damage. Red Tiger was taking a beating, but was holding up without needing me to heal him.

 

Near his end, Klauth cast two Power Word: Kills, presumably at me. I don't know if disabling autofail had anything to do with why I was still standing, but I doubt it. I had Death Ward active. The transcript didn't show that I had to make a save at all. I did take some negligible damage from those last two desperate spells before Klaus fell.

 

My point with all of this is twofold: First, Klauth's DC's for his magical attacks were far, far lower than they should have been. All of the save DC's were 15 or lower. I should think that an ancient dragon ought to have spell DC's of at least 35 or higher.

 

Second, Klauth's scripting was terrible. I probably ought to replay the OC with Tony K's AI at some point to see if he makes these super-boss encounters into what they ought to be.

 

Conclusion: Having autofail on is a very cheap and unrealistic way to create difficulty, and perhaps is a case of "DM cheese". If you want your computerized monster to be scary, give it a decent AI, and give it the save DC's that it deserves. Don't "cheat" against your players by exploiting the "automatically fail saves on a roll of one" rule. (And don't thereby encourage your players to "cheat" by exploiting the rule on their side.)

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Grani]

               

As far as I've checked in the toolset, Klauth is, for the most part, like regular ancient red dragons, but has AC of 30 instead of 39, increased HP by about 200 and different scripts attached. His spells and feats seem the same, though. Guess his weakness is mainly due to scripts, then. DC is not affected by them, however.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BelgarathMTH]

               

Thanks, Grani. I guess part of my case here is that the game DM *should* be able to set DC's to anything desired for top-tier creatures like ancient red dragons.

 

Welp, I just had to fight the battle against Klauth *again*, because for some strange, bugged reason, his head and his key disappeared from my inventory when I left my game to make my last post.

 

The second time, I didn't get any lucky critical hits and confirmation rolls from Red Tiger, so I got to see more of Klauth's spell list.

 

I also noticed that I could not hit Klauth with a roll of 19. Only with a critical hit could I even scratch him. Thank goodness I had Red Tiger with me!

 

The main thing I noticed with the second battle with Klauth (forced by bugged saves - save often, and in multiple slots!) was that he started spamming multiple Mordenkainin's Disjunctions (which did nothing to me), and then, Greater Dispelling, followed by at least three regular Dispel Magic spells.

 

The Greater Dispelling took out my air elemental (didn't know Dispel could banish summons - apparently they count as a Dispellable buff in NWN), and an alarming number of my buffs, including Death Ward (!)

 

The next two Dispel Magic magic spells took out some more buffs, but not very relevant ones (some stat boosters, this and that that Klauth didn't need to Dispel).

 

Red Tiger had finished him by about that time.

 

All he needed to do to destroy me was to open with Greater Dispel (and maybe a regular Dispel Magic for good measure) to get rid of my Death Ward, Spell Resistance, my stat boosts, and my air elemental, attack me physically for a few rounds to get my hit points down, then use his two or more Power Word: Death spells.

 

If that didn't finish me through low dice rolls, he could have just started physically attacking Red Tiger. I myself obviously was no threat at all to him unless I got very, very lucky rolling 20's, and through my buffs and healing.

 

If he had opened with his Dispels and had then concentrated his physical attacks on Red Tiger, there is no way I could have healed Red Tiger fast enough, and after he killed Red Tiger, I would have been nearly helpless to even scratch him.

 

So, again, my conclusion from these experiences fighting Klauth is that the DM controls the true difficulty of encounters by means of scripting, smart AI, appropriate DC escalation, and control of what gear is available in his or her campaign, NOT by the rule of "automatic save failures on a roll of one."

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

This is pretty much unrelated to the auto-fail issue, but I suspect that Klauth was mostly using monster special abilities instead of actual spells. That means that the maximum caster level is 15 (for the default system, Shadooow's CPP improves this, I think) and your Spell Resistance would block many such spells.  Still, even spells called as special abilities would mean that the DC for his Fire Storm should be 24, not 15. His fire breath DC should be 38, which is more than respectable, but it seems like he sometimes doesn't use that as much, preferring the spells he can use from a greater distance first. Your Death Ward would have protected you from his Power Word Kill spell (which doesn't have a save anyway).

 

TonyK's AI is generally an improvement for most situations, I don't recall if it helps bring Klaus up to snuff, though. I am a little dubious because TonyK often employs a strategy where casters (or NPCs with spell-like abilities) spend lots of time casting and, especially, casting dispels. That's a decent tactic when the caster is has several allies who are trying melee attacks, but it's a little iffy when the caster is by himself, like Klauth. However, it likely would have taken down some of your buffs, which would have been significant for a cleric.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BelgarathMTH]

               

Mr. Zork, interesting. If the "Fire Storms" I was seeing were not an implementation of his breath weapon, then he never even once used it over the two times I fought him.

 

Some of his fire abilities may have had higher than 15 DC, but I was so well-protected against the elements, I barely even took notice of any of his fire abilities against me. I noticed the second time that instead of "Fire Storm", his fire-based attacks were showing on my transcript as "Flame Strike".

 

I wonder if his Dispelling of my elemental lowered our party CR and triggered some kind of scale-down in what he could do?

 

So, again, I think Klauth is a pushover for a cleric with Red Tiger due to some bad scripting and level scaling in the game design. And, as you say, the autofail, on or off, has little or nothing to do with the outcome of the battle.

 

I think that having autofail off is just a good idea so that a player can be unaffected by weak DC spells, and DM cheese such as placement of creatures like bodaks and basilisks in order to create "gotcha" situations. That sort of thing may be fun for some DM's (who probably have a very hard time getting players to play with them), but very much not fun for the players.

 

If a player can get those saves high enough through whatever means, then there should be a reward for that against weaker creatures. An opposing DM can still exercise control over the balance of the campaign by controlling availability of gear (no "Monty Haul" treasure), and the DC's of enemy monster and caster spell attacks. "Autofail on a roll of one" does nothing productive for the storytelling and play of the game at best, and at worst, it encourages cheese and exploitation from both players and DM's.

 

(This is all in my opinion only, and only affects my own gaming. )

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_allen179gmail]

               

In Ch1 finale the Bodae's Death Gaze has a DC of 14. My Sorcerer Will save is 12 without buffs. Autofail has no bearing on this, but if I cast Protection from alignment my save is 14 and Autofail can kill me.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BelgarathMTH]

               

Allen, are you saying rolling a one doesn't kill you *unless* you cast the Protection from Evil? Or do you just mean that without the buff you die on a 1-3, and with the buff you only die on a 1, unless autofail is turned off?

 

I guess you must mean the second thing. Well, in my thinking, your sorcerer shouldn't really have to worry about death by bodak stare (or is it a wail?) because of his high will saves, and the fact that he had the good sense to cast that Protection from Evil spell against the possibility of rolling a one.

 

I know bodaks are supposed to be very dangerous, scary creatures. But I think it would make more sense to just raise the DC of their instant death attack than to use the autofail rule to make them scary.

 

There's a higher grade of bodak - "Bodak Lord" or something like that. Do they get a higher DC on their death attack?

 

Is it in the monster manual that these kinds of monsters have low DC's for their special abilities? I don't guess most DM's would have players that would let them house-rule better DC's for the monsters in exchange for removing the autofail rule, and I don't know if the NWN toolset allows the DM to alter the DC's in mods, campaigns, and pw's.

 

At least I can turn off autofail in my single player game, though, since I don't believe in it any more.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_allen179gmail]

               

Without the buff I must roll a 2 or better to make my save. With the buff, if Autofail is on a 1 will fail my save even through 14+1=15 against a DC of 14. Autofail on 1 defeats the reason to cast Protection from Alignment.