NWN ruleset differences to BG etc - How easy do you find it?

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               

I bought the Baldur's Gate (I and II) and Icewind Dale Complete packs on the recent GOG sale.  After trying to get into them for a while, I'm having serious reservations. 

 

I can live with the 2D graphics, I like the soundtracks and voice acting, but trying to learn the game mechanics is driving me nuts.  I thought that they would be similar enough not to have to think to much, but the multiclassing system is very different, the spells and feats are quite different and character stats work differently too.  My Thief / Mage with 14 Con is getting killed repeatedly in BG1 when 12 Con is often fine in NWN.

 

At this stage I've decided to play BG and IWD as they were implemented in NWN2.  How do you find it?  Should I just take a basic character and play stright through?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               

The reason you had trouble is that they use AD&D 2nd edition enhanced rules. For a listing of all the editions try this wikipedia page. In that version your ac works differently. AC 10 is the worst, AC 0 is very good and AC -10 is the best possible usually reserved for gods alone. There were a lot more different saving throws and a whole bunch of other stuff.

 

TR

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bhaelrot]

               

... and there is no AB/BAB either. instead ya gotta know how to calculate a thing called THACO, which is an acronym for To Hit Armor Class Zero. Basically the lower your THACO the better off you are, and to calculate your To Hit chance simply subtract the enemy AC from your THACO and the resulting number is what you need to roll on d20 to hit your target. You're going "How in the world do I know what the yeti berserker's AC is?" You don't, which is why the lower you're THACO is the less there is to subtract from!  Anything subtracted from zero is zero.

 

I also took advantage of the recent sale and picked up the IWD 1 & 2 series. I gathered both BG series during an earlier sale. The only issues I have are trying to play them multiplayer. Apparently Gameranger is the way to go but of course my version of Flash Player is not recognized and I don't know how to trick it.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               

I do not really know anything about the NWN2 remakes of those games, though I fear that adapting BG or IWD to something other than 2E rules would destroy the class/combat balance that to my mind was an important part of what made those particular games so enjoyable.

 

As already mentioned above, those games do use 2nd edition rules which have substantial differences from the 3rd Edition ruleset you are accustomed to, so unfortunately if you want to play the originals it is highly advisable to take the time to read the rather long manual. If you find that a daunting prospect, however, a shortcut might be to focus on the tables at the back. In particular, take note of "Table 1: Character Ability Scores." That one table conveys a pretty hefty percentage of the information you need to design a decent character. To briefly summarize, you will generally want to have a score of 16+ in any stat important to your class, which in the case of a Thief/Mage would be Dexterity, Constitution, and Intelligence - though note that non-Warriors gain no additional benefits from a constitution higher than 16 (so do not go for a CON lower than 16, but higher is superfluous in this case).

 

One thing to keep in mind is that those games are much harder than most of the RPGs that came after them, and for a noobish player the difficulty can sometimes be really brutal. They are great games, so if you take the time to learn some of the tricks to playing them, you may find it very rewarding, but in the meantime, expect to die a lot, and save often. Also, as a Thief/Mage your AC, HP and THACO are all going to be rather bad whatever you do, so you really want to avoid the front lines of combat. Fight with a missile weapon or spells and try to keep your distance from foes, and look for warrior-type companions who can tank for you. On the plus side, combining the skill to detect and disarm traps with the ability to cast Invisibility spells can make you a great scout. The combat can be a lot easier when you determine exactly what you are going to be facing before even starting it!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               

@TR - yes, this is the central issue. I was hoping that more of my knowledge would be transferable, but oh well..

 

@Bhael -  yes, I have the IWD games too.  After NWN it is good to have a full party to control, but with less fighting with the camera than in NWN2.

 

@RK333 - Will have a look at those tables then, thanks.  I don't mind reloading, and like the idea of being able to scout as well as cast,,

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kamal_]

               

I do not really know anything about the NWN2 remakes of those games, though I fear that adapting BG or IWD to something other than 2E rules would destroy the class/combat balance that to my mind was an important part of what made those particular games so enjoyable.

I played the IWD in nwn2 remake. I felt it did a good job of keeping the "feel" of IWD, I found the combat rather difficult  (I am not a great player), which made sense to me. I have not tried the BG remake.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Jfoxtail]

               

The NWN2 remakes of both games are in fact very well balanced and preserve not only the feel but the combat balance despite the toolset / rules difference.

 

Frankly they are both excellent true renditions lovingly created and are worthy of play (buying the originals especially at the low expense is a great idea especially for nostalgia and the actual community mods that enhance those games in and of themselves; true D&D junkies like me want copies of all the games)

 

In IWD (v2 I believe) the author provided a difficulty slider (?) I kept v1 and still play it ; but the boss fight wasted me 3 times before I won at regular levels even with a specific weapon. I am no "expert tactician" but I am no noob either especially as it applies to D&D games.

 

1) The IWD (v2?) still lacks the Heart of Winter and Trials of the Luremaster expansion components - so the original is still needed for these scenerios - again another reason to buy the originals.

 

2) BG lacks Shadows of Ahm expansion (although one is in development); SoA is the creme de la creme of BG. It is probably the reason the BG series maintains its reputation as the greatest of all RPGs. Again another reason to buy the originals.

 

In my opinion the difficulty is not based "so much" on the rule set although the differences can handicap an unfamiliar player.

 

It is more based on the fact that BG and IWD are low level lower power games for much of the early stages. 1 Orc can in fact waste half a party if it gets a few lucky roles , and or the player is not prepared, and or you wander off the road a little too far. 1 group of Goblins with bow and arrows can cause significant damage and death as well. Add breakable iron swords, and a lack of inexpensive "full armor" and you have D&D much as it was in Pen and Paper (original and 2nd edition).

 

This contrasts with both the NWN games where the loot / money scripting allows a very inexperienced protagonist to upgrade to +1 and +2 gear - in addition to "full armor" and "damage suppressing belts" fairly quickly ---  and mobs or goblins become overly easy and routine. 

 

I suppose this is by conscious design choices ; therefore I will not critic it - just note the difference.

 

Recommendation: 

 

1) Play the original versions through. The stories are very much worth the time investment

 

2) Play any and all iterations in NWN1 and NWN2 ; the updated graphics / familiarity of the toolset / and even repeating the story is worth it for the story's sake. It brings a certain sense of deja vu ~ like visiting an old friend.

 

Off the top of my head:

1) NWN1 Heart of Winter by Glenn Pudny (?) (very good author) was a nice NWN1 version of that scenerio

2) The NWN2 remakes - both as noted.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               

Thanks kamal_, I've just started IWD in NWN2 and find it tough but involving.  Jfox, I have bought the originals and planned to play them as is, but lack of gaming time means I'll probably play the NWN2 versions first and then go back to the originals if time permits.  The one thing that IWD in NWN2 lacks is the sound track, which alone seems to be a good motivation to go back to it from the comments I've seen.

 

The other reason is that BG, BG2 and IWD can all be run on Android.  I'm trying IWD2 at the moment, but the cross-platform GemRB engine doesn't yet support it fully because the 3ed level-up process has not been implemented yet.  Still a good option for the other games if you have an Android tablet though.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               

My one remaining question: is there a good basic guide to feats?  Was looking for guides to the different classes, and am battling to find a digestible presentation of worthwhile feats.  

 

With six characters in a party, I was hoping to be able to map 3ed to 2ed feats so that I don't cripple my party through poor level-up choices!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               

You do not actually have "feats" as such under 2E rules. In general, once you decide what class to play, what new powers you get at what levels is pre-determined and happens automatically. In that respect, 2E can actually be a lot easier on players who do not really know what they are doing than 3E. The main things you actually need to decide when leveling are what weapon(s) to specialize in and what thief skills to improve. What spells to learn as a mage can sometimes be an issue, but for the most part this will be determined by what scrolls you come across, either as loot or available for purchase.

 

As far as weapons go, it is hard to make a radically bad choice, since you should eventually find good magical versions of every type. How soon you find a magical weapon of the type you want depends in BG on the order in which you do the non-linear quests, and in IWD sometimes on pure luck, since that game has a lot of randomized treasure drops. Some things to keep in mind when making a choice here:

 

1) Elves get a bonus when using bows or longswords, so these weapon types are good choices for them.

 

2) Thieves can only Backstab (2E equivalent to Sneak Attack) when using a backstab-capable weapon (longsword, shortsword, dagger) so those weapon types are generally good choices for them. On the other hand, it is primarily only Fighter/Thieves who can expect to be very good at Backstabbing anyway. You cannot Backstab if you cannot hit (so it helps to have decent THAC0), and since Backstab works by multiplying the initial damage you do, it is most effective when employed by high-strength characters who do a lot of damage to start with.

 

3) If you are playing a character unsuited to being a frontline tank, you definitely want to be proficient in a missile weapon.

 

As far as Thief skills go, I would recommend prioritizing trap disarming and lock picking skills. Some of the dungeons in BG have extremely deadly traps in them, and lockpicking is frequently useful. Stealth is not a priority if you can cast Invisibility spells (which work a lot better than stealth), but it has its uses. Becoming a good pickpocket is pretty much optional: it can provide a few benefits but is not really essential.

 

A lot of the spells are not too different from their NWN equivalents, though there are some exceptions to that. Do not overlook Mirror Image (does not exist in NWN, but can be a very handy defensive spell in these games). Note that casting Lightning Bolts in confined spaces is inadvisable in BG as the bolt will ricochet around the room blasting friend and foe alike. Cloudkill is a much more effective spell in these games than its NWN version. (Just a few spell differences that occur off the top of my head, so do not take that list as exhaustive).

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               

Icewind Dale 2 uses the 3.0 rules like NWN, but interprets them differently.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tchos]

               

The one thing that IWD in NWN2 lacks is the sound track

 

Are you sure you installed the music correctly?  The NWN2 IWD comes with 20 music tracks.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kamal_]

               

Are you sure you installed the music correctly?  The NWN2 IWD comes with 20 music tracks.

Yes, I remember having the original IWD music in nwn2 IWD.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

                Thanks to all. Tchos and kamal_, will check the Installation!
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_PracticalKat]

               Oops, double post..