Author Topic: Recommended Wizard feats  (Read 1859 times)

Legacy_Mr Wuppet

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« Reply #15 on: August 15, 2015, 12:09:06 am »


               

I took people's advice and replaced Spell penetration feat with Silent spell, and took Spell focus (Evoc.) at lvl9.  Silent Dispel came in handy when a Skeleton Priest cast Silence on my mage!  I may take Spell penetration feats after lvl15, but what feats do people typically take from lvls 1-20?  If someone could explain to me the reasons as to which feats to take (and when), then that would give me something to think about.


 


In OC Ch1 finale, I came across 2 Bodaks in the courtyard, and they start off by casting Death gaze.  Because I cast Resistance, Protection from Alignment, and Owl's Wisdom, I normally beat the DC (14).  But occasionally I roll a 1 and equal the DC.  Question: Does rolling a 1 automatically result in failure?  Or did I die because the DC must be beaten, not just matched?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #16 on: August 15, 2015, 12:33:22 am »


               

1 is automatic failure on saving throws.  20 is automatic success.  The same applies to attack rolls, but not to skill rolls.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Mr Wuppet

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« Reply #17 on: August 15, 2015, 12:35:12 am »


               

EDIT: Just realised rolling a 1 results in auto-failure regarding saving throws.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #18 on: August 15, 2015, 12:35:55 am »


               


To echo what some people have said, only Evocation/Necromancy are really worth getting Spell Focus in, with *possibly* Enchantment as a third if you have feats to spare or the environment makes Evocation and/or Necromancy bad.




 


There are a few that go transmutation- just for flesh to stone- as it is a spell with almost no immunities to prevent it, and creatures that are immune can be distinguished by their appearance.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #19 on: August 15, 2015, 10:45:25 pm »


               


I took people's advice and replaced Spell penetration feat with Silent spell, and took Spell focus (Evoc.) at lvl9.


 


I may take Spell penetration feats after lvl15, but what feats do people typically take from lvls 1-20?  If someone could explain to me the reasons as to which feats to take (and when), then that would give me something to think about.


 


But occasionally I roll a 1 and equal the DC.  Question: Does rolling a 1 automatically result in failure?




 


For the record, I suggested *not* replacing Spell Penetration as a Wizard since you have four extra feats, cannot easily convert spells into Breaches on the fly, and suffer more than a Sorcerer from having a spell resisted.  Most people saying "Don't take Spell Penetration" are assuming level 31+ characters and in environments where the author doesn't bother putting higher spell resistance than 32 on enemies at that point.


 


On a Sorcerer, I usually get...


 


Silent/Still


Empower


Maximize


 


That's guaranteed.  I now have four feats left, five if human.


 


Greater Spell Focus: Evocation


Greater Spell Focus: Necromancy


 


Note that some environments do not lend themselves well to one or the other -- if everything has super high reflex then they'll make the saves with or without Evocation focus.  If everything has super high fort or death immunity then the Necromany focus is also worthless.


 


If not human, I'm out of feats (unless I skipped one or more of the above foci).  If human, I have one left.  Options remaining include...


 


Extend Spell (if resting is more limited)


Toughness (more HP)


Craft Wand/Scribe Scroll (if on a Persistent World or a campaign where XP isn't lost on crafting)


Great Fortitude/Lightning Reflexes (if one or both saving throws would benefit from being shored up)


 


Yes, by default "Auto Fail on 1" is enabled.  I say "enabled" because there's a setting in the nwnplayer.ini file which allows you to change it.  Change


 


Saving Throw Automatic Failure On 1=1


 


to


 


Saving Throw Automatic Failure On 1=0


 


It's a really stupid "feature."  "Oh hello, level 40 Mr. Ancient Red Dragon, I'm a level 5 rogue.  You don't mind if I spam some scrolls of Finger of Death on you with the plan that you have a 5% chance to instantly die each time, right?"  Remove auto-fail on 1 and never look back.  Horrid design.


 




I'll play the devil's advocate and say that Combat Casting is only bad in modules with default expertise behavior or low level range.


If Expertise does not work with spellcasting, then there's really no better combat mode for spellcasters than Defensive casting anyway.


Similarly, if a module encompasses epic levels, Combat Casting is alright just to take Improved Combat Casting.




 


I don't even see a point in getting Expertise in most modules -- unless you invest in lots of AC boosters then you're generally going to be getting hit a lot even with Expertise (assuming the enemy AB is balanced properly...and if it's not then it's so easy you don't need Expertise in the first place).


 


The problem with Combat Casting is that it literally just decreases the DC of Defensive Casting by 4.  So if you're level 4 with 9 Concentration and casting a level two spell, you'd still fail it 35% of the time Defensively Casting even with Combat Casting (55% without).  I'm not going to risk a 35% chance of failing the spell, quite frankly.  And if you're, say, a level 13 caster, you could easily have 16 base Concentration, 18+ Constitution (from 14+ base and buffs/gear), at least 1 Concentration from a helmet, and say 6 Concentration from gloves.  That's 16 + 4 + 1 + 6 = 27, which means even *without* Combat Casting you'll never fail a Defensive Casting check even with a level 9 spell (which, of course, you can't even cast yet).  And getting more Concentration than that is usually pretty easy.  Hell, Skill Focus: Concentration is 75% as good as Combat Casting during Defensive Casting and still provides benefits if you get hit.


 


I don't really usually see a point in ICC either.  At that point you can always just defensively cast if you're worried without failing and it doesn't require losing both a pre-epic and epic feat.  Main exception is an auto-stilled plate wearing caster in (Improved) Expertise.


 




As for empower vs maximize, while what you said about damage is true, it should be noted that Empower requires a lower spell slot. So it really depends on preferences/environment. Actually, there's nothing wrong with taking both empower and maximize. This way you could cast IGMS a whole freaking lot of times. '<img'>




 




I think he was pointing that empower is way better than maximize. For spells like fireball the damage is equal, for spells like negative energy burst the damage from empower is better than maximize.




 


To quote myself: "Maximize, Empower, and either Silent or Still are all really good."  Meaning you get


 


Maximize, Empower, and Silent


 


or


 


Maximize, Empower, and Still


 


For the default spell system, being able to cast IGMS four times as much is a major reason to take those feats, yes.  And while Empower is a spell slot lower, it also usually gives less of a bonus to compensate.


 


They are in fact not equal on something like Fireball -- Empowered Fireball is 52.5 while Maximized is 60.  Fireball, however (and d6 spells in general), are where the relative benefits are closest to their cost.  Like Shadow said, something like Negative Energy Burst is a joke Maximized but still good Empowered.  On the flip side, Empowering Hammer of the Gods only changes it from 22.5 to 33.75 while Maximizing it gives 40 (Empowered vs Maximized Fireball is a 14% bonus, Empowered vs Maximized HotG is a 19% bonus).  And if you were in a situation where a spell used d12s then you'd get 23% more from Maximizing compared to Empowering.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #20 on: August 15, 2015, 10:56:41 pm »


               

This is a new reply because otherwise Bioware's system tries to attribute Whizard's quote to Shadow if I try to edit it into my previous post.


 




There are a few that go transmutation- just for flesh to stone- as it is a spell with almost no immunities to prevent it, and creatures that are immune can be distinguished by their appearance.




 


There are a few problems I see with that spell.


 


1, it's a level 6 spell with a Fortitude save.  Meaning people will save more easily against it than Finger of Death, Destruction, Wail of the Banshee, Implosion, etc.  If the enemy was specifically given Death Magic immunity (to avoid it instantly dying) then a halfway competent module author will also make it immune to Flesh to Stone (for the same reason).


 


2, the most common "standard" enemies immune to Death Magic are constructs and undead.  Flesh to Stone does not work against constructs and also does not work against a good chunk of the undead.  Also, Undeath to Death is also a level 6 spell, benefits from Necromancy focus anyway, can hit multiple enemies (meaning a higher chance of one failing), can be Empowered/Maximized for more castings, and attacks Will rather than Fort which is usually weaker for most undead.


 


So except for a situation like an enemy caster who uses Shadow Shield (for Necromancy immunity (and yes, I'm aware that won't stop Implosion but this player specifically is a Wizard)) but not Spell Mantle, it's hard to find a use for the spell unless the combat design is bad.  And in that case using Bigby's Forceful Hand or IGMS will usually work just as well.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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« Reply #21 on: August 16, 2015, 06:42:29 am »


               

LOL. I have to say that I was reading a few posts and conjuring up a reply when I see that MM has covered just about every point I was thinking to make. :-) 


 


One slight amplification regarding Undeath to Death saves is that will is the primary save for the undead class. So, lots of enemy undead have a decent will save, particularly those who are also casters. Often, will saves for undead aren't worth much thought, since they are immune to mind effects anyway, but they can be an issue when casting Undeath to Death. Usually, when undead are a concern, I try to keep Undeath to Death on the books, but also have Sunburst ready, so that I can switch to a reflex save spell when needed (and, typically, to take advantage of my toon's evocation focus feats).



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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« Reply #22 on: August 16, 2015, 01:03:45 pm »


               

Ouuups



               
               

               
            

Legacy_icywind1980

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« Reply #23 on: August 17, 2015, 08:41:08 am »


               

Just a thought, but if you want to fully edit your character you could download leto and edit out the first feat for something better.


 


http://neverwinterva.../other/leto-169



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #24 on: August 18, 2015, 08:16:24 am »


               


LOL. I have to say that I was reading a few posts and conjuring up a reply when I see that MM has covered just about every point I was thinking to make. :-)




 


/tipofthehat


 




One slight amplification regarding Undeath to Death saves is that will is the primary save for the undead class.




 


While true, even a level 40 undead would only have 22 base Will when a level 20 caster can easily have a DC of 10 + 6 + 4 + 12 = 32 DC, so that's nearly a 50% chance to succeed even at half of the enemy's level.  And, in my experience, very few undead actually have the undead class.  Skeletons usually have fighter/rogue/mage/cleric classes (or whatever is appropriate), (demi) liches are mage classes, and so on.


 


Also, I can't speak for all module authors, but I suspect many/most do the same as I do and just figure out what stats we want the enemies to have...and then make that happen by any means necessary.  Which could mean higher *or* lower stats than they "should" have.  And if we're referring to Bioware's campaigns only...then undead have pitiful wills in general outside of maybe some liches.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #25 on: August 18, 2015, 02:12:11 pm »


               


If the enemy was specifically given Death Magic immunity (to avoid it instantly dying) then a halfway competent module author will also make it immune to Flesh to Stone (for the same reason).




 


While you may consider some module authors to be fairly incompetent, it is exactly because many modules give bosses immunities to IGMS, ILMS (or the equivalent in magical damage resistance), death magic, and mind-affecting, that some players have chosen the transmutation path, in addition to evocation or necromancy.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #26 on: August 18, 2015, 03:38:25 pm »


               


While you may consider some module authors to be fairly incompetent, it is exactly because many modules give bosses immunities to IGMS, ILMS (or the equivalent in magical damage resistance), death magic, and mind-affecting, that some players have chosen the transmutation path, in addition to evocation or necromancy.




 


Presumably you're saying that they forgot to give it immunity to Flesh to Stone as well?


 


What about some other stuff like Harm and Drown?


 


I mean, correct me if you're wrong, but overall you're saying "some module authors tried their best to avoid their bosses being instantly killed (or annihilated in 6 seconds by IGMS) but forgot to make them immune to Flesh to Stone (or didn't know about it or something along those lines), so in some modules you can use Flesh to Stone to instantly kill those bosses that weren't supposed to be instantly killed."



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #27 on: August 18, 2015, 05:33:36 pm »


               


Presumably you're saying that they forgot to give it immunity to Flesh to Stone as well?


 


What about some other stuff like Harm and Drown?


 


I mean, correct me if you're wrong, but overall you're saying "some module authors tried their best to avoid their bosses being instantly killed (or annihilated in 6 seconds by IGMS) but forgot to make them immune to Flesh to Stone (or didn't know about it or something along those lines), so in some modules you can use Flesh to Stone to instantly kill those bosses that weren't supposed to be instantly killed."




 


 


I am saying neglecting petrification is common even among those that try to make their bosses nigh invincible.  One reason may be that petrification is not simply prevented by spell immunity, shifter forms of basilisk and medusa require editing the scripts (or giving the boss a certain appearance) in order for the boss to be immune.  Often builders tend to go for the simpler methods when beefing up the boss- that is instead of protecting it from certain damage spells, give it 20/- damage resistance all the way around, instead of worrying about abilities that cause certain effects, instead give it immunity to mind spells and/or freedom of movement.  Petrification is the more complicated one to factor in, and it is why this vulnerability is more common place than many others.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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« Reply #28 on: August 20, 2015, 10:22:18 am »


               

[...] a level 20 caster can easily have a DC of 10 + 6 + 4 + 12 = 32 DC [...]

Hehe. I am not sure it's funnier that you describe that as "easily" or that I read that and didn't think it was unusual to describe it that way. After all, a mage can easily have a DC of 32 for his Undeath to Death, only if by "easily" we mean "starting INT at 18 (or 17, same result at level 20), maxing INT increases, capping INT bonuses at +12 with gear and buffs, and taking all (both) possible focus feats". I agree, it's totally doable and it is no mystery how to do it, but 32 is also the highest possible DC for the spell at that level - a mage who does that probably put some effort into it! ;-)
 

And if we're referring to Bioware's campaigns only...then undead have pitiful wills in general outside of maybe some liches.

I agree that the will saves of most OC undead are unimpressive. And, really, impressive saves of any type for most enemies in the OC are uncommon, similar to the generally unimpressive ACs, ABs, etc. And, for obvious reasons casters like liches, greater mummies, etc. will have better typical will saves among undead. Though, even mohrgs can make a will save now and again.

My broader point to the OP was more that there are undead that a typical mage PC will encounter where he should not be surprised that they pass the will save for Undead to Death. I haven't checked all the undead will saves for the OC, but I can think of a few undead encounters in Chapter 2 (relevant because that's where the OP is likely to hit level 11 or 12 and first have access to the spell) where the tougher undead (bosses and maybe a lieutenant or two, not the mobs) wouldn't surprise anyone with a successful save against a typical PC caster's Undeath to Death. That's not at all to imply that there aren't other ways of dealing with those guys, but I'm just saying that their will save will likely save some of them from Undeath to Death and the OP might benefit by going in expecting that.
               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #29 on: August 21, 2015, 04:54:27 am »


               


I am saying neglecting petrification is common even among those that try to make their bosses nigh invincible.




 


I would strongly object to the term "nigh invincible."  I mean, the bosses in Siege of the Heavens have immunity to all of the stuff you mentioned and more...but they're completely vulnerable (in this context meaning not resistant/immune) to all damage types.  The goal is not to make them impossible to kill, the goal is to make them impossible to kill *in three seconds or less.*  They're designed to be defeated and easily so if you act appropriately.  While I have seen some authors make enemies that do indeed seem to be an attempt to be invulnerable...most are simply trying to make sure their bosses survive at least two rounds.


 




One reason may be that petrification is not simply prevented by spell immunity, shifter forms of basilisk and medusa require editing the scripts (or giving the boss a certain appearance) in order for the boss to be immune.




 


Or make them immune to those petrification abilities specifically.  I think you can simply do it with item properties but if not can easily do it in the OnSpawn event.


 


It's entirely possible I managed to forget something in this list, but here's the OnSpawn event for Siege of the Heavens, for example:


 



   Spoiler
   


 


Of course, in a more traditional NWN campaign things would be vulnerable to far more status effects.  And frankly the only reason so many mobs are immune to Death Magic/Mind Spells is because I made them Immortal to make them immune to Dev Crit specifically -- without Dev Crit in play I'd have no objection to having the standard trash mobs be vulnerable to Death Magic/Mind Spells while elite mobs and bosses had more immunities.  It's technically possible to do something like check on each spell cast if the Immortality should be removed for a split second and the stun/paralyze/etc or death effect applied, but I didn't think it was worth the effort at the time for something that wasn't even the main focus on the module.


 




Hehe. I am not sure it's funnier that you describe that as "easily" or that I read that and didn't think it was unusual to describe it that way. After all, a mage can easily have a DC of 32 for his Undeath to Death, only if by "easily" we mean "starting INT at 18 (or 17, same result at level 20), maxing INT increases, capping INT bonuses at +12 with gear and buffs, and taking all (both) possible focus feats". I agree, it's totally doable and it is no mystery how to do it, but 32 is also the highest possible DC for the spell at that level - a mage who does that probably put some effort into it! ;-)




 


I actually meant "easily" in the sense that we're talking about a level 20 caster versus a level 40 enemy and the level 20 caster's DC is STILL much higher than the will save.  If they were equal level...


 




My broader point to the OP was more that there are undead that a typical mage PC will encounter where he should not be surprised that they pass the will save for Undead to Death. I haven't checked all the undead will saves for the OC, but I can think of a few undead encounters in Chapter 2 (relevant because that's where the OP is likely to hit level 11 or 12 and first have access to the spell) where the tougher undead (bosses and maybe a lieutenant or two, not the mobs) wouldn't surprise anyone with a successful save against a typical PC caster's Undeath to Death. That's not at all to imply that there aren't other ways of dealing with those guys, but I'm just saying that their will save will likely save some of them from Undeath to Death and the OP might benefit by going in expecting that.




 


Fair enough.  I just know the undead monks in HotU were insanely vulnerable to it still despite being, y'know, monks with high will and theoretically higher wisdom.  OC was so easy in general I didn't bother remembering many details to be frank >.>