Why do NWN modders avoid NWN2

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               

I dont realy like NWN2 for a various of reasons (i gave it a honest and serious try back then but no sorry). AND i dont have the time to work with 2 games that are so time consuming. I mean when i focus on a tileset for nwn it´s all i care about and why would i focus on nwn when i also try to build something in nwn2 ? I would work on 2 things but half hearted and that doesnt makes sense for me.

But that i dont like nwn2 in general is the main point. I just dont feel it and I can do almost everything with our game so why to waste my time on part 2 which is nothing like the thing i realy enjoy ?

 

Also the content we have and still can produce for NWN is superior compared to nwn2 imo and aurora is so easy and fast to work with NO i´m not stupid and split my time into "could be good in nwn2" and "i know it´s great with NWN". I know what my thoughts were when nwn2 just gave me frustrations and no joy working with it. I had a little bit of a hard time with nwn also because i was damn angry how someone could f**** up something that could have been NWN+ but no instead they did it completely wrong imo. After that i always kept a huge distance to nwn2!

 

It´s also the thing i can work on nwn in a state of dream. It´s like blind walking in an area you know since you was a little kid. I just love it '>

But i respect the guys who work with nwn2 for sure because i know it´s not an easy thing and they did great stuff no doubt about it. They just have to accept we are better lol and whatever they try we already did hehehehe! '> I´m so biased and arrogant when it comes to our diamond of a game i tell you i´m completely immune vs any critics cuz i know no one can kick the throne we are on just a little bit aside... '>

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Arkalezth]

               

I'm not sure I understand the question. What is meant by "Why do NWN modders avoid NWN2?" How is is that we are supposed to be "avoiding" NWN2?

I'm not sure of the goal either (or whether there is one at all). I don't think it's meant to "steal" modders for NWN2, but, apparently, there are NWN modders who are willing to move ahead and leave NWN behind, but don't see NWN2 as an option. It all derived from this thread: http://forum.bioware...like-nwn-since/

The OP in that thread asks "why isn't there a game like NWN", and lists his requirements:
 

1: A general purpose roleplaying system integrated in their game mechanics.
2: Toolset and modability support.
3: Multiplayer freedom to DM and host the kind of server for the kind of game you want.

Like I said on the other thread, I'm just a player so I can't give an opinion about modding, and personal preferences for one game or another are perfectly fine, but I can think of at least one game that fits those criteria and which that poster seems to be ignoring. Unless s/he means both NWNs, but then there's another poster that says that NWN2 and its multiplayer was/is a failure because... I'm not sure why (and I happen to absolutely disagree, but whatever). Anyway, Kaldor addresses that on the NWN2 version of this thread.
 
Also, every time a thread like this spawns, there always seem to be some posts that talk about NWN2 as if we were in 2006 (generally speaking, not directed to anyone in particular right here). Well, we aren't. In 2006 I didn't even have a computer that could run NWN2.

That's good to hear. When did that become possible? It certainly wasn't the case when I needed it.

I don't know exactly when, but it's been a while. Here's the mod: http://www.nexusmods...nter2/mods/92/?

That said, maybe it's just me, but I don't see horses as such a big deal (and I play on a server that has them). But I guess some of my reasons to generally prefer NWN2 as a player can be quite silly as well.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kamal_]

               

Nice!

Not enough to tip the scales, but NICE!

Can you provide a link that describes implementation?

http://www.nexusmods...nter2/mods/92/?
nwn2 doesn't have the vast variety of mount creatures I see for nwn1 such as all the great creatures draygoth made, but it does have horse mounts. I haven't implemented it myself.

video of it in use on a PW

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Arkalezth]

               Yeah, that's the PW I play on. The one in the video is a basic horse, but there's a ride skill and better horses if you have enough ranks on it (better speed,stats, etc.). Mounted combat isn't working properly at the moment, but I've heard it's possible. I don't know the specifics.

It's been ages since I've used mounts on NWN1, so I can't really compare/remember.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rogueknight333]

               

It might be more worthwhile to inquire as to why NWN2 modders avoid NWN. Given the clear superiority of the latter, that, rather than the reverse, would seem to be the phenomenon that calls for some sort of explanation.  '>

 

Since I assume the last sentence will not be taken by all as self-evident, however, I shall proceed to give my own answer to the OP's question.

 

I'm not sure of the goal either (or whether there is one at all). I don't think it's meant to "steal" modders for NWN2, but, apparently, there are NWN modders who are willing to move ahead and leave NWN behind, but don't see NWN2 as an option. It all derived from this thread: http://forum.bioware...like-nwn-since/

 

If that is indeed from whence this discussion is derived, it seems my own contribution to that particular thread may have been overlooked:

 

...The "sweet spot" for a toolset between versatility/potential and ease of use. 

NWN managed to achieve an almost perfect balance between these two. It is relatively easy to learn how to use the NWN toolset, and once learned, one can produce content with it relatively quickly. At the same time, it is versatile enough to enormously modify the type of gaming experience offered for those who wish to do so. Most game toolsets fall short in one or other of these areas: either the toolset is too simple and does not allow one to make anything all that different from the official campaign it is using as a base, or else it requires more technical skills (or simply more time to work with) than the typical amateur would-be modder is likely to have.


For me personally this aspect of NWN is enormously important. If I need to, I can throw together a basic area in the NWN toolset (excluding "meatier" elements like scripts, conversations and encounters) in less than 15 minutes (in fact, I will probably spend a lot more time than that fussing over details, but it is still a relatively quick process). Given that I, one guy working off and on in his spare time, am embarked on the insanely ambitious project of making an RPG campaign that rivals professionally produced ones in size and scope, that kind of ease of use is absolutely vital. Since I also aim to surpass such campaigns in quality (at least as far as my particular tastes as a player are concerned), I also need a toolset sufficiently versatile to alter the way many things work by default, by, for example, creating a more robust ethical system in which all kinds of actions a PC performs can affect alignment. I find it hard to imagine even attempting to do what I am doing with anything other than the NWN toolset...

 

The above was not written with reference to NWN2 in particular, but I expect its relevance to that particular comparison is obvious. I certainly could not say of the NWN2 toolset what I there say about that of NWN. The most fundamental purpose of a toolset like that in either NWN game is to save time, and NWN2's toolset is far too time consuming to achieve it adequately. 

 

...But the point is that there are so many tools out now that are easy to use, that are far more powerful than NWN2, that I don't understand why I'd use it because I find myself constantly frustrated with using the D&D ruleset in a computer game anyway, wanting to work around it, or kill it off, or make it work rather than totally suck which is so damn hard to do in anything but pen and paper. So all that to say that if I was going to seriously make a single player game again, I'd rather start from scratch than bother with NWN2...

 

Indeed, if time is no object why would one not use something like Unity? By comparison with that on the one hand, and NWN's toolset on the other, NWN2's toolset combines the worst of both worlds.

 

Furthermore, while the much-discussed deficiencies of NWN2's toolset are the chief reason I do not take much interest in that particular game, they are not the only one. I also do not much care for the actual gameplay of NWN2. Far too many of the game's systems are ridiculously kludgy and over-complicated. It also demonstrates 3E D&D's feature bloat at its worst: it has a ton of prestige classes, subraces, feats, etc. that appear to have been thrown into the game willy-nilly without any sort of logic or thought to the balancing consequences of doing so. Some of them are absurdly overpowered, others bordering (or more than bordering) on useless. To some extent this problem exists in NWN too, of course, but not to such an extreme. In NWN it is kinda, sort-of possible to balance a module for most of the character types likely to play it, if one is not too perfectionist about doing so. Trying to balance an NWN2 module would be a nightmare.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               

I can FEEL the anger growing in the tomb of armageDON. Beware my little foe i come terribly when I the overload of dampf have to leave the throne of inSANITY. '>

 

ps

and the topic is WHY NWN modders avoid nwn2 and not why think otherwise '> ... but I know that every topic is open to argue all the why nots into it from the opposite '>. We had that back then and nothing has changed I guess.

 

But joking aside and making a point someone has to show me a "forest" in nwn2 that looks like a forest. And dont tell me that having more high poly trees that look stupid (they arent even trees realy usefull to create a forest) is better as something done for NWN that fits the whole thing. Even the "forest" in oblivion were not forests at all. The trees looked great but the so called "forests" were just dull and uninspiring "landscapes"anyway. So one should compare content in it´s whole context only then you can judge the work correctly. And thats what i mean with superiority which should be clear. A high poly model doesnt means to be good when it´s like an accident. You can also argue that some counter strike maps from mappers where much better then many stuff from today, why ? because they were innovative and stood out in it´s time and still do. But when you have no ability to see things like a hawk from above in it´s complete sense then others come and nitpick on little details only why this rock is so strange looking when the setting is a strange place '>

I wanted to make that clear because it was not an attack on nwn2´s modders ability to create content or build modules. I know they or you (i dont know you but maybe you ?) did great stuff... i already said that '>

 

so thanks for accepting my wisdom!

 

And i dont know why the nwn2 guys never challenged themself to create forest content. They just accepted the fact to work with this stuff and ok, then i guess it´s just something we dont really need. Even if forest are one of the greatest things in adventures imo. Not that my pov must matter to anyone else but hey... you know!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rjshae]

               

It might be more worthwhile to inquire as to why NWN2 modders avoid NWN. Given the clear superiority of the latter, that, rather than the reverse, would seem to be the phenomenon that calls for some sort of explanation.  '>

 

Personally I prefer modding NWN2 over NWN for aesthetic reasons, such as smooth shading, better use of shadows, and generally more detailed and realistic models. I just get more emotional satisfaction from seeing a finished model in NWN2.

 

The mass of prior work in NWN doesn't provide an incentive for me to switch because [a] that content is mainly useful to builders and it represents a much worn trail and leaves fewer new areas to explore.

 

*shrug* To each their own. '>

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Arkalezth]

               

Stuff about forests.

I don't understand. Are you saying that proper forests cannot be built in NWN2, or that you haven't seen any module that does it properly, or what? And how is NWN1 different in that regard?

I'd say that I've seen "forests that look like forests" in NWN2, but I'm not sure how that is measured.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               

Feel free to show me a "forest" done with nwn2. And yes, NWN is very different. We have different types of forests created ourself that all feel very unique in it´s own way. We have literally everything created by ourself and are still doing so. And what we have established by doing so gives every builder a very easy, fast and unique way to express his own vision of what the forest should look like without working a whole week on one area with a few different options what other terrain might be interconnected.

 

ps

and before this turns into a little bit of heated debate lets not forget these are two different things. NWN and nwn2 are two completely different kind of games when it comes to art, design and modding in general '>

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Arkalezth]

               I'm not arguing anything and I play both games, so I'm pretty much neutral. I just don't know what you are exactly referring to or what is wrong with forests in NWN2. Just saying that they don't look or feel like forests is quite vague, and I don't know if I can show you a proper forest because I don't know what a "proper forest" is by your standards in the first place.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_-Semper-]

               

Feel free to show me a "forest" done with nwn2. And yes, NWN is very different. We have different types of forests created ourself that all feel very unique in it´s own way.

 

i know that you were setting a trap (aka ravencast forest), but please don't compare unique tilesets created with the help of an external program with "vanilla" content. the same can be achieved with the electron engine. we can import tilesets and treat them as external areas. we can create the same area with terrain sculpting and imported custom textures. we can even mix and match terrain sculpting with speedtrees, custom mesh trees and placeables (also premodeled terrain parts), and scale them on the fly. we can place rivers, seas, ponds and waterfalls wherever and in whatever look we want, without premade and exact copies of the same or partly different looking tiles.

it should be obvious that an almost exact copy of a nwn1 area can be imported/created within nwn2. only custom sky domes are difficult because in nwn2 they will lack a day/night cycle.

 

it's true that it takes time to create a very good looking external area, but the same time (perhaps even more because of uving and texturing) was spent to create a custom tileset for nwn1.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               

It was not meant to be a trap even now that you said it it could have looked so. And yeah i´m honest that i´m pretty biased and proud of my own work but that doesnt mean that i see my own stuff as better (how it works within the game you work with) as the content from other people. So while i´m biased due to my own interest or mens hours i invested i´m always open to others content from where i can learn or be inspired by. Thats why i said we cant realy compare both games for a reason. We had much more time to work for NWN and our content isnt as highend as yours while ours on the other hand maybe more diverse or unqiue whatever. We two have pros and cons with our games '>

 

And we two have a completey different way on how to work on stuff. I dont think any of you nwn2 guys know how i start or work on exterior tilesets. I think i have a very different mindset because of the limitations i have and so on....

 

well, we could debate a whole day about content creation and limitations you and I have and what side can do but in the end it will end as just we dont agree '> cuz when i´m honest i dont know anything that i havent done yet with NWN that is basic modeling or VFX stuff.

               
               

               

                     Modifié par NWN_baba yaga, 06 octobre 2014 - 05:19 .
                     
                  

            

[Legacy_-Semper-]

               

it just sounded like you tried to argue about that nwn2 ain't being capable of rendering a forest area, while in fact it's possible to create the exact same area as in nwn. whereas the other way around is a dead end.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_NWN_baba yaga]

               

Yes you have to invest a lot of time in tilesets for NWN and everything is possible with it if you want it. Thats why I do content because i love it and it is challenging too and thats the reward. And i didnt said the engine cant render just that you didnt have done it yet or i may have missed it. Until now i have not seen a forest in nwn2 style that looks like a forest to me. Is it easier for NWN to do so, yeah sure and it will never look as "fancy" but that doesnt matter to me. It´s the feeling. I still love old school fps games that have atmosphere... '>

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rjshae]

               

Well again it falls down to personal preference. I've lived next to forests for most of my life and the exterior areas in NWN2 seem perfectly suited to building a forest much like in my back yard; down to the randomized shapes, swaying motions, and seasonal leaf variants. NWN2 could use some more fallen and rotted tree placeables though.