NWN 1 & 2 are still selling like hotcakes over at GOG.com...so where are all the players?

[Legacy_OldTimeRadio]

               

Right now, NWN: Diamond is showing up in third place on GOG.com's bestselling games list, right behind Planescape: Torment and Baldur's Gate II: Complete.  While this is a little higher a placement than usual, NWN 1 is very popular on GOG and I have to assume if you're hitting third place in sales on that site, you're selling a lot of copies.  NWN 2 is sitting in the eighth position which is no slouch either, considering both of these games are showing to outsell even The Witcher and The Witcher 2 on GOG.

 

So...where are all the players?  How much are they playing?  Are they playing multiplayer or single player?  Do they know or care to know about the forums here or, for instance, the new Vault?  Is the average person who buys NWN 1 or NWN 2 today, let's say a complete newbie, having an easy time getting the information or (whatever) they need?  If not, is there anything we can do more as a community of either game to reach these players if they aren't?

 

I'm also curious how we can perceive their "footprint".  I know there are a few of you in either NWN 1 or 2 who do spend some time tracking the player health of the community in various ways.  What metrics are you using now that Gamespy is down?  What are your conclusions or hunches?

 

There aren't any right or wrong answers to these questions, just opinions for the most part.  I'd like to know yours!

 

Thanks!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BelowTheBelt]

               

A couple of points to consider

1)  The GoG list is heavily influence by their recent promotional efforts.  After a few weeks, you'll see NWN will drop and whatever they have on sale will rise to the top, though NWN is usually still in the top tier of all games sold.  GoG just ran their Insomnia sale and NWN was probably included in that, which drove its popularity.  As a result, NWN 1/2 are relatively 'new' in a lot of customers' accounts.  

 

2)  If those people are anything like me, they have a backlog of games.  My steam account and GoG accounts are filled with games that, because I spend 99% of my time doing NWN-related things, I won't even open those games up until I retire, lol.  So, it may be a while before they even play the game they purchased.  Purchase != playing.  I'd say that many of those customers may be chewing on other purchases first and probably haven't gotten around to in installing the game.

 

 

3)  Many will start and end with single player with little or no interest in the deeper availability of content or the community.  It's the 80/20 rule.  

 

But...to your excellent questions about how we measure the strength of the audience (current and latent) as well as pique their interest in becoming more invested in the community and content that the NWN franchise offers, here are my thougts:  

 

1)  GoG's forum - That's where most of those people will turn when they have a question.

 

2)  Reddit.com- one of the largest websites in the world.  There are more gamers there who have experience (current or lapsed) with NWN than probably any other location.  There are subreddits for NWN, RPGs, Gaming, and a thousand in-between.  Just search for NWN-related terms and you get recent hits about people talking about NWN every day or two.  It's still in people's collective consciousness.  There are many references to people looking for experiences 'like' NWN.  Every one of these could get a recommendation about NWN's community content.  I serve as a moderator on the NWN subreddit, but more could be done.  Just recently I helped a player with some single-player module issues.  Another recent person was asking about how to enjoy NWN without knowledge of D&D.  Today someone asked about finding a server he/she used to play on.

 

3)  NWN Scry - the lists that populate the server lists gives a good sense of the health of multiplayer.

 

4)  Vault downloads of community content - modules and haks would be a good metric as well.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

3)  Many will start and end with single player with little or no interest in the deeper availability of content or the community.  It's the 80/20 rule.  

1)  GoG's forum - That's where most of those people will turn when they have a question.

 

The former is one of the main problems.  NWN is great because of its custom content.  HotU is good and SoU is at least decent, but if people think the insanely slow paced and poorly designed original campaign is what NWN is about...they very well might quit or not bother doing any other campaigns/PWs.  But it's also extremely hard to get that information out there.

 

The latter...well, GoG's forum is so dead (even compared to these forums) that it's not even funny.  And they have at least one major troll who likes to say stuff like

 

"Take no notice of MagicalMaster, the proven liar, GOG-hater and self-appointed BSN recruiter."

 

Many people don't realize these boards are where the most stuff is happening.  But even this isn't a majority of stuff since people are active on their own PW forums or project forums.  The NWN community is simply so divided and split up that it's hard for people to tell it's much larger than it appears.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               

The former is one of the main problems.  NWN is great because of its custom content.  HotU is good and SoU is at least decent, but if people think the insanely slow paced and poorly designed original campaign is what NWN is about...they very well might quit or not bother doing any other campaigns/PWs.  But it's also extremely hard to get that information out there.

 

The latter...well, GoG's forum is so dead (even compared to these forums) that it's not even funny.  And they have at least one major troll who likes to say stuff like

 

"Take no notice of MagicalMaster, the proven liar, GOG-hater and self-appointed BSN recruiter."

 

Many people don't realize these boards are where the most stuff is happening.  But even this isn't a majority of stuff since people are active on their own PW forums or project forums.  The NWN community is simply so divided and split up that it's hard for people to tell it's much larger than it appears.

I think a certain "someone" over on the GoG forum just has a grudge against you personally MM and no love for BSN either. Perhaps they were banned here in the past, who knows? My last posts over on GoG's forum I went out of my way to link folks to here as well as the new vault though and will continue to link them if I respond to other posts there.

 

Now back to the topic at hand. '>

 

As has been mentioned, most folks buying NWN either alone or as part of a D&D package with BG, IWD, NWN2, etc... are often -collecting- the -whole set- and may or may not actually play through them all. Some grab them out of past sentiments for one or more of the games or D&D in general. The low price(s) during sales just help all of those impulse purchases. Often, after these folks do actually play NWN, again or even for the first time, if they've never played it online in years past, they often just assume that multiplayer is dead and gone due to the discontinued Bioware Master Server and GameSpy services.

 

Usually, folks have to had have played custom modules or PWs in the past or been told by friends what to look for, before they search further and find us here or find out about the new vault.

 

I still see one or two first time -online- players every 2-3 months on my PW. Often, while they do like the improved graphics, scripting, etc... , they are also used to faster leveling, uber stuffs, etc... and they either move on to another better suited PW or more often, get bored and go back to playing FPS games. '> Not all are like that, we have picked up a couple of dedicated regulars this way as well. You just need to have friendly and welcoming DMs and players to help these -first timers- out and get settled is all.

 

When folks are looking for -someplace- to play, its surprising, to me at least, that posts here or other NWN or D&D related sites draw very few players. Most new players I see are drawn to us based on our server's descriptions and working forums links being displayed in either the NW Scry List or when viewing details using Neverrun (which I just love as a GS replacement BTW ... 3 thumbs up!). I've been casually polling new players on my PW the past year or so, and I have to say that a lot of PWs are missing potential traffic because they have outdated links in their PW descriptions and/or poor or no descriptions of what their server is about. Admins/Hosts should take a good look at how their info is displayed in these lists and adjust/fix it for the best viewing result in multiple formats to draw more potential visitors.

 

RP PWs have the hardest time attracting dedicated players. Long time players and returning players often have or had characters on a specific PW, with a long invested history and aren't keen on having to "start over" somewhere else. On my own PW, our numbers IG can jump tenfold when one of a few larger PWs announces it'll be offline for an extended period, but as soon as their main PW is back online ... "poof". I understand it, but it does get frustrating. Many folks will tell me, "Hey, as soon as my PC finishes up the DM event/Quest he's a part of on *insert name of most large PWs* I'll be back". While good intentioned, they neglect to consider is that as they finish wrapping up "one thing" their PC(s) will become embroiled in yet another there. '> I know, I've been there and done that myself over the years. Even when folks become fed up with their PW, their friends and playmates may not be willing to jump ship and they'll stay .... or just eventually give up on NWN entirely.

 

The lowest draws for new players, and I've chatted with other Admins/Hosts and their results seem to back up my own, are FB, BSN and other NWN or D&D related board posts advertising our PWs. Being a longtime member of these, and seeing lots of posts touting PWs I was surprised, at first, but when informally polling some of my players lately, half (or more) never check my own forums ... let alone any others and only one regular player ever checks BSN for things NWN related. These sites are most heavily populated with fellow Admins, Hosts, Builders, Scripters, Modelers, etc... and folks that generally "just play" are certainly a minority.

 

I can't endorse enough, how important having valid links and good descriptions showing in various NWN lists is to recruiting actual new faces.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Grani]

               

The former is one of the main problems.  NWN is great because of its custom content.  HotU is good and SoU is at least decent, but if people think the insanely slow paced and poorly designed original campaign is what NWN is about...they very well might quit or not bother doing any other campaigns/PWs.  But it's also extremely hard to get that information out there.

 

The latter...well, GoG's forum is so dead (even compared to these forums) that it's not even funny.  And they have at least one major troll who likes to say stuff like

 

"Take no notice of MagicalMaster, the proven liar, GOG-hater and self-appointed BSN recruiter."

 

Many people don't realize these boards are where the most stuff is happening.  But even this isn't a majority of stuff since people are active on their own PW forums or project forums.  The NWN community is simply so divided and split up that it's hard for people to tell it's much larger than it appears.

 

I whole-heartedly agree on the community being divided. I think it's a pity that there are too many websites focusing on NWN for a community that's not that great in numbers. I mean, we have BSN, GOG.com forums, the Vault, the facebook community page. I don't really think it'd be easy to just focus all community efforts on a single site (the Vault would probably be best for this, as NWN is its sole focus, as opposed to GOG forums or BSN), but if this was done, our community would probably benefit.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

as long as the knowledge is spread out as to where to get to us, then at the least people will know where to look when they want to find us.

 

I think it would be good to edit that post by ShiaLuck on the GOG site with lots of pointers … errr LINKS to the resources we are using these days.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               

Interesting and also good to see. 

 

I suppose there are a number of people just buying another copy for a new laptop or some such thing so you have to factor down the totals by some margin.

 

But more importantly is "where are all the players" relative to gamer style.

 

As an old timer (period) I can attest that the community was split into different types of games post HoTU .. over time.

 

1) OC / Expansion / Premium Mod player

2) Single Player with community content

3) Coop or connections player and  

4) PW player

 

I didn't list them that way to infer any negativity (artistic or otherwise) ; but with "reasonable debate" I assume that was the most populous percentage of players to the least.  I am basing that on the downloads of early HOF mods for example (100's of thousands for Tragedy in Tragidor or Paladin Duo-logy). You can argue about 3 vs 4 as well .....but that isn't really the point.

 

I could be wrong and perhaps many many players straddled all of those overly simple definitions. I certainly did for a while.

 

The better question might be "how do you engage all those buyers to try to move them down the list to experience the full aspect of the game" and perhaps even contribute? Especially with so many forums. 

 

Good question. Dont know if GOG or Steam would ever "officially" publish links to the Vault or Nexus but that would be a start.

 

Even guides on NWN wiki ... "what type of player are you? " and "here is the abc's to modding the game"

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Grani]

               

Well, I remember that there were links on GOG's "main" page (the one through which you can buy the game) of Planescape:Torment to unofficial game enhancements, like custom resolution, bug fixes, etc. Don't know if they are still there, though.

 

So, I guess it MIGHT be possible for GOG to add links to non-official stuff. It is obvious to me that GOG do what they do because they are passionate about it, not simply because they want to make money.

 

Maybe it'd be possible to get GOG to provide a link to, let's say, neverwinternights.info (since that's a hub with all the other links and guides) and/or some custom content?


The problem I see here is how the community is divided about custom content of NWN. There's no general consensus on whether CEP is better over Project Q or not, whether Shadooow's unofficial patch is good or bad. This might make it difficult to get GOG to provide a link for anything else other than neverwinternights.info (which, I think, would be a success nevertheless). On a side note, this lack of consensus might also be a reason for new players focusing on official content and giving up on custom.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Proleric]

               I don't think new players are likely to worry about those issues. If they get as far as playing modules, they'll download what they need for them.


If we get folk as far as the new vault, I guess we could do more to clarify the offering by making it easier to find great modules and PWs.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Grani]

               

I don't think new players are likely to worry about those issues. If they get as far as playing modules, they'll download what they need for them.


If we get folk as far as the new vault, I guess we could do more to clarify the offering by making it easier to find great modules and PWs.

 

That's one of the roles of The Adventurer's Club on the Vault, I imagine.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

When folks are looking for -someplace- to play, its surprising, to me at least, that posts here or other NWN or D&D related sites draw very few players.

 

I can't endorse enough, how important having valid links and good descriptions showing in various NWN lists is to recruiting actual new faces.

 

That does surprise me -- I don't think I've ever even looked at these lists with descriptions that you're referring to!  But for someone who doesn't know about or spend much time on stuff like the BSN, I guess I can see that being true.  I know the whole rule about 10% of the playerbase ever going to the forums and only 1% ever writing on the forums, but I figured both those numbers were massively inflated in a game like NWN.

 

And agreed on the links/descriptions -- which also means that the websites linked to need to be appealing!  Disorganized or sloppy looking websites/forums will turn new people away.  I also think a lot of PW admins may still be in the mindset of assuming any interested player will give their server "a fair shake" or something even if things aren't so great on the website or the starting experience on the world is mediocre -- when in reality there's so much available in both NWN and games in general that many people are almost looking for reasons NOT to play somewhere, if you get my drift.

 

Often, after these folks do actually play NWN, again or even for the first time, if they've never played it online in years past, they often just assume that multiplayer is dead and gone due to the discontinued Bioware Master Server and GameSpy services.

 

This is another huge problem because people don't realize we've fixed both of those and I'm not sure there's a good way to communicate it.  I think Grani's idea about trying to get a link to TAD's info site is perhaps our best bet.

 

as long as the knowledge is spread out as to where to get to us, then at the least people will know where to look when they want to find us.

 

The issue with this statement is that, especially given how many freaking games exist at this point, most people aren't going to put in that effort if they think NWN is broken/done for due to stuff like the "master server" and Gamespy listings no longer working.  If they *knew* their was a solution/reward at the top of the hill they'd be a lot more willing to climb it.

 

Maybe it'd be possible to get GOG to provide a link to, let's say, neverwinternights.info (since that's a hub with all the other links and guides) and/or some custom content?


The problem I see here is how the community is divided about custom content of NWN. There's no general consensus on whether CEP is better over Project Q or not, whether Shadooow's unofficial patch is good or bad. This might make it difficult to get GOG to provide a link for anything else other than neverwinternights.info (which, I think, would be a success nevertheless). On a side note, this lack of consensus might also be a reason for new players focusing on official content and giving up on custom.

 

I think the GOG link to neverwinternights.info would be an excellent start.

 

The CEP vs Q thing isn't really relevant here, I think, essentially because modules have been made with both.  Even if we could mathematically prove somehow that Q was superior to CEP that doesn't change the fact that many great modules were made with CEP and thus you need CEP. 

 

And vice versa, of course.

 

Shadow's patch would be a good example, though, especially since it attempts to affect all non-PW content rather than specific modules.  Ditto for the PRC.

 

In regards to new players giving up on custom content, I think we mainly need to promote the actual content.  I mean no offense to the people who create monster models/tilesets/etc...but players, particularly new players, don't care about those at all *unless* they're in an actual module or PW.  We need to promote the modules and PWs (which then require the custom stuff).  That's what will affect new players.

 

That's one of the roles of The Adventurer's Club on the Vault, I imagine.

 

I just went to the vault and looked around for a bit, didn't even see anything about an Adventurer's Club.  If that's supposed to be a big thing then it needs to be prominent somewhere.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Proleric]

               

True. I was thinking more about first impressions, such as the front page layout. However, the vault is run by volunteers, and it seems that at present the in-depth technical capacity is barely sufficient to do bug fixes, let alone redesign.

 

Perhaps a quick win would be a prominent link to the module lists and HoF (it's actually very hard to find module recommendations there, unless you already know what you're looking for).

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               

A custom welcome page...  '>  Simpler is better.

 

...on the vault or NWN Info (an old poster - friend ...Amethyst Dragon ?? iirc??)... even just a link to such a welcome page...

 

Top 5 FAQ and sub-links to Hall of Fame, CEP , Q, PW listing webpage.

 

1) Assume all GOG / Steam Buyers d/l their game into a directory other then what we did years ago. i.e. X86 \ steam or something... small screen shots as pictures are worth a 1000 words.

 

2) Assure them that having haks, erfs, tlks, tilesets, portraits wont ruin their install. In fact all the installs can co-exist without conflicts unless its in override (exception is PRC )

 

3) FAQs that let them know there are 20000 community adventures LOL How the Hall of Fame represents 10+ years of artisitic creation. 

 

4) Absolute net neutrality about the content... simply an invitation... come try it out.

 

5) Maybe a special note about Dungeons and Dragons rule sets and how the fan should enjoy the lore and not feel overwhelmed by the terminology. 

 

The OC is rather long as an entry to the game frankly. I am unsure if I would recommend the OC first. I think that SOU / HoTU is actually a better paced entry into the game even if it is more linear. I am not suggesting the OC is bad - in fact I tend to believe the other way. Simply it is 30 hours with a fair amount of repetition whereas SOU is more like 10 hours...

 

I am still unsure if GOG / Steam would agree to link to such a common page of net neutrality.

 

There are ways to pretty it up with simple content. 

 

Anyway just some random musings.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Lazarus Magni]

               

I am not aware of any recent promotion gog.com is having on NWN1. It's currently selling for 9.99$ (US) as far as I can see. If it's in it's top 3 sellers, perhaps it's there for a reason other than a promotion?

 

I firmly believe it's there because it's an unprecedented game in current gaming history (nothing has come close since in terms of allowing player creativity to be shared in an online format). Sure promotions might bump it up or down a notch, but aren't going to influence it's overall standing, or recognition from players (and consumers) that much. If it's even in the top 10 (and 3 is a lot higher then 10 on a 1-10 scale) that would still be quite an accomplishment, and testament to the foundation it laid down.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kalbaern]

               

I am not aware of any recent promotion gog.com is having on NWN1. It's currently selling for 9.99$ (US) as far as I can see. If it's in it's top 3 sellers, perhaps it's there for a reason other than a promotion?

 

I firmly believe it's there because it's an unprecedented game in current gaming history (nothing has come close since in terms of allowing player creativity to be shared in an online format). Sure promotions might bump it up or down a notch, but aren't going to influence it's overall standing, or recognition from players (and consumers) that much. If it's even in the top 10 (and 3 is a lot higher then 10 on a 1-10 scale) that would still be quite an accomplishment, and testament to the foundation it laid down.

Most D&D titles were on sale the past couple of weeks at 40-80% off.