How Much is Too Much (NWN Modifications)?

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Dante made a comment here on a topic I've been mulling over lately and I figured I'd try to open it up to broader discussion.

 

We all have certain gameplay aspects we just don't like (mine are rest restrictions greater than 5 real life minutes and over-customization of spells and feats to the point where you're no longer playing NWN with some tweaks, but an entirely different game that shares the same game engine) and I want to know ahead of time what changes have been made. 

 

Emphasis mine.

 

I'm particularly interested since, as some of you know, I've been building and testing some stuff for a PW I'm thinking about making and I'm trying to figure out just how much to change.  Too little and many of the game's default issues remain and you potentially alienate people who are tired of those issues, too much and you potentially alienate people like Dante who want something more like "traditional" NWN.  But that doesn't necessarily mean a "sweet spot" in the middle winds up being best -- you might have to simply tailor your world to one end of the spectrum or wind up not appealing enough to anyone!

 

If you've played Siege of the Heavens or A Peremptory Summons then you're aware I'm fond of scripted boss fights that require the player to react to things happening during the encounter rather than just making an enemy that deals a lot of damage and has a lot of hit points.  This means that the boss battles last at least several minutes and sometimes have different phases where the boss does different things.  Default NWN tends to encourage the following for a mage against a single boss...

 

Maximized IGMS x10 (or however many spell slots per level you have)

Empowered IGMS x10

Silenced IGMS x10

IGMS x10

 

Or, if there's a lot of AoE in the encounter (or trash packs) you tend to get...

 

Maximized Firebrand x10

Empowered Firebrand x10

Silenced Firebrand x10

Firebrand x10

 

Saying that I don't think this is a very interesting or engaging result would be putting it politely.  Yeah, if it's one of my bosses then at least you're having to react to what the boss is doing during the fight (as opposed to literally just standing there and nuking the boss) but even then you're still spamming the same spell potentially 40+ times in a row.  And of course the melee/ranged attackers are just auto-attacking the whole time (I'm not even sure if that's better or worse -- at least they don't have to keep targeting the spells).

 

As an extreme solution I've been testing parts of what would be a complete redesign of NWN's combat system.  Same classes and general archetypes but every class would be primarily using activated abilities.  Casters have a new spell system (non-Vancian) and physical attackers have instant abilities (with cooldowns) -- and the spells/abilities of a character interact with each other to create more dynamic play.  There would also be new stats scripted into the system like Critical Strike (chance to deal extra damage with spells/abilities), Concealment (chance to avoid spells/abilities/attacks), and at least another three I already have in mind.  It would literally be a situation "where you're no longer playing NWN with some tweaks, but an entirely different game that shares the same game engine."

 

And I've also been considering a more moderate approach -- one that is still a major overhaul of NWN spells and classes but mostly tweaking values rather than overhauling the entire combat system.  The end goal is still to encourage more spell variety/balance and there would still be a minimum of one new scripted stat (that would increase your spell or auto-attack damage) but the game would generally play the same way and feature the same feats/spells.  Which means you'll still likely spam your best spell 10 times, followed by your second best spell 10 times, followed by your third best spell 10 times, etc for casters and basically do nothing but autoattack as ranged/melee attackers (except for when you need to move or switch targets during a fight).

 

I'm not sure which approach would wind up better.  The more extreme method will definitely alienate many people but many others might be interested specifically due to it being so different.  The more moderate method would be more familiar to people and maybe the combat would be "good enough"...but it still might alienate the same people who would be alienated by the more extreme method anyway (as it would still be more change than most PWs).

 

So, how much is too much for you (general you, not Dante specifically)?

 

Is there a minimum amount of modification you'd require to play somewhere?  At what point (if any) would you refuse to play on a PW due to it changing so much from default NWN?  For the two above questions, are you looking at specific things you want (not) changed, is it more sheer quantity of changes, or a mix of both?  Etc.

 

Rather curious about any perspectives people want to share on the issue.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zwerkules]

               

Simple. If it keeps you from writing a proper story and creating an immersive town, land, world, universe (however big your plans are) every little gameplay modification is too much.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               

Scripted bossfights sound super awesome, i might try one of your mods just for that.

 

But in general i would also say i play NWN for the stories, the rp and because i know the system inside out. I know the mechanics,i know which character builds work and which i like and this in return allows me to focus more on the other things. I know there are some limitations to the game, and i look for modules that diminish them. lower levels/magic, few immunity items, tweaks to spell durations/damage die, tweaks to stuff like HipS or devastating blow, i'm all fine with. (Think Aielund Saga or Forgotten Realms Cormyr PW).

 

Learning the ropes of an all new system glued to the nwn engine with some hoops and tricks? You'd have to convince me to try it. You'd be competing with newer games that come with new systems built into their core, have an active community and wikis where i can learn all i desire about their systems. I like learning new systems and finding character builds i might enjoy playing, in fact it's a huge part of my enjoyment of games. But that part of me (as opposed to the part that just plays the game and enjoys the story and rp) demands stuff like extensive forum discussions about the ins and outs of every talent and collective sources of all the little details available online.

 

Not sure how representative i am with this though...

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_leo_x]

               

It's never too much, so long as it's documented and relatively transparent*.  No one goes to the store, picks up a cool looking RPG, scans the covers, and puts it back on the shelf with a sigh because they'd have to learn some new rules.  Why should PWs be any different?  My perspective is a bit biased tho:

1. I don't think DND rules are particularly great, appropriate, or efficient for action RPGs (at least non-tactical ones); plus they're jam packed with useless cruft.

   
2. I've already created a replacement scripting engine and combat engine (and have already moved to % based / fractional critical hit system and want to move the attack roll to a more WoW/ARPG style.), so I'm quite invested in my belief that alternate rule systems are a good thing for NWN.

   
3. 
      

   I truly believe that a wider range of rules and systems would have attracted more players, more builders, and also maybe just people that wanted to cut their teeth on gamedev (and who couldn't care less about DND).   It's kind of moot now, but...

   
      

* I.e. One doesn't need to know much more than 'just click on monsters' to get started.  It can be argued that DND fails at that.

 

----

 

As for me and my server:  I feel like it was a mistake for my medium-high magic server to go the 'boost this, boost that' route.  If I had do it all over I would have taken a radical approach:

• d20s? Gone... use percentage based systems.


• A spell/feat/skill isn't valuable?  Delete it.  Maybe repurpose it later after a solid core of useful/fun things have been found...


• Item Properties?  Redo them all from scratch with an eye towards efficient randomization and more varied itemization.


• Spells?  I'd love to drop vancian magic.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ehye_khandee]

               

Friends,

Lessons from ice cream.

Some people like pistachio.

I'm not a pistachio sort myself, more of a mint-chocolate-chip person myself, but some people like pistachio.

Some ice cream vendors offer chocolate and vanilla, and they leave out a strong appeal for both the 'pistachio crowd' and 'mint-chocolate-chippers. Still, it is ICE CREAM that most people love, and flavoring of the ice cream is essentially incidental. Yes we all have favorites, and anti-favorites. Think of a module/game world like an ice cream store. In this case, it is NWN that most people love, and the details are essentially incidental. Remember that you cannot please everyone all the time. No matter what you build, some will love your work, some will be neutral, some revile it. This is life.

Build what makes you happy. Reach out to like minded gamers. Above all have fun.

 

Where the mage strategy limits come into play - I must say NWN offers a very limited sub-set of spells from D&D, at minimum, the expansion of the spell selection can reduce/eliminate this, as can the use of sophisticated AI scripting in NPCs.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Frith5]

               

In lieu of the power of a live DM who prepares scenarios ahead of time, usually with foreknowledge of his players and their tactics/likes/etc.... I think it becomes necessary for the NWN Builder to try to compensate with clever design choices. So your 'scripted battles' sound like a great method. Beyond (or perhaps it is before) actual script limitations, there are design points that can shape a battle so that simply clicking and using a barrage of the same spells over and over is neither desirable nor effective. Making the environment non-conducive to spellcasting, or at least keeping a spellcaster under threat, having line of sight issues, targeting concerns, personal safety issues (swarms of creatures in the caster's face while the powerful foe is safely across the chasm), time limitations (the place is gonna come down on their heads pretty quickly), those sorts of things can change a straight slug-fest to a more dynamic feeling battle. Having the enemy move is probably one of the best things; they don't stand their like marble and take it, but strike and fade.

I know some people don't like the D&D rules, but to me one of the things that makes those rules harder in a CRPG isn't the rules, but the lack of the balancing rules that a tabletop game has, to keep it from being only a series of attacks/moves/spells. Things like required spell components, specific prayer times, food/drink can all place limits on spells and other abilities which rather than taking away the fun help make each activity more meaningful. It sounds backward to some to have to make sure they have oil for their lantern before heading out of town to slay the ogres. Who cares about that minutiae?! But if it's pitch dark and your lantern "begins to flicker" and you realize it's gonna go out in a few more minutes of game time, -- you care. And what you do next matters a lot more than if you only have to pull out another torch that will suddenly light when you lift it up.

Anyway, to me learning new systems within a familiar game is not onerous, and if introduced a bit at a time it's almost invisible. And those kinds of changes make the game alive for me.

 

-JFK

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

If its fun for you to make the changes, make them.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tchos]

               

Werelynx advises, in Perfecting Your Module:

 

Avoid original Bioware content, substituting it with Custom Content whenever you can. (Tilesets, Monsters, NPCs, Script Systems(Death etc.)

 

With script systems being included there, this could be interpreted as changing everything you can.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_ShadowM]

               

Do what you think will makes the game fun, like others have said some will like it and some will not. Nothing appeals to everyone, well besides scripted boss battles '>. Just use your experience and do some test with friends and groups for feedback.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MrZork]

               

[...]

Default NWN tends to encourage the following for a mage against a single boss...

 

Maximized IGMS x10 (or however many spell slots per level you have)

Empowered IGMS x10

Silenced IGMS x10

IGMS x10

[...]

I agree that the game can reward that kind of play. But, ultimately, players who play mages in that way have a boring playstyle. Either that sort of play keeps them entertained and they have no reason to complain or they have none but themselves to blame when nothing is challenging. EXCEPT when a module builder assumes that everyone will play that way and surviving the module becomes nigh impossible without those tactics. "Well, this is a level 20 encounter, so the mages will have 5 maximized Flame Arrows, so my boss has to have at least 600 HP...." Then, it's the module-builder's issue for designing to accommodate an uninteresting playstyle.

 

I like the idea of scripted boss encounters. And, not just the boss himself, but it's also fun when his lieutenants and guards are doing something interesting / coordinated / etc. That can involve altering some of the AI, but it doesn't necessarily require much re-wiring of the game itself.


BTW, though I appreciate the point of your example, I think it's more realistic that bosses don't show up alone and that many of them (e.g. intelligent bosses, casters, etc.) will have things set up so that their henchmen stay near and aren't so stupid as to get pulled off one at a time until the boss is alone. They should go where he goes and possibly spawn replacements for any who wander too far from him.)

 

I am a middle-grounder when it comes to modifications. There are some things I prefer to see changed. E.g.

• Change things that are clearly bugged. I have mentioned a few such things in the past (e.g. Evard's size modifiers, the center of the AoE for Dismissal, etc.)


• Change things where that thing is of minimal value as-is, to the point where no one who knows better (and I don't just mean power gamers) uses them. For example, the Blinding Speed feat and the Tenser's Transformation spell are largely unused because of various limitations. Those are two examples that are improved with easy scripting changes, but there are plenty of feats (and some spells) that would be tougher to improve, if alterations were possible at all (e.g. make Combat Casting do something more useful).


• Change things where that thing provides ridiculous benefit for very little investment and makes it difficult to create challenging encounters for a wide variety of characters. An obvious (though not easy to address) example would be to limit the monk wisdom AC bonus to +1 or +2 AC per level of monk.

And there are some things I don't prefer to see changed. The underlying combat and spell mechanics of NWN have some serious flaws. But, it becomes difficult to change them without really losing the NWN feel of gameplay.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Simple answer. Higher Grounds PW. Thats too much. I enjoy action and hack&slash type of modules but the modifications that HG has, especially graphical changes on all abilities are too much for me to accept.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               

I really enjoy your scripted boss fights in SotH.  I'm probably not one of the target audience for your changes, as I only play single player, but part of what keeps me playing NWN 1 and 2 is that I know the game mechanics.  I don't have to relearn feats and spells and how stats work.

 

That means I could load SotH, build some Level 40 characters (for the first time) and throw them into battle straight away.  All that said, I'll echo others and say "do what you think will make it enjoyable".  Strength to your arm!  '>

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               

Not to put too fine a point on it ladies and gentlemen.. but you are not playing Neverwinter Nights.

 

You are playing Dungeons & Dragons 3.0 in a computerized format.

 

(perhaps this is what Dante is inferring ; but I would not put words in his/her mouth)

 

Mechanics of a game engine are simply the methodology to digitize a Pen and Paper rule set. Some are fantastically implemented (prestige classes, multi-classing etc add nasuem) others are ridiculously inept (circle kick?  prestige class etc add nauseum).

 

The greater the degree of customization ~ in all likelihood the further away from D&D 3.0 you move.

 

I have not been an active PW or co-op player in some time but you as builders should understand; the largest audience are those that love D & D and all its "quirks in NWN".

 

When you spend umpteen hours customizing the game you risk alienating a larger part of your audience. Especially the further it moves away from D & D. 

 

Nerfs and game balance changes have been around since NWN day 2. Some popular (resting restrictions) some not so popular (resting restrictions AGAIN!). LOL

 

The general advice here is very sound. Build what you want for love of the game; there is no way in which to please everyone.

 

But if you have changed so much that it no longer resembles D & D ; and all its quirks and goofiness - then don't expect that everyone will see what you have arrived at as "better". Their not your fans... they are fans of D&D. You are sharing your love of the game with other players and most other players will appreciate your contribution if it is essentially D & D.

 

Hope that little pearl of wisdom is helpful. :cheers:

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               

 

It's never too much, so long as it's documented and relatively transparent*.  No one goes to the store, picks up a cool looking RPG, scans the covers, and puts it back on the shelf with a sigh because they'd have to learn some new rules.  Why should PWs be any different?  My perspective is a bit biased tho:

1. I don't think DND rules are particularly great, appropriate, or efficient for action RPGs (at least non-tactical ones); plus they're jam packed with useless cruft.

   
2. I've already created a replacement scripting engine and combat engine (and have already moved to % based / fractional critical hit system and want to move the attack roll to a more WoW/ARPG style.), so I'm quite invested in my belief that alternate rule systems are a good thing for NWN.

   
3. 
      

   I truly believe that a wider range of rules and systems would have attracted more players, more builders, and also maybe just people that wanted to cut their teeth on gamedev (and who couldn't care less about DND).   It's kind of moot now, but...

   
      

* I.e. One doesn't need to know much more than 'just click on monsters' to get started.  It can be argued that DND fails at that.

 

----

 

As for me and my server:  I feel like it was a mistake for my medium-high magic server to go the 'boost this, boost that' route.  If I had do it all over I would have taken a radical approach:

• d20s? Gone... use percentage based systems.


• A spell/feat/skill isn't valuable?  Delete it.  Maybe repurpose it later after a solid core of useful/fun things have been found...


• Item Properties?  Redo them all from scratch with an eye towards efficient randomization and more varied itemization.


• Spells?  I'd love to drop vancian magic.

 

All of which is very interesting...

 

..but then its not D&D as you correctly note.

 

It sounds a lot like Runequest (??) or perhaps Rolemaster (??)

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               

The final note is too the thread the OP has linked.

 

The top selling games cited on such sites as GOG and to a lesser degree Steam are actually D & D games. Be it Neverwinter Nights 1 and 2, Baldur's Gate and its various iterations, Icewind Dales likewise.

 

I am sure some of the audience to buy and play these games are based upon the developers and their reputation for quality. However I think Skyrim and Diablo also have very good reputations and popularity with their community.

 

I am fairly certain that the D & D reputation is perhaps the strongest point in the buyers "cognitive response". D & D is such a mainstream well known cultural reference. (I mean the guys on Big Bang Theory play D & D not Tunnels and Trolls or Chivalry and Sorcery  '>  ) 

 

Even if newish players are awe stuck by the quirky rules and arcane features of the game... all that needs to be done it to simplify it a bit.

 

Heck TSR and Wizards of the Coast have been trying the same thing for 20 years - surely that's no hang up is it ?