NWN 1 & 2 are still selling like hotcakes over at GOG.com...so where are all the players?

[Legacy_MayCaesar]

               

There are some videos on Youtube, like this one:

 

 

It definitely doesn't look nearly as functional as Aurora or Electron, and I haven't seen anything related to scripting. It is more like Age of Empires 1 editor, which allows you to just open it and start doing things without learning anything. And while it seems like a weakness, I actually think it is an advantage: the easier the editor to use, the more people will enjoy using it and the more people will end up using it on a constant basis. The created modules are unlikely to be very intricated, but I believe some amazing stories can still be made with it. And they did mention that players would be allowed to create custom models, items, monsters, etc. I think the potential is huge, especially if they work on the editor some more and add the tools for more demanding mod makers, such as advanced scripting.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               If if if... Not terribly optimistic about that game honestly. Didn't the monetization already look shady? That usually tells enough about where the publisher wants this to go
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tchos]

               

The editor does look pretty simplified, but it's definitely leagues above the adventure-building tools for Neverwinter Online.  It would need to have custom script ability to get me into modding with it, but I expect I'll have fun playing it in any case.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MayCaesar]

               

As long as the players are free to create their own content at their own leisure, I don't see monetization as an issue. Anyway, I don't think debating it right now makes much sense, since we know so little about the upcoming game. It is going to be released in just 1.5 months, so we will see soon enough how the editor holds up. I am pretty excited about it though, since it might be the first high budget D&D game since Neverwinter Nights 2 (unless I've missed something important), and the first RPG editor that looks quite serious since Dragon Age: Origins.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Grani]

               

I browsed through the comments of this video.

Perhaps I'm too biased, but I can't help it. When I see all these comments like "Every dungeon master's dreams are here, i can't wait to create epic campaigns in this beautiful tool @_@" or "omg im in tears this is what i wanted to do in a video game" I feel a strong desire to yell at them "Hey, you can do this and much more in Neverwinter Nights... since more than a decade ago!".

 

Maybe it's just me. ;_;

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MayCaesar]

               

I browsed through the comments of this video.

Perhaps I'm too biased, but I can't help it. When I see all these comments like "Every dungeon master's dreams are here, i can't wait to create epic campaigns in this beautiful tool @_@" or "omg im in tears this is what i wanted to do in a video game" I feel a strong desire to yell at them "Hey, you can do this and much more in Neverwinter Nights... since more than a decade ago!".

 

Maybe it's just me. ;_;

 

I remember a post from some forums from a person that discovered story-based RPGs. Before that he had played only FPS and MMOs. He was sparkling with enthusiasm, "Guys, Dragon Age: Origins is so amazing! You can pick conversation options! You get a lot of cool cutscenes! The combat actually requires thinking! Why hasn't anyone made a game like this before?" One of the first responses, "Sorry bud, but you are a couple of decades late here..."

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Grani]

               

Ha, seriously? He was enthusiastic about getting to choose conversation options? Oh, man.

 

But well, I think we might use the release of SCL to our advantage. All these people are excited about its toolset and think it's something original. This means that they do not play/build in NWN not because they don't like it, but because they've never heard about it. As cheeky as it may sound, we could enlighten them a bit, especially after the game comes out and they find out that the toolset is quite limited. Which is a given. One of the comments under that video expressed hope that Baldur's Gate will be recreated in SCL. I highly doubt that the offered customization options will allow for this without any "hard" modding. Thus, I think it's only a matter of time before people realize the toolset does not allow them to do many things they thought it would. That might be a good time to poke them and say "Hey, but you know what, you should check out Neverwinter Nights, its toolset is very advanced!"

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               Well, considering people think DAO was a first to introduce conversation options, i have no trouble imagining those kinds of people will not even realize if a toolset is limited or not.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tchos]

               

Could be just me, but I mentally add "in a current-gen game" to some of those comments.  I'm sure not all of them are unaware of the NWN games and other moddable games.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kamal_]

               The list of things you can't do vs what you can do give me the impression the SCL toolset is designed to implement a Diablo style rpg, at least that's my impression from reading about the toolset on their forums. Their devs promise a lot of things for the toolset "after release", I am sceptical of that.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MayCaesar]

               

Ha, seriously? He was enthusiastic about getting to choose conversation options? Oh, man.

 

But well, I think we might use the release of SCL to our advantage. All these people are excited about its toolset and think it's something original. This means that they do not play/build in NWN not because they don't like it, but because they've never heard about it. As cheeky as it may sound, we could enlighten them a bit, especially after the game comes out and they find out that the toolset is quite limited. Which is a given. One of the comments under that video expressed hope that Baldur's Gate will be recreated in SCL. I highly doubt that the offered customization options will allow for this without any "hard" modding. Thus, I think it's only a matter of time before people realize the toolset does not allow them to do many things they thought it would. That might be a good time to poke them and say "Hey, but you know what, you should check out Neverwinter Nights, its toolset is very advanced!"

 

Honestly, I doubt that Neverwinter Nights, as outdated as it is, is going to experience a flow of new players disappointed by SCL toolset; they will likely just wait for a more functional toolset, possibly in some other game, to pop up. However, there is a very-very small, but existing, chance that, seeing all this interest to toolsets and D&D, Bioware will spend some resources on giving Neverwinter Nights a more modern look: higher quality textures, decent high resolution support, improved interface, improved mechanics, making it look decent by modern standards - and that, I think, would have a potential to make the game and the toolset very popular again. Just look at the success of Age of Empires 2 HD - and they only added official high resolution support and implemented a fan-made mod, both long available for the original game!

 

 

The list of things you can't do vs what you can do give me the impression the SCL toolset is designed to implement a Diablo style rpg, at least that's my impression from reading about the toolset on their forums. Their devs promise a lot of things for the toolset "after release", I am sceptical of that.

 

Yes, the purpose of the toolset is, definitely, more narrowed than the purpose of Aurora: I wouldn't say it is for Diablo like games, but it is for rather linear games, focused on combat, not on the story. Still, with some tricks, I believe it is possible to make a great RPG campaign with it. If people managed with oversimplistic editor in Age of Empires 2 to make story based RPGs, then with this it definitely should be possible

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Grani]

               

Honestly, I doubt that Neverwinter Nights, as outdated as it is, is going to experience a flow of new players disappointed by SCL toolset; they will likely just wait for a more functional toolset, possibly in some other game, to pop up. However, there is a very-very small, but existing, chance that, seeing all this interest to toolsets and D&D, Bioware will spend some resources on giving Neverwinter Nights a more modern look: higher quality textures, decent high resolution support, improved interface, improved mechanics, making it look decent by modern standards - and that, I think, would have a potential to make the game and the toolset very popular again. Just look at the success of Age of Empires 2 HD - and they only added official high resolution support and implemented a fan-made mod, both long available for the original game!

 

My opinion is different. I highly doubt BioWare will do anything new to Neverwinter Nights. I think the chance of NWN attracting new players after the release of SCL is much higher. Not everyone's gaming preferences are so shallow that they'll refuse to try out an old game altogether. Let's be optimistic.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MayCaesar]

               

My opinion is different. I highly doubt BioWare will do anything new to Neverwinter Nights. I think the chance of NWN attracting new players after the release of SCL is much higher. Not everyone's gaming preferences are so shallow that they'll refuse to try out an old game altogether. Let's be optimistic.

 

Time will tell. But I know how hard it is to hook newer players to older games. One of my university friends, for example, was a vivid Starcraft 2 player, it was pretty much the only game he played 90% of the time. I was a bit shocked to learn that he had never played Starcraft 1, and I highly recommended it to him. He bought the game, tried to get into it, installed it a few times, started playing, then uninstalled, then installed again... He just could not get past the outdated graphics and mechanics.

 

I myself could never really get into Baldur's Gate series. I started playing RPGs in 1999, and I played only 3D RPGs till early 2010s - hard to say how it happened, but I managed to miss all Infinity Engine games. Last year, I played through both Baldur's Gate games with all the expansions - and, honestly, the only thing that made me keep playing was the mental check I would put on this series after I'm done that "Yes, I've played this classic". I liked the character interaction, but, good lord... the graphics, the mechanics, the combat - everything was so outdated, felt so clunky, that only my extreme completionist nature saved me from quitting a few hours after I started.

And I have been playing video games since 1991, so it is not like I am not used to severely outdated games. Imagine how Neverwinter Nights will look to someone who started playing, say, in 2005 and grew up on games like Mass Effect, Dragon Age, Skyrim, never having played anything much older... Maybe NWN2 will look fine to them, but even in this I am not sure.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tchos]

               

I'm a little different from you, MayCaesar, but I'm still an example of the modern gamer who discovered the older ones late and yet went back to them.  Up until mid-2009, I held graphics in high importance, and would not play older 3D games with low polygon counts and poor texturing.  But after getting tired of playing Oblivion and Fallout 3, a friend finally managed to convince me to try Morrowind.  I had been highly resistant to it because it was so ugly, but after playing it a little, I saw the merits in its greater complexity and deeper gameplay over its successor, and this opened me up to playing more older games.

 

Then I played Dragon Age: Origins, which was the door that led to the earlier games that inspired it, such as Baldur's Gate and the NWN games.  The difference with me is that I find the more artistic, more colourful, and less repetitive 2D graphics of Baldur's Gate to be superior to its early 3D successors.  Modern 3D games likely have an edge over them now, but it depends on how willing they are to have assets that are unique to particular areas, rather than common assets that are reused everywhere.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               I tried to use nwn 2 to get my girlfriend into rpgs (her rig is old, this was the most it could handle) It didn't go well. She lost interest after a few evenings, because she felt the pacing was too slow and the controls too cumbersome. She also tried to brute force most battles (with a druid of all things) because reading up on tons of spells and setting up her spell book before each dungeon was not something she enjoyed.


Things that are second nature to use may be too convoluted for newcomers to get into. And there are more streamlined alternatives available nowadays. I can see why most developers these days try to avoid any comparisons with 'spread sheet simulator: The game'