Would I be cheating if... ?

[Legacy_Mr Wuppet]

               

Would I be cheating by:

- Changing the config settings to give me maximum hit-points on level-up and preventing saving throw auto-failure on rolling a 1?

- Spawning spell scrolls that do not seem to be available from the campaign's merchant stores, so long as I reduce my gold total to reflect the value of the scroll?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MayCaesar]

               

I don't think changing config can be considered cheating in any way, since it was specifically made by developers to let players adjust their game appropriately.

 

Spawning scrolls - probably is cheating.

 

I wouldn't give too much significance to it though. Play what and how you enjoy!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               Cheating is tricky to define in a meaningful way for single-player games. Experience shows that talking about whether this or that action is "cheating" in these forums is seldom productive. IMO, it's more useful to talk about how this or that action changes the level of challenge in the game or the play experience. I would say that there is nothing wrong with tweaking the game settings so that the game mechanics suit your tastes. Those settings are there so that they can be easily changed.

But, bear in mind that the various modules (including the OCs) are probably designed with the mechanics from the default settings in mind. So, changing them, might result in a play experience that is different or less challenging than you might otherwise have.

Similarly, spawning in gear (including scrolls) that isn't otherwise readily available in the module probably means that you are playing with gear the module was not designed for you to have. In particular, having access to scrolls of spells that aren't available in shops is likely to give an advantage that will make some encounters much easier. IMO, if I am playing a rogue in the OC and I spawn in a stack of IGMS scrolls, I am making the module much easier than it should have been.

(Actually, because I usually play on the hardcore difficulty setting and because of the way UMD works under hardcore and higher settings, having access to that scroll would be pretty worthless in the OC to a toon whose only way to use it was through UMD. But, under normal and lower settings, a stack of IGMS is a game changer for a UMD toon.)

As a side note, that brings up the question about whether having a caster PC who chooses a spell (either at level-up or befure resting) that isn't available as a scroll would diminish the module's challenge. I would say it probably does, though it's a bit of a tougher call since it often makes sense that an actual caster has access to better or more complete spell magic than is available in scroll form.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mr Wuppet]

               

This is what is troubling me; because I was initially unaware which spells were introduced in the expansion packs, I have been picking them up on level-up by coincidence.  I have set the difficulty to Hardcore, and installed Tony K's AI mod and a familiar fix mod to make the game more challenging, but it's dawning on me that the XP spells were not intended to be used in the OC; some fights are still hard (e.g., Intellect Devourer), but others (e.g., Swords of Never, Desther) are made incredibly easy.

 

I think I may restart the campaign with a druid and play a sorcerer for an evil playthrough, picking only spells that were not introduced by the expansions.  Although having said that, eyeball familiars are summoned by mages a lot.  Incidentally, apart from Eltoora's sidequest in chapter 1, are there any other class-specific (or alignment-specific) quests in the OC?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               Though I brought up the issue mostly to illustrate something that most people wouldn't consider as a cheat and wouldn't likely think of in terms of nerfing module challenge, I really don't worry about things like expansion pack spells chosen on level up. A player can't be expected to keep track of which spells were introduced when. Spells that you choose on level-up are pretty legit, IMO. Bioware knew that they would be available with the expansion packs and had plenty of time to change the OC if they thought it threw things too far out of whack. If you think they are making things too easy, obviously, you can choose not to use them.

(Note: That's obviously not saying that such spells don't cause or that they couldn't cause balance issues. Just that Bioware knew what was going on and presumably could have done something about it, if they wanted to.)

I think, for the most part, playing on hardcore with TonyK's shifts things in the direction of adding to the challenge. That should compensate a bit for loss of challenge due to a legit level-up that took a spell not otherwise in the module.

Creating items with those post-OC spells (including scrolls), is something I don't do because I think it's typically best to play with the items the module makes available (though I sometimes introduce tools that reduce annoying repetition).

BTW, do you recall how taking post-OC spells during level up made that much difference with the Swords of Never or Desther? I am curious, since I don't recall it making that big of a difference for my mages. They were usually still pretty low level (level 4-7 for the Swords) at the time and didn't have IGMS, Mestil's Acid Sheath, etc. But, it has been a while since I played Chapter 1.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

What MrZork said.

 

This topic actually shows you dont want to cheat. You want to alter rules to have more enjoyable game experiences. You obviously thought about it, whether and how big advantage you will gain and whether you should compensate it or not.

 

Cheating in single player is very relative. Someone could even consider loading a savegame a cheating, and in my opinion it can really be perhaps when author of the module says it should be played without loading a savegame. But... I know it myself, its a decision whether to go through respawn lose some XP and GP and run through X areas to try again, areas youve already beaten and there is nothing there, or reload game and retry the fight again without any delay. Is it cheating? I would even say that it is, but the opinions on this varies and there is no real answer to this kind of question.

 

I think common sense is a rule of the thumb here.

 

All I can say is that if you are using CPP, the optional module rules you can modify via PC Widget Tools aren't "cheating" '> . Spawning a +20 sword with immunities to everything cheating is.

 

I had a huge debate on this subject few years ago, it will be somewhere on there forums. Maybe someone can dig up link, if you want some more thoughts I mean.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Mr Wuppet]

               

When facing the Swords of Never I think I was about level 8; after casting Haste, a few ILMS and Scintillating Sphere spells did the trick.  Didn't even need Stoneskin and I left my Henchman behind (usually more trouble than they're worth in boss fights).  Was the last encounter before leaving City Core for Helm's Hold.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_icywind1980]

               

I give nearly all my level 1 characters boots of haste, dr 5 slashing/bludgeoning/piercing resist and ring of regen +1 when I start a new game. Simply stated, play how you want. It's only cheating if you think it is.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

When facing the Swords of Never I think I was about level 8; after casting Haste, a few ILMS and Scintillating Sphere spells did the trick.  Didn't even need Stoneskin and I left my Henchman behind (usually more trouble than they're worth in boss fights).  Was the last encounter before leaving City Core for Helm's Hold.

IMO, those post-OC spells aren't giving you much of an edge there. Even ILMS isn't giving much of an advantage in that situation. Even all the ILMSes a toon could have at level 8 would be lucky to take down two of those swords and the elemental AoE spell (whether electrical or fire) would probably be more effective, as long as friendly fire weren't an issue. Or Flame Arrow if friendly fire were problem. A couple Evard's (an OC spell) would have been effective as well.

I agree that the henchies can get themselves in trouble, though I often kept my familiar with me, as much for RP as anything else. I found associate control to be especially important when I am trying to singulate the opponents, which I needed for the SoNs. My recollection is that if they swarmed me, I was in trouble unless I could bail somehow. I don't recall the fight exactly, but I am guessing I used my level 4 slots for Stoneskin and Improved Invisibility, maybe not the best choices in retrospect. Of course, nowadays, I think I would take a very different approach to that fight... ;-)
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lilura]

               

I found spells like Firebrand, ILMS/IGMS and Mestil's Acid Sheath made the OC into more of a doddle than it already is; I believe they were introduced with HotU, though I'm not exactly sure.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

I found spells like Firebrand, ILMS/IGMS and Mestil's Acid Sheath made the OC into more of a doddle than it already is; I believe they were introduced with HotU, though I'm not exactly sure.

Yeah, the OC isn't that well tuned for some of those, particularly IGMS and Mestil's. ILMS is less of a problem, IMO, since it really doesn't crank up the damage in a way that outstrips the OC spells, though it can be more useful than the OC's elemental damage spells when the opponent has elemental immunity/resistance. Firebrand is a good spell for the OC under HC rules and, within a certain level range, it isn't that much more effective than fireball, considering an empowered fireball takes up the same slot and does more damage through level 14. But, it is just a useful spell when playing MP or with associates on HC rules, just to deal with friendly fire issues.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lilura]

               

Thanks for clarifying, MrZork. I'm not sure why I favored Firebrand over Fireball then; perhaps just for the party-friendliness and increased AoE? I wasn't paying much attention because the enemies were just falling like leaves, so yeah.

 

I've enjoyed reading your NWNWiki articles, btw: highly informative and well-written - it's a great resource!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

The NWN Wiki is a great resource. Of course, though I am glad to have made a few contributions to articles here and there, I have added only a tiny fraction of what people like The Krit, WhiZard, and many, many others have.


BTW, I have read several of your player blogs (plogs? '>) of various modules and enjoyed those as well. I am sort of curious if you will take your HotU toon (or another) through one of the HotU follow-on modules, like Sands of Fate.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lilura]

               

"Plogs" indeed! - though my future focus will be more on reviews and pro-tips because plogging is time-consuming and I just don't have the spare time to allocate; besides, reviewing three or four modules/RPGs is probably gonna be more informative than just recounting one in exhaustive detail, so that's what I'm presently trying to do, starting with a multi-part review of BioWare's first entry into the genre, Baldur's Gate.


Speaking of reviews, I may have to amend my (incomplete) OC review in light of the "multi-player/DM" comment in the original campaign page on the wiki; I just feel my criticisms were a lil' harsh and narrow, being based on just the single-player mode of play.


After I'm done blathering about Baldur's Gate, I guess more coverage of NWN modules will be in order, though I'm not quite sure at this stage which ones... possibly Sands of Fate or The Lord of Terror - I'm a HUGE fan of Diablo, and love my hack n slash! '>

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Would I be cheating by:

- Changing the config settings to give me maximum hit-points on level-up and preventing saving throw auto-failure on rolling a 1?

- Spawning spell scrolls that do not seem to be available from the campaign's merchant stores, so long as I reduce my gold total to reflect the value of the scroll?

 

1. No to both.  Among other things, before that hit point option was introduced people would simply cancel the level-up process and repeat until they got the maximum possible.  It actually actually makes things fairer and many modules are tuned assuming you DO have max hit points -- otherwise the HP of the character could wildly, wildly vary even with the same classes/constitution/etc.  The auto-fail on 1 is just an idiotic design decision and there's a reason they decided to throw in an option to change it.  Keep in mind that also goes both ways -- enemies won't auto-fail either now.  No 5% chance to insta-kill them with Death Magic or Dev Crit or whatever if their save is high.

 

2, I don't think that's cheating if you're doing it to learn spells as a wizard (because you might think that you could learn those spells from scrolls and pick other ones on level-up).  If you just want to spawn in a bunch of IGMS scrolls when no store at that point of the campaign would even carry scrolls of that power, that's more questionable.

 

I think I may restart the campaign with a druid and play a sorcerer for an evil playthrough, picking only spells that were not introduced by the expansions.  Although having said that, eyeball familiars are summoned by mages a lot.  Incidentally, apart from Eltoora's sidequest in chapter 1, are there any other class-specific (or alignment-specific) quests in the OC?

 

Ultimately the OC  is going to be really easy if you have a clue with or without the new expansions spells, for what it's worth.  I don't think there's any other class-specific or alignment-specific quests in Chapter 1, at least, but there are several quests where some classes or alignments get easy/automatic access and others have to manage a persuade check.  Chapter 2 has some Druid specific stuff for sure.  Forget beyond that.

 

When facing the Swords of Never I think I was about level 8; after casting Haste, a few ILMS and Scintillating Sphere spells did the trick.  Didn't even need Stoneskin and I left my Henchman behind (usually more trouble than they're worth in boss fights).  Was the last encounter before leaving City Core for Helm's Hold.

 

Yeah, well, Fireball would have achieved the same result as Scin Sphere (unless the Swords are immune to Fire but not Electric?) and ILMS isn't game-breaking at all, Maximized Magic Missile would be 80% as good at level 9, for example.

 

I give nearly all my level 1 characters boots of haste, dr 5 slashing/bludgeoning/piercing resist and ring of regen +1 when I start a new game. Simply stated, play how you want. It's only cheating if you think it is.

 

In the context of how most people (including the OP) think of cheating, that would be cheating.  Like you said, though, play how you want -- but for people about the OP not wanting to disrupt the balance of a module, doing what you do would defeat that goal.