Seeking Advice on a Critting Scythe Dragon Disciple (PW competitive)

[Legacy_BindMind]

               

EDIT: Decided to abandon the idea of this build in favour of a 16 Bard / 14 Fighter / 10 RDD Scythe-wielder. Weapon Master is clearly outshone by the bard song and fighter feats. Thanks to Everyone for the criticism '>

 

Eyo, chaps! Bit of a newbie here.

 

I've always been one for strange builds in games, even if it's not 100% optimal. However, this doesn't mean I'm against optimization.

 

I'd love some assistance with theorycrafting a Weapon Master / Red Dragon Disciple / Bard for full-epic PW's. I feel it has the potential to be quite strong despite its feat-starved starved and feat-reliant nature. Note, I don't mind the build being weak from 1-18 assuming it's competitive around level 35.

 

The nice thing about the build is that it has just enough feats pre-epic to acquire 4 levels of WM to accomplish 16 BAB, and therefore acquiring the 4th attack.

 

The build I theorycrafted is as follows (final stats at the bottom):

Human   8 Bard / 10 RDD / 22 WM

16 STR / 13 DEX / 14 CON / 14 INT / 8 WIS / 11 CHA

 

1 Bard(1), Expertise, Dodge

2 Bard(2)

3 Bard(3), Exotic Weapon Prof.

4 Bard(4), +STR(17)

5 Bard(5)

6 Bard(6), Weapon Focus(Scythe)

7 Bard(7)

8 RDD(1), +STR(18)

9 RDD(2), Mobility, +2STR(20)

10 RDD(3)

11 RDD(4), +2STR(22)

12 RDD(5), Spring Attack, +STR(21)

13 RDD(6)

14 RDD(7), +2CON(16)

15 RDD(, Whirlwind Attack

16 WM(1), +STR(22)

17 WM(2)

18 WM(3), Heavy Armor Prof.

19 WM(4)

20 WM(5), +STR(23)

21 RDD(9), Improved Critical(Scythe), +2INT(16)

22 WM(6)

23 WM(7)

24 RDD(10), Power Attack, +5STR(28), +2CHA(13)

25 WM(

26 WM(9)

27 WM(10), Cleave

28 WM(11), +STR(29)

29 WM(12)

30 WM(13), Great Cleave, Overwhelming Critical

31 WM(14)

32 WM(15), +STR(30)

33 WM(16), Armor Skin, Devastating Critical

34 WM(17)

35 WM(18)

36 WM(19), Great Strength I(31), Epic Weapon Focus(Scythe), +STR(32)

37 Bard(

38 WM(20)

39 WM(21), Epic Prowess

40 WM(22), Great Strength II(33), +STR(34)

 

Ability Score:

34 STR / 13 DEX / 16 CON / 16 INT / 8 WIS / 13 CHA

 

Mundane Combat Stats:

42/37/32/27 AB

2d4+18 (17-20/x4)

26 AC

363 HP

 

Saves:

22 Fort

22 Ref

21 Will

 

Skills (214):

40(41) Tumble

43(55) Discipline

40(43) Spellcraft

4(5) Intimidate

8(11) Lore

15(16) Perform

27(30) Search

33(32) Listen

 

Thoughts? I'm open to any and all criticism. Thank you for your time.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               

Here in a counter-proposal. It gets almost the same strength without RDD (32 instead of 34), and uses Fighter to make getting all the needed feats much easier. Bard is still there for the skill dumps and the (admittedly weak) song:

   Spoiler
   

Singing Scythe Master (Fighter 12 / Bard 6 / Weapon Master 22)

Human, Non-Lawful

Playable 1 - 40


Abilities:

STR: 16 (32)

DEX: 14

CON: 14

WIS: 8

INT: 14

CHA: 10


Leveling Guide:

Human: (Quick to Master)

01: Fighter(1): Power Attack, Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Weapon Focus: Scythe

02: Bard(1)

03: Fighter(2): Cleave, Dodge

04: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=17)

05: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Scythe

06: Fighter(5): Blind Fight

07: Bard(2)

08: Fighter(6): STR+1, Knockdown, (STR=18)

09: Fighter(7): Mobility

10: Fighter(: Spring Attack

11: Fighter(9)

12: Bard(3): STR+1, Expertise, (STR=19)

13: Fighter(10): Whirlwind Attack

14: Weapon Master(1): Weapon of Choice: Scythe

15: Weapon Master(2): Improved Critical: Scythe

16: Weapon Master(3): STR+1, (STR=20)

17: Bard(4)

18: Weapon Master(4): Great Cleave

19: Weapon Master(5)

20: Weapon Master(6): STR+1, (STR=21)

21: Weapon Master(7): Epic Weapon Focus: Scythe

22: Weapon Master(

23: Weapon Master(9)

24: Fighter(11): STR+1, Great Strength I, (STR=23)

25: Fighter(12): Epic Weapon Specialization: Scythe

26: Weapon Master(10)

27: Bard(5): Great Strength II, (STR=24)

28: Weapon Master(11): STR+1, (STR=25)

29: Weapon Master(12)

30: Weapon Master(13): Great Strength III, Overwhelming Critical: Scythe, (STR=26)

31: Weapon Master(14)

32: Weapon Master(15): STR+1, (STR=27)

33: Weapon Master(16): Great Strength IV, Devastating Critical: Scythe, (STR=28)

34: Weapon Master(17)

35: Weapon Master(18)

36: Weapon Master(19): STR+1, Great Strength V, Armor Skin, (STR=30)

37: Bard(6)

38: Weapon Master(20)

39: Weapon Master(21): Great Strength VI, (STR=31)

40: Weapon Master(22): STR+1, Epic Prowess, (STR=32)


Stats:

Hitpoints: 456

Skillpoints: 227

Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 22/18/24

Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8

BAB: 29

AB (max, naked): 49 (melee), 32 (ranged)

AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 22/32

Spell Casting: Bard(0)

Alignment Changes: 0


Skills:

Discipline 43(54), Intimidate 4(4), Listen 43(42), Lore 13(21), Perform 12(12), Spellcraft 38(40), Tumble 40(42), UMD 30(30)


01: Discipline(4), Save(16)

02: Discipline(1), Listen(5), Perform(3), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(5), UMD(5)

03: Discipline(1), Save(4)

04: Discipline(1), Save(

05: Discipline(1), Save(12)

06: Discipline(1), Save(16)

07: Discipline(1), Listen(5), Perform(3), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(5), UMD(5)

08: Discipline(1), Intimidate(2)

09: Discipline(1), Save(4)

10: Discipline(1), Save(

11: Discipline(1), Save(12)

12: Discipline(1), Listen(5), Perform(3), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(5)

13: Discipline(1), Intimidate(2)

14: Discipline(1), Listen(2), Save(2)

15: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(5)

16: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(

17: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(5), UMD(3)

18: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(3)

19: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(6)

20: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(9)

21: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(12)

22: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(15)

23: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(18)

24: Discipline(1), Save(22)

25: Discipline(1), Save(26)

26: Discipline(1), Listen(3), Save(27)

27: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(10), Tumble(10), UMD(12)

28: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)

29: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Save(2)

30: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(5)

31: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(

32: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(11)

33: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(14)

34: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(17)

35: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(20)

36: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(23)

37: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(3), Spellcraft(10), Tumble(10), UMD(5)

38: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)

39: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)

40: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)

 

I think that Dev Crit is not very useful with a WM Scythe build because the Scythe will do such massive damage on a crit already that Dev Crit is redundant. Here is a version without Dev Crit. It gets a higher Strength, AB, and health, and you get the benefits of the 7th level of WM earlier:

   Spoiler
   

Singing Scythe Master 2 (Fighter 8 / Bard 7 / Weapon Master 25)

Human, Non-Lawful

Playable 1 - 40


Abilities:

STR: 17 (34)

DEX: 13

CON: 14

WIS: 8

INT: 14

CHA: 8


Leveling Guide:

Human: (Quick to Master)

01: Fighter(1): Dodge, Weapon Proficiency Exotic, Weapon Focus: Scythe

02: Bard(1)

03: Fighter(2): Expertise, Mobility

04: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=18)

05: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Scythe

06: Fighter(5): Spring Attack

07: Bard(2)

08: Fighter(6): STR+1, Whirlwind Attack, (STR=19)

09: Weapon Master(1): Blind Fight, Weapon of Choice: Scythe

10: Weapon Master(2)

11: Weapon Master(3)

12: Bard(3): STR+1, Improved Critical: Scythe, (STR=20)

13: Weapon Master(4)

14: Weapon Master(5)

15: Weapon Master(6): Knockdown

16: Weapon Master(7): STR+1, (STR=21)

17: Bard(4)

18: Weapon Master(: Toughness

19: Weapon Master(9)

20: Weapon Master(10): STR+1, (STR=22)

21: Weapon Master(11): Great Strength I, (STR=23)

22: Weapon Master(12)

23: Weapon Master(13): Epic Weapon Focus: Scythe

24: Fighter(7): STR+1, Great Strength II, (STR=25)

25: Fighter(: Epic Weapon Specialization: Scythe

26: Weapon Master(14)

27: Bard(5): Great Strength III, (STR=26)

28: Weapon Master(15): STR+1, (STR=27)

29: Weapon Master(16): Armor Skin

30: Weapon Master(17): Great Strength IV, (STR=28)

31: Weapon Master(18)

32: Bard(6): STR+1, (STR=29)

33: Weapon Master(19): Great Strength V, Epic Prowess, (STR=30)

34: Weapon Master(20)

35: Weapon Master(21)

36: Weapon Master(22): STR+1, Great Strength VI, Epic Toughness I, (STR=32)

37: Bard(7)

38: Weapon Master(23)

39: Weapon Master(24): Great Strength VII, (STR=33)

40: Weapon Master(25): STR+1, Epic Toughness II, (STR=34)


Stats:

Hitpoints: 532

Skillpoints: 229

Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 21/18/24

Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8

BAB: 29

AB (max, naked): 51 (melee), 31 (ranged)

AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 21/32

Spell Casting:

Alignment Changes: 0


Skills:

Discipline 43(55), Intimidate 4(3), Listen 43(42), Lore 13(22), Perform 13(12), Spellcraft 38(40), Tumble 40(41), UMD 31(30)


01: Discipline(4), Save(16)

02: Discipline(1), Listen(5), Perform(4), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(5), UMD(3)

03: Discipline(1), Intimidate(2)

04: Discipline(1), Save(4)

05: Discipline(1), Save(

06: Discipline(1), Save(12)

07: Discipline(1), Listen(4), Perform(3), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(5), UMD(3)

08: Discipline(1), Intimidate(2)

09: Discipline(1), Listen(2), Save(2)

10: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(5)

11: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(

12: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(3), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(5)

13: Discipline(1), Listen(2), Lore(1), Save(1)

14: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(4)

15: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(7)

16: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(10)

17: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(5), UMD(5)

18: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Save(2)

19: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(5)

20: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(

21: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(11)

22: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(14)

23: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(17)

24: Discipline(1), Save(21)

25: Discipline(1), Save(25)

26: Discipline(1), Listen(3), Save(26)

27: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(11), Tumble(10), UMD(10)

28: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(3)

29: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(6)

30: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(9)

31: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(12)

32: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(3), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(5), UMD(5)

33: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(2), Save(1)

34: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(4)

35: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(7)

36: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(10)

37: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(5), UMD(5)

38: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)

39: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)

40: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)

 

If you really want Dev crit, then I suggest that the scythe is not the best choice of weapon. A scimitar will get lots more criticla hits, for more Dev Crit attempts, and it will allow you to use a shield, so you'll get hit less often. Here is a build with Dev Crit using a scimitar:

   Spoiler
   

Singing Scimitar Master (Fighter 8 / Bard 7 / Weapon Master 25)

Human, Non-Lawful

Playable 1 - 40


Abilities:

STR: 17 (34)

DEX: 13

CON: 14

WIS: 8

INT: 14

CHA: 8


Leveling Guide:

Human: (Quick to Master)

01: Fighter(1): Dodge, Mobility, Weapon Focus: Scimitar

02: Bard(1)

03: Fighter(2): Expertise, Blind Fight

04: Fighter(3): STR+1, (STR=18)

05: Fighter(4): Weapon Specialization: Scimitar

06: Fighter(5): Spring Attack

07: Bard(2)

08: Fighter(6): STR+1, Whirlwind Attack, (STR=19)

09: Weapon Master(1): Improved Critical: Scimitar, Weapon of Choice: Scimitar

10: Weapon Master(2)

11: Weapon Master(3)

12: Bard(3): STR+1, Power Attack, (STR=20)

13: Weapon Master(4)

14: Weapon Master(5)

15: Weapon Master(6): Cleave

16: Weapon Master(7): STR+1, (STR=21)

17: Bard(4)

18: Weapon Master(: Great Cleave

19: Weapon Master(9)

20: Weapon Master(10): STR+1, (STR=22)

21: Weapon Master(11): Great Strength I, (STR=23)

22: Weapon Master(12)

23: Weapon Master(13): Epic Weapon Focus: Scimitar

24: Fighter(7): STR+1, Great Strength II, (STR=25)

25: Fighter(: Epic Weapon Specialization: Scimitar

26: Weapon Master(14)

27: Bard(5): Great Strength III, (STR=26)

28: Weapon Master(15): STR+1, (STR=27)

29: Weapon Master(16): Overwhelming Critical: Scimitar

30: Weapon Master(17): Great Strength IV, (STR=28)

31: Weapon Master(18)

32: Bard(6): STR+1, (STR=29)

33: Weapon Master(19): Great Strength V, Devastating Critical: Scimitar, (STR=30)

34: Weapon Master(20)

35: Weapon Master(21)

36: Weapon Master(22): STR+1, Great Strength VI, Armor Skin, (STR=32)

37: Bard(7)

38: Weapon Master(23)

39: Weapon Master(24): Great Strength VII, (STR=33)

40: Weapon Master(25): STR+1, Epic Prowess, (STR=34)


Stats:

Hitpoints: 452

Skillpoints: 229

Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 21/18/24

Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +8

BAB: 29

AB (max, naked): 51 (melee), 31 (ranged)

AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 21/32

Spell Casting:

Alignment Changes: 0


Skills:

Discipline 43(55), Intimidate 4(3), Listen 43(42), Lore 13(22), Perform 13(12), Spellcraft 38(40), Tumble 40(41), UMD 31(30)


01: Discipline(4), Save(16)

02: Discipline(1), Listen(5), Perform(4), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(5), UMD(3)

03: Discipline(1), Intimidate(2)

04: Discipline(1), Save(4)

05: Discipline(1), Save(

06: Discipline(1), Save(12)

07: Discipline(1), Listen(4), Perform(3), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(5), UMD(3)

08: Discipline(1), Intimidate(2)

09: Discipline(1), Listen(2), Save(2)

10: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(5)

11: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(

12: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(3), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(5)

13: Discipline(1), Listen(2), Lore(1), Save(1)

14: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(4)

15: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(7)

16: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(10)

17: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(5), UMD(5)

18: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(1), Save(2)

19: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(5)

20: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(

21: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(11)

22: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(14)

23: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(17)

24: Discipline(1), Save(21)

25: Discipline(1), Save(25)

26: Discipline(1), Listen(3), Save(26)

27: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(11), Tumble(10), UMD(10)

28: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(3)

29: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(6)

30: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(9)

31: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(12)

32: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(3), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(5), UMD(5)

33: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(2), Save(1)

34: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(4)

35: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(7)

36: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(10)

37: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(5), Tumble(5), UMD(5)

38: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)

39: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)

40: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BindMind]

               

True, you'll end up with 3 more AB, 1 more damage (considering Bard Song), and more feats for health, but I feel like the 4 AC that build gives up is a huge hit, especially considering how troubled 2H builds are with AC in the first place. Also keep in mind you're giving up the potential for bard buffs.

 

Also, forgot to add the 4 AC RDD gives to the AC calculation. Woops.

 

I suppose giving up devastating critical in favour of toughness could be preferable, although a 42 DC fort-or-die is nothing to sneeze at. I guess it doesn't really matter though, most PW's ban or at least alter the feat anyway.

 

Anyway, thanks for the suggestion but I'm pretty bent on the class combination I have. I do appreciate it though.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               

OK. I'll return later with a build with those classes and with scythe, but without Dev Crit.

 

EDIT: ... and here it is:

   Spoiler
   

Draconic Scythe Master (Bard 11 / Red Dragon Disciple 10 / Weapon Master 19)
Human, Non-Lawful
Playable 1 - 40

Abilities:
STR: 16 (40)
DEX: 13
CON: 14 (16)
WIS: 8
INT: 14 (16)
CHA: 11 (13)

Leveling Guide:
Human: (Quick to Master)
01: Bard(1): Dodge, Mobility
02: Bard(2)
03: Bard(3): Weapon Proficiency Exotic
04: Bard(4): STR+1, (STR=17)
05: Bard(5)
06: Red Dragon Disciple(1): Weapon Focus: Scythe
07: Red Dragon Disciple(2): (STR=19)
08: Red Dragon Disciple(3): STR+1, (STR=20)
09: Red Dragon Disciple(4): Spring Attack, (STR=22)
10: Red Dragon Disciple(5)
11: Red Dragon Disciple(6)
12: Bard(6): STR+1, Expertise, (STR=23)
13: Red Dragon Disciple(7): (CON=16)
14: Red Dragon Disciple(
15: Bard(7): Whirlwind Attack
16: Weapon Master(1): STR+1, Weapon of Choice: Scythe, (STR=24)
17: Bard(
18: Weapon Master(2): Blind Fight
19: Weapon Master(3)
20: Weapon Master(4): STR+1, (STR=25)
21: Red Dragon Disciple(9): Great Strength I, (STR=26), (INT=16)
22: Red Dragon Disciple(10): {Darkvision}, (STR=30), (CHA=13)
23: Weapon Master(5)
24: Weapon Master(6): STR+1, Great Strength II, (STR=32)
25: Weapon Master(7)
26: Weapon Master(
27: Bard(9): Great Strength III, (STR=33)
28: Weapon Master(9): STR+1, (STR=34)
29: Weapon Master(10)
30: Weapon Master(11): Improved Critical: Scythe
31: Weapon Master(12)
32: Weapon Master(13): STR+1, Epic Weapon Focus: Scythe, (STR=35)
33: Weapon Master(14): Great Strength IV, (STR=36)
34: Weapon Master(15)
35: Weapon Master(16): Armor Skin
36: Weapon Master(17): STR+1, Great Strength V, (STR=38)
37: Bard(10)
38: Weapon Master(18)
39: Weapon Master(19): Great Strength VI, Epic Prowess, (STR=39)
40: Bard(11): STR+1, (STR=40)

Stats:
Hitpoints: 460
Skillpoints: 262
Saving Throws (Fortitude/Will/Reflex): 22/22/23
Saving Throw bonuses: Spells: +9
BAB: 26
AB (max, naked): 49 (melee), 28 (ranged)
AC (naked/mundane armor/shield only): 25/33
Spell Casting: Bard(3)
Alignment Changes: 0

Skills:
Discipline 43(58), Intimidate 4(5), Listen 43(42), Lore 30(44), Perform 17(18), Spellcraft 42(45), Tumble 40(41), UMD 39(40)

01: Discipline(4), Intimidate(2), Listen(4), Lore(1), Perform(3), Spellcraft(4), Tumble(4), UMD(4)
02: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(2), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1)
03: Discipline(1), Intimidate(1), Listen(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1)
04: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(2)
05: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(1), UMD(1), Save(1)
06: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(3)
07: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(5)
08: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(7)
09: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(9)
10: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(11)
11: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Save(13)
12: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(4), Tumble(7), UMD(7)
13: Discipline(1), Intimidate(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1)
14: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(2), Save(1)
15: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(1), Tumble(3), UMD(2)
16: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(3)
17: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(3), Tumble(2), UMD(3)
18: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)
19: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3)
20: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(2), Save(1)
21: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(4)
22: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(2), Spellcraft(2)
23: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(4)
24: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(
25: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(12)
26: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(16)
27: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(3), Tumble(10), UMD(9)
28: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(4)
29: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(4)
30: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(4)
31: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(4)
32: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(
33: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(12)
34: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(16)
35: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(20)
36: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Save(24)
37: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Spellcraft(10), Tumble(10), UMD(10)
38: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(4)
39: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Lore(3), Save(1)
40: Discipline(1), Listen(1), Perform(2), Spellcraft(5)

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

What exactly is your goal here?

 

Compared to something like a Fighter 12/Rogue 3/WM 25 you're losing 5 AB, 6 damage and a ton of feats (and you don't have Blind Fight which is often extremely important nor something like Knockdown/Disarm) in exchange for 4 AC and 8 minutes of +2 AB/damage a day?  Why Bard/RDD specifically?

 

I think that Dev Crit is not very useful with a WM Scythe build because the Scythe will do such massive damage on a crit already that Dev Crit is redundant. Here is a version without Dev Crit. It gets a higher Strength, AB, and health, and you get the benefits of the 7th level of WM earlier:

 

It's no more redundant that it is on a Greatsword -- average Scythe swing is 200% of the base while a Greatsword is 180%.  Yeah, if you're fighting enemies that die in one scythe crit then it doesn't help, but those enemies would die incredibly fast with or without Dev Crit (critting with a greatsword would do 60%+ of their health anyway if one scythe crit kills).  Dev Crit in general is oriented at high HP mobs that would take a while to chew through without instant death.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               

A greatsword would be better than a scythe for dev crit because it has a wider critical threat range and therefore more chances to get that dev crit. If you only almost kill with a scythe crit (x5 with WM), the dev crit would still be partly redundant. The usefulness is not gone completely, but enough so to not be worth investing so many feats in an already-feat-starved build. The traditional wisdom is that if you are going for dev crit, you want more crits, rather than bigger crits.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

A greatsword would be better than a scythe for dev crit because it has a wider critical threat range and therefore more chances to get that dev crit.

 

Solely in terms of forcing the Dev Crit save more often, yes, but the Scythe still deals 10%ish more damage overall to crit vulnerable foes who can resist Dev Crit.  We're talking a 40%ish chance to crit (greatsword) versus 25%ish chance to crit (scythe).  You'll be critting often either way and that's the same ratio as critting 8% of the time versus 5% of the time.  Not like one crits 5% of the time and the other 50%.

 

The traditional wisdom is that if you are going for dev crit, you want more crits, rather than bigger crits.

 

If your goal is simply to proc Dev Crit a lot, sure.  But there are many builds that aren't feat starved and can pick up Dev Crit as a side bonus.  Is Dev Crit less effective in those cases?  Sure, but that doesn't make it useless or even close to it.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Nick The Noodle]

               

Eyo, chaps! Bit of a newbie here.

 

I've always been one for strange builds in games, even if it's not 100% optimal. However, this doesn't mean I'm against optimization.

 

I'd love some assistance with theorycrafting a Weapon Master / Red Dragon Disciple / Bard for full-epic PW's. I feel it has the potential to be quite strong despite its feat-starved starved and feat-reliant nature. Note, I don't mind the build being weak from 1-18 assuming it's competitive around level 35.

 

The nice thing about the build is that it has just enough feats pre-epic to acquire 4 levels of WM to accomplish 16 BAB, and therefore acquiring the 4th attack.

 

The build I theorycrafted is as follows (final stats at the bottom):

Human   8 Bard / 10 RDD / 22 WM

16 STR / 13 DEX / 14 CON / 14 INT / 8 WIS / 11 CHA

 

1 Bard(1), Expertise, Dodge

2 Bard(2)

3 Bard(3), Exotic Weapon Prof.

4 Bard(4), +STR(17)

5 Bard(5)

6 Bard(6), Weapon Focus(Scythe)

7 Bard(7)

8 RDD(1), +STR(18)

9 RDD(2), Mobility, +2STR(20)

10 RDD(3)

11 RDD(4), +2STR(22)

12 RDD(5), Spring Attack, +STR(21)

13 RDD(6)

14 RDD(7), +2CON(16)

15 RDD(, Whirlwind Attack

16 WM(1), +STR(22)

17 WM(2)

18 WM(3), Heavy Armor Prof.

19 WM(4)

20 WM(5), +STR(23)

21 RDD(9), Improved Critical(Scythe), +2INT(16)

22 WM(6)

23 WM(7)

24 RDD(10), Power Attack, +5STR(28), +2CHA(13)

25 WM(

26 WM(9)

27 WM(10), Cleave

28 WM(11), +STR(29)

29 WM(12)

30 WM(13), Great Cleave, Overwhelming Critical

31 WM(14)

32 WM(15), +STR(30)

33 WM(16), Armor Skin, Devastating Critical

34 WM(17)

35 WM(18)

36 WM(19), Great Strength I(31), Epic Weapon Focus(Scythe), +STR(32)

37 Bard(

38 WM(20)

39 WM(21), Epic Prowess

40 WM(22), Great Strength II(33), +STR(34)

 

Ability Score:

34 STR / 13 DEX / 16 CON / 16 INT / 8 WIS / 13 CHA

 

Mundane Combat Stats:

42/37/32/27 AB

2d4+18 (17-20/x4)

26 AC

363 HP

 

Saves:

22 Fort

22 Ref

21 Will

 

Skills (214):

40(41) Tumble

43(55) Discipline

40(43) Spellcraft

4(5) Intimidate

8(11) Lore

15(16) Perform

27(30) Search

33(32) Listen

 

Thoughts? I'm open to any and all criticism. Thank you for your time.

Too much of a specialist for my taste imho.  Against undead, constructs and others that are immune to criticals, your killer is less effective than many other melee alternatives.

 

Try Human Paladin 29 / Sorcerer 1 / RDD 10 (P10/S1/RDD10 at L20) or Elf Bard 26 / RDD 10 / BG 4 (Bd8/RDD8/BG4 at L20).  Both these allow for Divine Might, 4 attacks at L20, and devastating critical.  For Dev Crit, threat range is more important than multiplier, so the weapon of choice would be rapier or similar.  Divine Might is useful against everyone.

 

An Elf Bard 5 / RDD 10 / Arcane Archer 35 (Bd5/RDD8/AA7 at L20) is another option.  You don't have Divine Might, but a devastating critical missile weapon can be incredibly useful against spellcasters running Melfs Acid Sheath et al.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Empyre65]

               

Solely in terms of forcing the Dev Crit save more often, yes, but the Scythe still deals 10%ish more damage overall to crit vulnerable foes who can resist Dev Crit.  We're talking a 40%ish chance to crit (greatsword) versus 25%ish chance to crit (scythe).  You'll be critting often either way and that's the same ratio as critting 8% of the time versus 5% of the time.  Not like one crits 5% of the time and the other 50%.

 

 

If your goal is simply to proc Dev Crit a lot, sure.  But there are many builds that aren't feat starved and can pick up Dev Crit as a side bonus.  Is Dev Crit less effective in those cases?  Sure, but that doesn't make it useless or even close to it.

40% is a lot more than 25%. You would be critting more than one-and-a-half times as often. A scimitar (or rapier or kukri) would bring that to 55% (assuming keen), which is more than twice 25%.

I'm a big fan of dev crit and a strength build without it feels like a wasted opportunity, but this build is feat starved and dev crit on a scythe is not worth losing blind fight and four great strength feats.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BindMind]

               

What exactly is your goal here?

 

Compared to something like a Fighter 12/Rogue 3/WM 25 you're losing 5 AB, 6 damage and a ton of feats (and you don't have Blind Fight which is often extremely important nor something like Knockdown/Disarm) in exchange for 4 AC and 8 minutes of +2 AB/damage a day?  Why Bard/RDD specifically?

 

Plus Darkvision, immunities, and Bard spells (and the bard song which applies to others, not just yourself). Well, and wings, which I'll admit is my initial reason for wanting to mock up this build, but I see more in it.

 

However, I didn't think about the 6 damage loss before... That's a pretty significant hit.

 

Perhaps I should give up on the WM and focus on fighter. Oh well, I had a dream.

 

16 Bard / 14 Fighter / 10 RDD it is then.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

40% is a lot more than 25%. You would be critting more than one-and-a-half times as often. A scimitar (or rapier or kukri) would bring that to 55% (assuming keen), which is more than twice 25%.

 

60% more often to be exact.

 

Think of it this way: let's say you could imbue a Greatsword with the ability to kill weak foes 100% of the time.  OR you could imbue a scythe to kill weak foes 62.5% of the time and do 10% more damage to tough enemies that aren't crit immune.

 

Which is better?  Well, obviously it depends!  If weak enemies are the main foe and tough enemies are crit immune, then obviously the greatsword is better.  If weak enemies are less prevalent and there are a lot of tough enemies that are not crit immune, then the scythe is better.

 

You're focusing on Dev Crit being the primary end instead of it being a bonus that will help kill minor enemies more quickly (and even if a scythe crit nearly kills a weak enemy, Dev Crit can still save 1-3 more swings to finish it off).  Obviously if a crit with a scythe will kill every non crit immune enemy then Dev Crit is useless, but I hardly think you should plan a build around that kind of environment.

 

I'm a big fan of dev crit and a strength build without it feels like a wasted opportunity, but this build is feat starved and dev crit on a scythe is not worth losing blind fight and four great strength feats.

 

I would say it depends on the environment.  In HotU, for example, you don't need Blind Fight, your AB is already high enough that you won't be missing as a WM, and magic items provide enough extra damage that you won't really miss the 3 lost damage.  In difficult environments, this build has far more severe issues than lacking blind fight/4 total strength.

 

However, I didn't think about the 6 damage loss before... That's a pretty significant hit.

It's actually like 1/4 as significant as the AB loss.  Doing like 10-15% more damage per hit matters less than hitting 40-60% more often.

 

16 Bard / 14 Fighter / 10 RDD it is then.

 

That's probably a better idea in general, but why not go 20+ bard at that point for Lasting Inspiration?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BindMind]

               

That's probably a better idea in general, but why not go 20+ bard at that point for Lasting Inspiration?

 

3 feats for a longer song? :S

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Are you really short on feats without WM?

 

And if your environment is rest restricted at all, it can be a big deal.  It basically means you can double the amount of enemies you can Curse Song since your own Bard Song lasts ten times as long.  If you can rest whenever you want, obviously it's not that important.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_BindMind]

               

3 feats is 3 feats. That could be going towards improved knockdown, epic fortitude, epic skill focuses, etc.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Level 25 bard is an extra AB and AC effectively (due to Curse Song), and you also gain 1 to ALL skills per level of bard at that point, basically.  16 bard is +4 to all skills, 25 bard is +14 to all skills.  That's like an Epic Skill Focus in everything (and it means you can also apply that extra penalty to ENEMIES via Curse Song).  It also makes you undispellable except to Mord's Disjunction.  Also gives you more/longer War Cry uses and more/longer/higher damage Wounding Whispers.

 

If you actually find you can't fit in the feats you want reasonably then that other build is still certainly quite powerful, but Bard offers some amazing bonuses (especially in group play and environments with limited resting) at higher levels.