Author Topic: Recommended Wizard feats  (Read 1860 times)

Legacy_Mr Wuppet

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Recommended Wizard feats
« on: August 13, 2015, 12:44:50 am »


               

Hi, I'm playing the OC with a human wizard (Illusionist) and have enough XP to reach level 9.  What feat should I pick here, and what others are recommended further down the line?


 


I do NOT intend to multiclass, unless someone can REALLY persuade me...  Starting stats were 8(STR)/14(DEX)/14(CON)/18(INT)/8(WIS)/10(CHA); added 2 ability points to INT since then.


 


Feats selected so far include Toughness, Skill focus (Concentration), Spell penetration, Extend spell and Empower spell.  Skillpoints-wise I have been maxing class skills Concentration and Spellcraft, and cross-class skills Appraise, Persuade and Tumble.  Got 10 points in Heal and 2 in Search as well.


 


Feats I am considering include Maximise spell, Still spell, Silent spell, Quicken spell and Greater spell penetration.  I don't see the point in taking Maximise until lvl12, and is this feat really worth it when I already have Empower?


 


Cliffs:


- What wizard feat (or other) should I take at lvl9?


- Is Maximise spell a worthy feat at all?


- Are Still and Silent spell feats useful in OC (Hardcore difficulty)?


- Is Greater spell penetration worth it?


- Should I make room for Spell focus (Illusion) or (Evocation)?


 


P.S.  Am I correct in thinking Skill focus (Conc.) is more useful than Combat casting?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_JediMindTrix

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« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2015, 02:28:53 am »


               

Spell Focus: Abjuration, then Greater Spell Focus: Abjuration.


 


As far as Multi-classing, were I in your shoes I would wait until level 17 to take a single level of Rogue, while boosting Intelligence attribute along the way, then skill-dump into Tumble (for +3 or 4 AC), 15 points into UMD (To use all items, ever), and maybe move silently and hide in case you need to dip around a corner and escape in a bad situation.


 


Do not take Silent, Still or Quicken Spell. I've never found a use for Silent or Still, anywhere, on servers or Single Player campaigns. Quicken is basically nullified by being Hasted, which you should always be casting on yourself at the start of combat, preferably extended.


 


The Spell Focus in Abjuration will make your dispels a lot more powerful, allowing whomever you have as a henchman (if you do), to pummel away more easily on your enemies.


 


Greater Spell Penetration is worth it situationally. You'll see no benefit against monsters without Spell Resistance, and I don't recall how many enemies in the OC have Spell Resistance. IIRC you can dispel the effects of a Spell Resistance Cleric spell.

 


Maximize IS definitely useful.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Mr Wuppet

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« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2015, 03:12:11 am »


               

Was taking Spell penetration a wasted feat, then?  Could I replace it using console commands?


 


So Still spells can't be cast while being held/paralysed?  Is it only useful for fighter mages who wear armour then?


 


I can see the logic of dumping skills late in a build if playing a module aimed at powerbuilds and/or characters with 15+ levels, but I've read that most people finish the OC between levels 15 and 18.  I suspect, having a pixie familiar with me a lot for disarming traps and opening locks, and a henchman (mainly for diversion, but also for carrying extra stuff), I may not even reach lvl17.  Besides, it's not that fun holding all those skillpoints and not using them until very late.


 


Don't Empowered spells do more damage / give more bonuses on average than Maximised spells?  Or does having Maximise give you more flexibility with arranging spell slots?


 


Back to your first point; Spell focus (Abjuration); are you 100% sure this feat actually improves dispel spells?  I can't see how the equation on NWNwiki is affected.  I thought dispelling was just based on caster level?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Mr Wuppet

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« Reply #3 on: August 13, 2015, 03:15:44 am »


               

I thought Spell focus only affects saving throw DCs...



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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« Reply #4 on: August 13, 2015, 06:45:23 am »


               


I thought Spell focus only affects saving throw DCs...




You are correct. Spell focus feats in abjuration will not help your dispels. They will raise the DCs of spells in that school that require a saving throw, but there aren't many of those of consequence in abjuration. Dismissal and Banishment both benefit from the feat, but those spells would likely only be useful a handful of times in the OC. In my opinion, Spell focus in abjuration would not be a good use of a feat.


 


Typically, people take spell focus in evocation to increase the average damage of many spells that allow a saving throw (Firebrand, Cone of Cold, Sunburst, Meteor Swarm, etc.) and in necromancy, to increase the effectiveness of instant death spells and necromancy spells that cause damage (typically Negative Energy Burst and Horrid Wilting) and maybe Fear for crowd control. If the module has very few creatures with immunity to mind effects, then some people like to focus in enchantment spells. IMO, the former two are better choices for the OC.


 


Spell penetration isn't necessary, but can help against some foes in the OC. There may be a few dragons with notable SR and a planar beast or two as well. Many people who are playing pure casters don't take it because their spell penetration is so high just due to high caster level at level 40. But in the OC, that isn't relevant as the PC will be level 15 to 17 when he encounters some creatures with SR in the twenties.It may still be advisable to employ breach spells to lower those opponents' SR, of course. But, the spell pen feats will allow more spells to hit if one runs low on breaches or prefers to cast extra spells while hasted instead of using breaches from scrolls. It's partly a play style thing. Some players will prefer to start every fight against a dragon (or other high SR creature) with a Mord's scroll and forget the spell pen feats. Others get some enjoyment from being able to hit those creatures under their spells' own power.


 


Maximized spells will tend to do more damage on average than empowered spells. Empowered spells can do more damage, but rarely do. In the case of spells with lots of damage dice (like Isaac's), the odds of an empowered spell doing more damage than the maximized version are very small (about 0.02% for IGMS at level 17, the first level when you would have a level 9 slot to use for a maximized IGMS). As you note, both maximize and empower allow you flexibility in where you slot your spells. That is also a reason some players take the still and silent spell feats (so that damage spells can also be put in slots one higher than their base spell level).


 


The skill focus in concentration is not a favored feat, but it is better than combat casting, which is a very low-value feat. I wouldn't take the skill focus feat (there are items that boost concentration and the better strategy for most mages is to avoid getting hit).


 


Anyway, if I were you, I would probably be leaning toward spell focus evocation or necromancy for a level 9 feat (if you decide to do both, then I prefer evocation first because you won't have any nice death spells until later, but you will have decent damage spells earlier on).


 


You can't directly replace a previously chosen feat from the console. But, you can use console commands (specifically dm_giveXP) to remove enough XP (see the level progression article to help figure out how much) to drop below the level where you chose a feat you regret and then give the same XP back so that you can relevel yourself back to where you left off, choosing the feats you want this time through. (That doesn't work for feats chosen at level 1.)


 


I hope this helps.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Mr Wuppet

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« Reply #5 on: August 13, 2015, 12:16:36 pm »


               

It does help, thank you.


 


Unfortunately, I selected Skill focus (Conc.) at lvl1 with Toughness, but that's not the end of the world.  I think I will select Silent spell at lvl9 (I am close to facing Desther, and I believe he is a cleric?  On the slim chance he casts Silence, it may be useful to have a silent Dispel ready) and Spell focus (Evoc.) at lvl10.  Maximise at lvl12, Spell focus (Illus.) and (Necro.) at lvl 15, and it's a toss-up whether I go for Arcane defense (Evoc.) and Greater spell penetration at lvl18 or lvl20.


 


Cheers!



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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« Reply #6 on: August 13, 2015, 12:47:10 pm »


               

both still and silent are very good choices early to get more damaging spells, for a regular mage who will use robe take silent of course, and use it to memorize/cast burning hands at lvl2, fireball at lvl 4 etc. very powerful


 


EDIT: dont take penetration feats in OC, especially if you go pure wiz/sorc, there wont be any enemies with SR and those few will be easy to overcome anyway, in worst case you will use dispel/breach on them first, penetration is good for spellsword mages or on PWs, rarely seen any use of it in singleplayer modules



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Mr Wuppet

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« Reply #7 on: August 13, 2015, 12:57:00 pm »


               

Does casting spells in higher slots make them more powerful?  I thought effects, saves, etc. are unaffected? i.e. the base spell is used to determine the power?


 


Or did you mean putting more damaging spells in additional slots gives you more "power"/freedom?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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« Reply #8 on: August 13, 2015, 01:55:24 pm »


               


Does casting spells in higher slots make them more powerful?  I thought effects, saves, etc. are unaffected? i.e. the base spell is used to determine the power?


 


Or did you mean putting more damaging spells in additional slots gives you more "power"/freedom?




silent/still wont make them more powerful, but you will have more of them


 


silent/still is usually my first choice at lvl 3 on a persistant worlds, in singleplayer where you mostly dont know what you will be facing the advantage isnt that high for a wizard who needs to prepare his spells in advance, but sorcerer benefits a lot from this as he can choose silent fireball at any time


               
               

               
            

Legacy_JediMindTrix

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« Reply #9 on: August 13, 2015, 03:50:57 pm »


               




I thought Spell focus only affects saving throw DCs...




You're right, I've been playing on this server for so long that changes like that slip my mind sometimes.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #10 on: August 13, 2015, 11:18:12 pm »


               


Hi, I'm playing the OC with a human wizard (Illusionist) and have enough XP to reach level 9.  What feat should I pick here, and what others are recommended further down the line?




 


To echo what some people have said, only Evocation/Necromancy are really worth getting Spell Focus in, with *possibly* Enchantment as a third if you have feats to spare or the environment makes Evocation and/or Necromancy bad.


 


Maximize, Empower, and either Silent or Still are all really good.  Silent/Still are solely for spellbook management -- lets you cast IGMS as level 7 spell for even more of them, as an example.  They're better for Sorcerers since Sorcerers can adjust on the fly but still good for Wizards.


 


As JediMindTrix has now realized, Abjuration does not affect dispels by default.


 


Spell Penetration and Greater Spell Penetration as a Wizard are actually fairly good -- you have 4 extra feats anyway, less spells per day, and inability to convert spell slots into breaches at will.  Yeah, once you hit level 31 then nothing will resist you except for high level monks or custom creatures in non-Bioware modules/worlds...but you won't even hit level 31 going through HotU.  Can suck if you're a level 11 Wizard and something with 16 SR ignores 20% of your spells.  GSP eliminates that (or changes an enemy with 20 SR from ignoring 40% down to 20%).  Catch is that it does nothing against enemies with no SR or less SR than your level and you *can* use (Lesser/Greater) Spell Breach or Mord's to reduce SR as well -- though having GSP means that Greater Spell Breach is as effective as Mord's.


 


Combat Casting is just bad -- it literally requires a special mode called Combat Casting.


 


Empower Spell adds 50% more damage while Maximize maxes the die rolls.  So if you have a spell that does 10d6 damage (like Fireball), it'll do 52.5 damage when Empowered and 60 when Maximized.  Spells with larger dice (like d8) are much better with Maximize while spells with smaller dice (d4 or less) and/or static added values are better with Empowered.


 




Spell focus (Illus.) and (Necro.) at lvl 15, and it's a toss-up whether I go for Arcane defense (Evoc.)




 


I would not pick up Spell Focus: Illusion.  Weird is basically just worse than Wail of the Banshee in several ways and no other Illusion spell really matters DC wise.  Arcane Defense is also really bad, skip it.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2015, 10:16:17 am »


               


Combat Casting is just bad -- it literally requires a special mode called Combat Casting.


 


Empower Spell adds 50% more damage while Maximize maxes the die rolls.  So if you have a spell that does 10d6 damage (like Fireball), it'll do 52.5 damage when Empowered and 60 when Maximized.  Spells with larger dice (like d8) are much better with Maximize while spells with smaller dice (d4 or less) and/or static added values are better with Empowered.


 




 


I'll play the devil's advocate and say that Combat Casting is only bad in modules with default expertise behavior or low level range.


If Expertise does not work with spellcasting, then there's really no better combat mode for spellcasters than Defensive casting anyway.


Similarly, if a module encompasses epic levels, Combat Casting is alright just to take Improved Combat Casting.


 


As for empower vs maximize, while what you said about damage is true, it should be noted that Empower requires a lower spell slot. So it really depends on preferences/environment. Actually, there's nothing wrong with taking both empower and maximize. This way you could cast IGMS a whole freaking lot of times. '<img'>



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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« Reply #12 on: August 14, 2015, 10:28:53 am »


               


As for empower vs maximize, while what you said about damage is true, it should be noted that Empower requires a lower spell slot.




I think he was pointing that empower is way better than maximize. For spells like fireball the damage is equal, for spells like negative energy burst the damage from empower is better than maximize.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_JediMindTrix

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« Reply #13 on: August 14, 2015, 10:57:34 am »


               


I'll play the devil's advocate and say that Combat Casting is only bad in modules with default expertise behavior or low level range.


If Expertise does not work with spellcasting, then there's really no better combat mode for spellcasters than Defensive casting anyway.


Similarly, if a module encompasses epic levels, Combat Casting is alright just to take Improved Combat Casting.


 


As for empower vs maximize, while what you said about damage is true, it should be noted that Empower requires a lower spell slot. So it really depends on preferences/environment. Actually, there's nothing wrong with taking both empower and maximize. This way you could cast IGMS a whole freaking lot of times. '<img'>




 


Both of those feats are terrible because in both pre-epic and post epic levels, there are always far better feats you can instead be taking.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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« Reply #14 on: August 14, 2015, 11:07:06 am »


               


Both of those feats are terrible because in both pre-epic and post epic levels, there are always far better feats you can instead be taking.




 


I argued against Combat Casting being "just bad", since it CAN be useful depending on the module, not combat casting being worse than other possibilites. Besides, the usefulness of CC/ICC increases the more the spellcaster is surrounded by enemies. It can easily save you 50+HP per spell cast, but, of course, this usefulness is also dependant on the spellcaster's AC and some other effects.


 



 


 


I think he was pointing that empower is way better than maximize. For spells like fireball the damage is equal, for spells like negative energy burst the damage from empower is better than maximize.

 


I think MM clearly said that maximize is superior due to dealing higher damage than empower in almost all cases. Thus, I replied saying that they both have their advantages and disadvantages and, in fact, can both be taken at the same time.