Why do NWN modders avoid NWN2

[Legacy_Tarot Redhand]

               

Running since  22 August 2014 there is a thread with the same name as this one that has been running in the NwN 2 general discussion area. For whatever reason they have chosen to discus it among themselves instead of asking us why. In order to both correct this imbalance and to get more responses I have created this thread here.

 

Before we go any further I should mention that I have got both fully patched games with all their official expansions sitting on my hard drive and neither is less stable than the other. In other words, when fully patched NwN 2 is no more buggy than NwN.

 

As I have already posted my reasons for not modding NwN 2 in that original thread I will not be repeating myself here. This doesn't however preclude me posting comments sometime in the future.

 

So reasons anyone?

 

TR

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Zwerkules]

               

Before we go any further I should mention that I have got both fully patched games with all their official expansions sitting on my hard drive and neither is less stable than the other. In other words, when fully patched NwN 2 is no more buggy than NwN.

 

Interesting. Did you ever try to make an area with NWN2? You say it isn't buggy?

For me it has been buggy since the very first version and those bugs haven't been fixed until now.

The weird thing is that a lot of people have no problems with the toolset, while I still have the same problems I had from the start and that is three computers later with different setups and different graphic cards (I had both ATI and NVidia), the only thing they have in common is that none of them had Intel processors.

I still get random and not so random crashes when using the toolset. Some of the wizards always crash the toolset, I don't recall which those were at the moment. There are some weird graphical glitches in the GUI which make it hard to create and paint terrain, but not impossible. I might have lived with that, but not with all those crashes.

 

As for creating custom content for NWN2, well, you need 3dmax for that, gmax is not enough, so unless you're a student or you're willing to sell your firstborn (not that I even have one) to be able to buy that program you're out of luck.

 

I also dislike the extremely blurred textures of NWN2 a lot. That is something that can be changed and I would have done so, if modding NWN2 would ever have been an option.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               

i'm not a serious modder myself, so take my pov as that of an outsider. nwn2 from what i heard had numerous downsides, some of which have been fixed by now, some didn't.

 

those that did get fixed came a bit too late. the issue of nwn as a modders palyground was, that nwn was at the time well estabilshed with a sparkling community and tons of custom content. nwn2 released without a dm client, was very buggy (nwn was, too at it's time of release. but no longer when nwn 2 was released) and required people to adapt and improve their modding skills.

 

it just didn't gain enough tracktion fast enough. people played the single player campaign and then returned to their NWN PWs (because the nwn 2 PWs were still lacking compared to the established nwn ones). nwn, as far as i can tell has at all times kept double the online player count than nwn2.

 

some of the problems that still persist today are the improved level of required modding skills (though yes, it looks ridiculous compared to modern games and their thriving modding communities. maybe nwn 2 just came at the wrong time, when stuff like real 3d environments and normal maps were above most people's heads). less custom content was produced in terms of 3d assets, and nwn had the easier level setup. you just drop tiles and you have a level. less tech savy people, who none the less were great storytellers would feel more attracted by nwn's system. and they could easily use the assets produced by those with the required tech skills. in nwn 2 you at least have to understand the new 3d ground painting stuff.

 

the graphics: both games are horribly outdated by todays standards. but personally, the graphical level of nwn 2 (and that whole era of early normal mapped games) just looks the worst nowadays. i do in fact believe, that nwn looks better than nwn2. nwn has reached the point, where it just looks oldschool. nwn 2 instead looks like something from deep inside the uncanny valley.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tchos]

               

As for creating custom content for NWN2, well, you need 3dmax for that, gmax is not enough

 

I keep seeing people saying this, and it's not true.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Grani]

               

I guess it might be because of the larger playerbase and filebase of NWN. You might say "uh, but that's the result, not the cause", but I believe it's both a cause and a result. A vicious circle.

 

When NWN2 was released, NWN had already been available for quite some time. So it's natural that it had more content (from expansion packs and community effort alike). Thus, NWN was most likely a more popular option for potential module builders.

This, in turn, caused even more content to be released for NWN1. So on and so on...

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Gruftlord]

               

 oh and another more up to date point: NWN runs on my tablet nowadays, while my gaming rig runs a modded Skyrim in 3d vision (and latelly Wasteland 2).

 

some arguments i geatherd from the NWN2 forum thread:

NWN2 makes it more comlicated to add custom animations, and therefor new creature. surely another part why the custom content stayed smaller compared to NWN.

one convincing point i read in NWN2's favor are enhanced follower/group commands. unfortunatelly, that doesn't convince me in any way nowadays. NWN is only installed for occasional PW gaming. A group system seems like a purelly singleplayer thing (correct me if i'm wrong). and for single player, i have switched to other games long ago (aside from a nostalgia itch every other year, but of course only NWN1 can satisfy that for me).

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kamal_]

               

Running since  22 August 2014 there is a thread with the same name as this one that has been running in the NwN 2 general discussion area. For whatever reason they have chosen to discus it among themselves instead of asking us why. In order to both correct this imbalance and to get more responses I have created this thread here.
 
Before we go any further I should mention that I have got both fully patched games with all their official expansions sitting on my hard drive and neither is less stable than the other. In other words, when fully patched NwN 2 is no more buggy than NwN.
 
As I have already posted my reasons for not modding NwN 2 in that original thread I will not be repeating myself here. This doesn't however preclude me posting comments sometime in the future.
 
So reasons anyone?
 
TR

The nwn2 thread is here: http://forum.bioware...ers-avoid-nwn2/
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Tchos]

               

one convincing point i read in NWN2's favor are enhanced follower/group commands. unfortunatelly, that doesn't convince me in any way nowadays. NWN is only installed for occasional PW gaming. A group system seems like a purelly singleplayer thing (correct me if i'm wrong).

 

You're not wrong -- the party system is for single-player.

 

For those who may not know what you're talking about, I'll give more detail about the NWN2 party system.  You control a party of anywhere from 2-6 characters (there's no actual limit in modules, but in the official campaigns it's almost never more than 6).  These are not like henchmen.  At any time, you can click on a companion and become the companion (possessing them), at which point your main PC becomes an AI-controlled companion.  Your point of view shifts to the companion, and you move and act as the companion, with full control of inventory, conversations, feats, abilities, etc.  If your companion is a wizard, you now have a spellbook that you can customise and cast spells from, etc. 

 

You can choose to allow the companions to act through their AI, or you can pause and initiate actions with each companion before unpausing, if you prefer to micromanage their actions.  This system is the same as in Baldur's Gate and the other Infinity Engine games, Dragon Age: Origins, etc.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Urk]

               

Electron is an AWESOME toolset and the NWN2 party system IS better. 


If I had unlimited resources and the ability to spend as much time modding as I wanted I would be all over it. But I don't, and in terms of the amount of time I need to invest in a toolset to accomplish a specific goal, Aurora crushes Electron. Everything is just faster in Aurora. There is a price paid in flexibility, for certain, but so far nothing that can't be overcome by creative design or custom content. And this brings us to another of Aurora's significant advantages...


Aurora is easier to create content for (especially in regards to animating models), it's been around longer, and it has a larger dedicated fan base. This means more Custom Content. Almost anything you might want to spruce up a story can not only be quickly and easily be added to the game, there's a VERY high probability that someone has already done it for you. 


Third... In two words...

Rideable mounts. 


Finally... I build for a multiplayer environment, so NWN2's superior henchman system is not a significant advantage. Without giving players the ability to pause the action, which really can't be done in a MP environment, the NWN2 party system becomes pretty much unmanageable. 

 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_kamal_]

               

Third... In two words...
Rideable mounts.

NWN2 has rideable mounts.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Urk]

               

Nice!


Not enough to tip the scales, but NICE!


Can you provide a link that describes implementation? 

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_AndarianTD]

               

I'm not sure I understand the question. What is meant by "Why do NWN modders avoid NWN2?" How is is that we are supposed to be "avoiding" NWN2?


Does the question mean, why do we still mod for NWN instead of modding for NWN2? If we did, then wouldn't we no longer be NWN modders? In that case, doesn't the question become, why haven't we abandoned NWN in favor of NWN2? It comes across as just a bit less friendly when phrased in that way.

 

Now, if the intention is to ask, why is it that some in the NWN community are as hostile as they are toward NWN2, then that's another (and at least more reasonable) question. Since I emphatically don't share that hostility, I'll have to leave it to others who do to comment on. Speaking as a NWN modder, however, the reasons I never switched to NWN2 are as follows.


1) I started my project in NWN1, and changing engines between chapters was a problematic proposition at best. (I floated the idea a number of times, and it was met with considerable hostility on the part of my player base.) My interest in modding was to develop that project, and I had no desire to start a new one just to be able to mod for a new game.

 

2) At the time when I could have considered switching (circa 2007), NWN2 was still too unstable and not mature enough as a platform to do so. It was also extremely impoverished with regard to custom content development, for several reasons (including that it was new, and that NWN2's Granny based design made it very difficult to develop). Since I felt that the project I was working on needed a decent variety of custom content to be done right, I chose to continue working in NWN.

 

3) Development in NWN is faster and easier than in NWN2 (especially when it comes to area modeling, because of NWN's tileset-based design). Since my modding time has always been extremely limited (and practically non-existent nowadays), developing in NWN2 didn't seem to me to be a practical choice given my circumstances.

 

4) Running NWN2 demanded computing and graphics resources that were significantly ahead of its time. Until recent years, these resources weren't standard on most systems, which restricted the player based still further.


Now speaking personally, with the exception of a few features, I think that NWN2's design is superior, and preferable, to NWN's. Leaving aside CC considerations, if I were starting from scratch today and actually had the time to spend modding, I would likely build in NWN2.

 

If I had unlimited resources and the ability to spend as much time modding as I wanted I would be all over it. But I don't, and in terms of the amount of time I need to invest in a toolset to accomplish a specific goal, Aurora crushes Electron. Everything is just faster in Aurora...


Third... In two words...

Rideable mounts.

 

This was a big point for me as well. One of the main things that I wanted for my project (which I did get to do, but which I unfortunately never got to fully exploit) were ridable pegasi.

 

NWN2 has rideable mounts.

 

That's good to hear. When did that become possible? It certainly wasn't the case when I needed it.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_henesua]

               

The way I think of NWN and NWN2 is that

 

NWN is preferable for making a PW or doing multiplayer

 

and that

 

NWN2 is better for single player modding.

 

this may not actually be true, but it feels like the case to me.

 

For myself, as to why I don't use NWN2, I'm not very interested in modding a single player module. I've partially completed so many that I can't keep count, and I find every time I make any progress I start getting bored and thinking about how to pick apart what I am doing and seeing what it does in multiplayer. I've done that with most of my content. Perhaps its because I've always had a server and could just post my stuff and ask for feedback from players, and thats all I really wanted. Meanwhile if I released a single player module I'd have to maintain it. I'd rather move on to the next fun idea I want to implement or randomly hop on to the server as a DM and catch a player to stab with that fragment of a story I'm too lazy to write down.

 

Maybe there's another reason I'm not excited about NWN2.

 

I started out in this hobby playing with a real game development environment with a real terrain engine and stuff - Unity. Its a ton of work, super flexible, and fun, but a major time suck just to make rudimentary games (and all of my stuff sucks anyway so its hard to motivate myself for that much investment in crappy, partially finished projects. I made this archery game thats so mind numbingly boring that I never even finished it properly). But the point is that there are so many tools out now that are easy to use, that are far more powerful than NWN2, that I don't understand why I'd use it because I find myself constantly frustrated with using the D&D ruleset in a computer game anyway, wanting to work around it, or kill it off, or make it work rather than totally suck which is so damn hard to do in anything but pen and paper. So all that to say that if I was going to seriously make a single player game again, I'd rather start from scratch than bother with NWN2.

 

The base NWN however is so simplistic and easy to do things with despite all its problems (and oh man those issues are legion) its still satisfying to bang out messy AI, tweak art assets, invent new items, new spells, feats, interfaces and so on and just keep going. Even with my limited time, I can still create stuff in it, and not have to think too hard. Whereas if I was working in Unity or NWN2 or JMonkey or something I'd probably never get beyond making a few art assets for it. Thats actually why I came to NWN - to stop working on art - and focus on game play behaviors. And I think ultimately for a while it was a good choice because its so damn easy to mod. Granted if you think outside the box and don't have virusman or acaos's or skywing or paineternal or... yeah all those peoples' skills you'll bang your head against a wall of hardcoding - but even then it forces creative thinking.

 

So yeah, ramble ramble. Totally pointless post. Just my feelings on it. And the real point is that these choices aren't rational so don't over think or worry about why one person chooses an engine to work with. Its a complex mix of things that color people's proclivities.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_rjshae]

               

I still get random and not so random crashes when using the toolset. Some of the wizards always crash the toolset, I don't recall which those were at the moment. There are some weird graphical glitches in the GUI which make it hard to create and paint terrain, but not impossible. I might have lived with that, but not with all those crashes.

 

Yes there are some lingering bugs with the toolset; mostly minor IMO. The Appearance Wizard is particularly notorious though, although I still use it because I'm familar with the quirks. For the most part people who use the toolset regularly are familiar with the issues and it doesn't pose a significant obstacle.

 

As for creating custom content for NWN2, well, you need 3dmax for that, gmax is not enough, so unless you're a student or you're willing to sell your firstborn (not that I even have one) to be able to buy that program you're out of luck.

 

To the best of my knowledge, this is only true for creating animated models. I use Blender pretty regularly to create custom content (here for example), including porting tilesets fron NWN. Scripts and visual effects typically don't require any special tools.

 

Anyway, I can well understand the reasons given why modders like to stick with NWN. I just prefer working with the capabilities of the NWN2 engine.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

I'm not a serious NWN modder by any stretch.  Basically just create custom trainers for a small LAN group of about 30 to 40 players.

 

But I can tell you, having neither touched a toolset prior to NWN nor gotten proficient with object-oriented scripting, I jumped right in with NWN, creating modules that would do pretty much what I needed even with my limited knowledge base.  I still have a deep respect and awe for modders that can solve problems quickly that would take me a very long time by trial and error if solved at all.

 

That said, a few years ago I tried NWN2, first as a player and then moved ahead to try out the toolset to make some simple modules.  IMO the learning curve is just way too steep.  Too bad really, because from what I understand, the rule set is closer to 3.5 which is the version we are using in our PnP meetings and have spent a lot of labor (not me personally, but other members better at modding than I) trying to customize NWN to reflect that D&D version better for on-line (a great portion of the PnP group plays a NWN LAN as well).  The fact remains that a lot of design effort that originates for SP testing eventually will find its way into on-line play so the investment pretty much kills two birds with one stone.

 

The NWN2 community is just as helpful solving problems and recommending scripting strategy as those in the NWN network, but there is just a lot more to learn before one can "solo".  At least, that's been my own experience.

 

So, based on that, the extra time it takes to achieve the same level of familiarity with the NWN2 toolset as the NWN1 means the additional creative investment would need to show an even greater return for making that commitment... to make any economic sense.  Related to that commitment is the relative size of potential users (NWN2 player community) of one's creation and, at the time I was trying to get handy creating NWN2 modules, the NWN community was far larger than that of NWN2.  Fewer users means less impact for time spent developing content.  I suppose the relative size of the respective communities has converged to some degree in the past few years, but it would require repeating learning the few basics I mastered all over again (and I have less patience, less endurance and an attention deficit to deal with today).  Doesn't mean I wouldn't like to try.  Only so many hours in days that are passing faster each time I blink.