Author Topic: Damage bonus against race weapon property  (Read 800 times)

Legacy_Grani

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« on: March 13, 2015, 07:35:08 pm »


               

I think I've reached a difficult point and I'm not sure if there's a comfortable way out of it.


I'm struggling with how much the damage bonus against race property should be worth and, in turn, what's the maximum value of this bonus an item can have.


 


On one hand, in PVE, the races that a player might encounter are numerous, so the worth of this property should be rather low, lower than of a damage bonus against an alignment. This is simply due to the fact that, statistically, such an item will be useful only on rare occassions, when the wielder faces off against this specific race. That's pretty obvious.


 


But, on the other hand, this property is much more useful in PVP, where the chances of encountering one of the seven races (playable ones) are increased dramatically. The only reasons to consider another race to have a bonus damage against are shapeshifting opponents and the enemy's summons. Even then, there are only a handful of races that are a viable choice for shapeshifting in PVP and, as for summons, they're a small threat to begin with.


 


Well, the question is, how should I deal with the fact that this item property is much more useful in PVP than in PVE?

Should I just measure its worth according to PVP and, by doing so, practically make it a PVP-exclusive property?


Or is there something else I could do in this regard?


 


All opinions are welcome.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_kalbaern

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #1 on: March 13, 2015, 10:01:10 pm »


               

My own rule of thumb is to set a max VS Race bonus at 1 higher than my normal max enhancement bonuses. So on my PW, magic weapons can be found from +1 to +3, and VS bonuses are maxed at +4. I also limit any VS bonuses to one per enchanted weapon (weapons with a + enhancement) or up to three if no general enhancement is used.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #2 on: March 13, 2015, 10:20:15 pm »


               

Or is there something else I could do in this regard?

 


All opinions are welcome.




 


Not include it?  I mean, in my experience I've found most modules/worlds with this sort of stuff devolve into collecting different weapons to use against different races, so you wind up walking around with 15 different Longswords each specialized versus a specific enemy type.  Or you run into other problems where you have a choice between a +3 Longsword with 1d6 fire damage or a +3 Battleaxe with 1d10 fire damage vs Orcs.  So that's 2 more damage.  But if you have Weapon Focus in Longsword and Improved Critical in Longsword...then it's not even worth switching.  So a lot of the "special weapons" wind up untouched since it's not worth losing the other bonuses you have.


 


I guess a main question to ask would be: what do you think it'll offer by including it?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #3 on: March 13, 2015, 10:50:18 pm »


               


I guess a main question to ask would be: what do you think it'll offer by including it?




 


Diversity, I guess. Frankly, I've been thinking about your suggestion, too. I also came to the conclusion that availability of such a weapon property can encourage players to hoard on weapons for different occassions.


But it's not possible to discourage players from having several weapons at their disposal. Even without this property, there are others like it (vs alignment and vs alignment group). I guess they could be removed as well (what do you think about it, by the way?), but some weapons will still have a hard time against some types of opponents. It's only natural for players to carry more of them, just in case they need to deal with a powerful fire-immune opponent and their weapon of choice is a fire-enchanted one.


 


 




My own rule of thumb is to set a max VS Race bonus at 1 higher than my normal max enhancement bonuses. So on my PW, magic weapons can be found from +1 to +3, and VS bonuses are maxed at +4. I also limit any VS bonuses to one per enchanted weapon (weapons with a + enhancement) or up to three if no general enhancement is used.




 


Interesting. And what's your policy on general damage bonuses, not race specific ones?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_kalbaern

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2015, 01:19:04 am »


               


Diversity, I guess. Frankly, I've been thinking about your suggestion, too. I also came to the conclusion that availability of such a weapon property can encourage players to hoard on weapons for different occassions.


But it's not possible to discourage players from having several weapons at their disposal. Even without this property, there are others like it (vs alignment and vs alignment group). I guess they could be removed as well (what do you think about it, by the way?), but some weapons will still have a hard time against some types of opponents. It's only natural for players to carry more of them, just in case they need to deal with a powerful fire-immune opponent and their weapon of choice is a fire-enchanted one.


 


 


 


Interesting. And what's your policy on general damage bonuses, not race specific ones?




Keep in mind that my own PW has its own specific economy and balancing methods and what I do may not work elsewhere.


 


 


- No Ability boosts on weapons, armors or shields.


 


- Max Enhancement bonus is +3.


 


- Weapons with damage type bonuses are equal to the enhancement +1. I.e, a minor flaming sword would have no enhancement bonus, but +1 fire damage, while a +2 flaming sword would have a +2 enhancement and +3 fire damage normally.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2015, 01:44:51 am »


               


Keep in mind that my own PW has its own specific economy and balancing methods and what I do may not work elsewhere.


 


 


- No Ability boosts on weapons, armors or shields.


 


- Max Enhancement bonus is +3.


 


- Weapons with damage type bonuses are equal to the enhancement +1. I.e, a minor flaming sword would have no enhancement bonus, but +1 fire damage, while a +2 flaming sword would have a +2 enhancement and +3 fire damage normally.




 


No worries, I know that balancing the items revolves around the overall balance of the module. I asked out of curiosity. '<img'>


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2015, 07:35:56 am »


               


Even without this property, there are others like it (vs alignment and vs alignment group). I guess they could be removed as well (what do you think about it, by the way?),




 


I think they tend to have the same problem, only worse.  If +3 is generally the best on the server but you can get +4 vs Good, +4 vs Neutral, and +4 vs Evil...people are going to wind up with one weapon for each alignment and everyone will effectively have +4 weapons.  Which means you're not really a +3 server anymore.


 




It's only natural for players to carry more of them, just in case they need to deal with a powerful fire-immune opponent and their weapon of choice is a fire-enchanted one.




 


Well, uh...care to take a guess what I think about elemental immunities? '<img'>


 


Below is a "rant"I wrote a few days ago on my blog as part of a larger social Q&A sort of thing, you might find it interesting.  To paraphrase part of it...having an Ancient White Dragon threatening the village and going on a quest to assemble a fiery weapon capable of defeating it can be fun.  But when you then assemble another half a dozen weapons to use against different elemental resistances...you wind up just swapping weapons around without actually changing anything in terms of gameplay.  The "coolness" factor of "YEAH I GOT A FIRE WEAPON WHO'S THE BADASS ONE NOW DRAGON!" goes away when you're switching between fire/electric/cold/etc weapons with every zone you enter based on what enemies are there...and despite switching weapons, you're still doing the exact same thing, just with a different color for damage.


 



   Spoiler
   


 


You might have noticed the complete lack of NWN examples in that bit (like, say, how there's no Cold spell past level 5 but plenty of Fire spells).  I didn't mention any because I'm still trying to lure people to NWN now and then whenever I notice GOG having a sale and am trying not to put anything down that would turn people away.  Yeah, I'm biased.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2015, 10:45:27 am »


               

I completely agree with you, but there's little to nothing that can be done about this problem apart from restricting a bunch of item properties. Damage resistance? Exclude it. Bonus damage? Exclude it. Items will be left with AC bonuses, enhancement bonuses and some others, not so vital ones, like vampiric regeneration or an on-hit property.


 


Stuff like a flaming sword that deals fire damage is a staple of fantasy games, especially RPG. I don't think that restricting all of this is the way to go.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2015, 07:04:22 pm »


               


Damage resistance? Exclude it.




 


Whoa whoa whoa!


 


Why would we need to exclude damage resistance/immunity?  Actually, I would agree on excluding damage resistance for other reasons unrelated to damage types, but presumably your logic would include immunity as well, right?


 


The problem isn't damage immunity -- the problem is when stuff becomes about stacking damage immunity and you wind up carrying around 50 pieces of gear for different situations.  But there are at least two major ways to avoid that:


 


1, any item with damage immunity has it to all damage types, potentially divided along something like the physical/non-physical spectrum.  Siege of the Heavens does something similar to this -- every "upgraded" item you get has 5% damage immunity to all damage types, meaning by the end of the adventure you're taking 45% less damage which is basically doubling your health.


 


2, restrict things to certain item slots.  For example, if only cloaks have immunity to fire, then you could slowly increase the percentage as the character levels up.  So a level 20 character might have 10% immunity to fire, a level 30 might have 25% immunity to fire, and a level 40 might have 45% immunity to fire.  Or something along those lines.  And as long as those are treated as "upgrades" to the item rather than replacing other properties (in other words, it's a choice between a 2 AC cloak with 5% fire immunity OR a 3 AC cloak with 5% fire immunity) then you don't need to worry about people swapping in certain cloaks for areas with fire damage.


 


Hell, if you're willing to put in the scripting work you can customize the percents of immunity very precisely and use OnEquip type scripts to apply the effect (so you're not limited to both 5% increments and additive immunities).


 


The main thing that throws a wrench in this is Elemental Shield due to the whole additive stacking.


 




Bonus damage? Exclude it.




 


Whoa whoa whoa!


 


Why would we need to exclude bonus damage?  The problem is not the existence of a flaming longsword (or a lightning sword, ice sword, etc).  I agree, those are cool and a staple of games.


 


The problem is the fact a fire elemental/fire giant/red dragon is immune to fire.  Remove that and you can have any thematic weapon you want with no problem.  In all seriousness, have you ever read a book or watched a movie where the hero has a special weapon and then fights an enemy who is immune to that special weapon?  I haven't.  Aragorn doesn't carry around five swords specialized for fighting orcs, ring wraiths, men, trolls, and squid abominations from the lake near Moria.


 




Items will be left with AC bonuses, enhancement bonuses and some others, not so vital ones, like vampiric regeneration or an on-hit property.




 


In my "ideal" world (due to the problems with 1H + shield, 1H, dual-wield, and 2H -- basically what Kalbaern talked about with no ability boosts on anything in the weapon slots) weapons can have attack bonuses, damage bonuses, bonus spell slots, Holy Avenger, keen, massive criticals, on-hit, and vampiric regen.


 


Non-weapons can have AC, ability bonuses, bonus spell slots, freedom, haste, damage immunity, immunity to specific effects, regeneration, saving throw bonuses, skill bonuses, and true seeing.


 


I'm intentionally leaving some stuff out that I don't like seeing on items (like Improved Evasion or Knockdown) and I may be forgetting some stuff as well.


 


Incidentally, the on-hit doesn't have to be non-vital at all.  You can make that whatever you want with scripting -- whether it's a sword that has a chance to burn victims and cause more damage over time, a dagger that increases your AB by 1 for 6 seconds every time you land a hit, a rapier that increases your AC by 1 for 6 seconds every time you land a hit, a mace that chills opponents and reduces their movement speed/AB/gives spell failure, acidic arrows that leave enemies more vulnerable to damage in general...I could go on.  You can practically define weapons with special on-hit effects.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Grani

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #9 on: March 15, 2015, 01:04:06 am »


               


Whoa whoa whoa!


 


Why would we need to exclude damage resistance/immunity?  Actually, I would agree on excluding damage resistance for other reasons unrelated to damage types, but presumably your logic would include immunity as well, right?


 


The problem isn't damage immunity -- the problem is when stuff becomes about stacking damage immunity and you wind up carrying around 50 pieces of gear for different situations.  But there are at least two major ways to avoid that:


 


1, any item with damage immunity has it to all damage types, potentially divided along something like the physical/non-physical spectrum.  Siege of the Heavens does something similar to this -- every "upgraded" item you get has 5% damage immunity to all damage types, meaning by the end of the adventure you're taking 45% less damage which is basically doubling your health.


 


2, restrict things to certain item slots.  For example, if only cloaks have immunity to fire, then you could slowly increase the percentage as the character levels up.  So a level 20 character might have 10% immunity to fire, a level 30 might have 25% immunity to fire, and a level 40 might have 45% immunity to fire.  Or something along those lines.  And as long as those are treated as "upgrades" to the item rather than replacing other properties (in other words, it's a choice between a 2 AC cloak with 5% fire immunity OR a 3 AC cloak with 5% fire immunity) then you don't need to worry about people swapping in certain cloaks for areas with fire damage.


 


Hell, if you're willing to put in the scripting work you can customize the percents of immunity very precisely and use OnEquip type scripts to apply the effect (so you're not limited to both 5% increments and additive immunities).


 


The main thing that throws a wrench in this is Elemental Shield due to the whole additive stacking.


 


 


Whoa whoa whoa!


 


Why would we need to exclude bonus damage?  The problem is not the existence of a flaming longsword (or a lightning sword, ice sword, etc).  I agree, those are cool and a staple of games.


 


The problem is the fact a fire elemental/fire giant/red dragon is immune to fire.  Remove that and you can have any thematic weapon you want with no problem.  In all seriousness, have you ever read a book or watched a movie where the hero has a special weapon and then fights an enemy who is immune to that special weapon?  I haven't.  Aragorn doesn't carry around five swords specialized for fighting orcs, ring wraiths, men, trolls, and squid abominations from the lake near Moria.


 


 


In my "ideal" world (due to the problems with 1H + shield, 1H, dual-wield, and 2H -- basically what Kalbaern talked about with no ability boosts on anything in the weapon slots) weapons can have attack bonuses, damage bonuses, bonus spell slots, Holy Avenger, keen, massive criticals, on-hit, and vampiric regen.


 


Non-weapons can have AC, ability bonuses, bonus spell slots, freedom, haste, damage immunity, immunity to specific effects, regeneration, saving throw bonuses, skill bonuses, and true seeing.


 


I'm intentionally leaving some stuff out that I don't like seeing on items (like Improved Evasion or Knockdown) and I may be forgetting some stuff as well.


 


Incidentally, the on-hit doesn't have to be non-vital at all.  You can make that whatever you want with scripting -- whether it's a sword that has a chance to burn victims and cause more damage over time, a dagger that increases your AB by 1 for 6 seconds every time you land a hit, a rapier that increases your AC by 1 for 6 seconds every time you land a hit, a mace that chills opponents and reduces their movement speed/AB/gives spell failure, acidic arrows that leave enemies more vulnerable to damage in general...I could go on.  You can practically define weapons with special on-hit effects.




 


 


I feel like your solutions greatly handicap item (and monster, for that matter) customization possibilities. As for the on-hit properties, I meant the original ones, with a saving roll of DC between 16-26.


 


To be honest, I don't feel like it's that huge of a problem if players collect a bunch of items for different occassions. Well, if they want to do so, I won't be stopping them. I already decided some time ago against damage immunities exactly to avoid someone making a full set of 100% immunity to some damage in total. Instead, I'll stick to non-stacking damage resistance, limited to a reasonable maximum. And I'll make sure to have these resistances granted only by items not affecting character's appearance, such as rings, boots, amulets... Let them swap between various items, but at least let's stop them from swapping their outfits. '<img'>


Lastly, I think what you said about race/alignment/alignment group specific bonuses is true, I will not include them.


 


Hmm, anything else?



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #10 on: March 16, 2015, 06:13:30 am »


               


I feel like your solutions greatly handicap item (and monster, for that matter) customization possibilities. As for the on-hit properties, I meant the original ones, with a saving roll of DC between 16-26.




 


Besides damage resistance (since you don't want damage immunity)...what else is lacking for item customization?  I think the only other things I left out were feats (which has nothing to do with damage types).


 


What do you think you lose out on for monster customization possibilities?  Literally the only thing that changes is monsters aren't immune (or vulnerable) to certain types of damage.  And the only thing that changes is players switching weapons/ammunition for different damage types and mages using Lightning Bolt instead of Fireball (or use IGMS and ignore the whole issue -- which is what usually winds up happening anyway).


 




I already decided some time ago against damage immunities exactly to avoid someone making a full set of 100% immunity to some damage in total. Instead, I'll stick to non-stacking damage resistance, limited to a reasonable maximum.




 


*shrug*  Obviously your world, your call, but the problem with damage resistance is that it doesn't affect all damage amounts equally.  If the target has 10 fire resist, hitting once for 25 damage is as good as hitting three times for 15 damage each.  And you wind up with weird results for critical hits -- a longsword dealing 40 damage per hit against a target with 30 slashing resist deals 10 damage on a hit and 50 damage on a crit.


 


If you write a custom script you can easily avoid the 100% immunity issue (basically the item description would have to say that it gives 5% fire resist and then you apply the buff to the player -- can do something like 1/(1+x) meaning 50% damage immunity means taking 33% less damage or multiplicative bonuses (so 10% + 20% + 30% = 0.9 * 0.8 * 0.7 = 49.6% immunity)).


 




Hmm, anything else?




 


Add in Acid/Cold/Negative spells for mages that don't suck for level 6 and above.  Add the ability for clerics/druids to do non-fire spells as main nukes (with the exception of Storm of Vengeance).  Sure is fun to play as a caster cleric when most things are immune to fire.  Flame Strike and Firestorm aren't particularly great when half their damage is ignored.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #11 on: March 16, 2015, 07:06:53 pm »


               

*shrug*  Obviously your world, your call, but the problem with damage resistance is that it doesn't affect all damage amounts equally.  If the target has 10 fire resist, hitting once for 25 damage is as good as hitting three times for 15 damage each.  And you wind up with weird results for critical hits -- a longsword dealing 40 damage per hit against a target with 30 slashing resist deals 10 damage on a hit and 50 damage on a crit.

 


 


You can also combine damage resistance with damage vulnerability to make interesting combinations


 


For example:


 


Lesser ring of cold warding: DR 5/- DV 10%


Ring of cold warding: DR 10/- DV 25%


Greater ring of cold warding: DR 15/- DV 50%


Epic ring of cold warding: DR 20/- DV 75%


 


Note that the more powerful rings provide better low damage protection but become an increasing liability for high damage.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #12 on: March 16, 2015, 07:48:56 pm »


               


You can also combine damage resistance with damage vulnerability to make interesting combinations




 


I'm not sure I'd call that interesting -- even if this worked as you hoped, 99% of the time it's as simple as "Is the main damage coming from bonus damage on weapons or spell/ability attacks?"  And, again, it leads to a situation where you have a minimum of 2 rings (or items in general) per damage type (still assuming this works out as you hope)...so we're basically making the problem twice as bad.


 


But...well, it doesn't work as you hope.  The math isn't even hard -- the Epic Ring beats every other ring unless you're taking 30+ damage per hit.  And once you go past 30 damage...you're basically better off not even wearing a ring.  For example, say you take 35 damage. Wearing the first ring results in taking 33 damage, or a 6% reduction.  Wearing the second ring results in taking 33 damage as well.  Wearing the third ring results in taking 37.5 damage (more overall).  Wearing the fourth ring results in taking 36 damage (more overall).


 


If you take 40 damage, then you shave off 1 damage (2.5%), 0 damage, take more, and take more respectively.  Take 50 or more damage and every ring is equal to or worse than not wearing one at all.  But even in our best case situation, you're talking about having enemies that deal between 30 and 40 damage so you can wear the first ring to shave off 2-6% of the damage (as a way to do something besides wearing the Epic ring or no ring at all).


 


Your post is symptomatic of my main point: this stuff SOUNDS a lot more interesting than it really is in practice.  It doesn't actually provide compelling gameplay.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #13 on: March 17, 2015, 04:36:57 pm »


               


But...well, it doesn't work as you hope.  The math isn't even hard -- the Epic Ring beats every other ring unless you're taking 30+ damage per hit.  And once you go past 30 damage...you're basically better off not even wearing a ring.  For example, say you take 35 damage. Wearing the first ring results in taking 33 damage, or a 6% reduction.  Wearing the second ring results in taking 33 damage as well.  Wearing the third ring results in taking 37.5 damage (more overall).  Wearing the fourth ring results in taking 36 damage (more overall).




 


I works precisely as I hope and intend it to work.  No reason to make a ring designed against low damage work well against massive damage.  Your calculations are slightly off as well as the epic ring is only best up to 20 damage (for 35 damage the player receives 41.25 damage not 36).  From 20-33 damage one would the normal ring is best and from 34-50 damage the lesser ring is best, above 50 damage no ring is best.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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Damage bonus against race weapon property
« Reply #14 on: March 17, 2015, 04:41:14 pm »


               


 And, again, it leads to a situation where you have a minimum of 2 rings (or items in general) per damage type (still assuming this works out as you hope)...so we're basically making the problem twice as bad.




 


 


Why wear two rings of the same damage type when damage resistance does not stack but damage vulnerability does?