Author Topic: Shapeshifter, Good at Many Forms (Non-MinMax)  (Read 2162 times)

Legacy_Bogdanov89

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Shapeshifter, Good at Many Forms (Non-MinMax)
« Reply #15 on: June 19, 2014, 09:18:58 pm »


               

I feel so stupid right now... thanks for explaining '<img'>



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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« Reply #16 on: June 19, 2014, 09:24:41 pm »


               

HOW is this multiples of 4 affecting the base attack bonus?

Druid shifter and monk all are 3/4 base attack bonus per level, so why does it matter to be a multiple of 4?




They each count separately.


 


So 8 druid is 6 BAB.  6 Druid/2 Shifter is 4 + 1 = 5 BAB.  5 Druid/2 Shifter/1 Monk is 3 + 1 + 0 = 4 BAB.


 


However, once you hit level 20 you simply get 1 AB every odd level, regardless of classes.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MannyJabrielle

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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2014, 05:25:19 am »


               

I think the key to making a really good shifter is to focus on one or two shapes.  By focus, I mean taking feats that compliment the shape in question.


For example.... kobold commando form.  It gives decent dex, uses shortsword, doesn't alter your constitution score while shifted.  To focus on that one, I wouldn't go "all stealthy focus" necessarily (given the shape's innate stealthy goodies), but rather, I would toss in barbarian levels, feats focusing on the shortsword, and pump up constitution as much as possible.  Raging kobold with good dex and good constitution.  For focusing on say, rakshasa form.... empower and/or maximize spell feat coupled with enough druid levels to memorize 1 empowered or 1 maximized ice storm.... spell penetration feats, and then whatever to shore up the rak's physical defenses (since it's magical defenses are immunity to every spell 8th level and lower).


For unarmed shapes, I would check the wiki since certain shapes make use of certain unarmed focused feats, can't remember which off the top of my head, something like dragonshape benefits from overwhelming crit, but not improved ciritcal for unarmed or something like that... oddball stuff.


In short... being "good at many things" is very tough to pull off, but focusing on a specific thing or two, MAYBE even three depending on synergies... very very doable.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2014, 02:07:03 pm »


               


For unarmed shapes, I would check the wiki since certain shapes make use of certain unarmed focused feats, can't remember which off the top of my head, something like dragonshape benefits from overwhelming crit, but not improved ciritcal for unarmed or something like that... oddball stuff.




 


Weapon focus (unarmed) does not work (except for touch attacks) with creature weapons.  Weapon specialization (unarmed) does not work with creature weapons.  Devastating critical (unarmed) does not work with creature weapons.  Improved critical (unarmed) and overwhelming critical (unarmed) do both work, but this could be a game bug as it means Improved critical (creature) and overwhelming critical (creature) are non-functional feats. 


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MannyJabrielle

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« Reply #19 on: June 22, 2014, 04:20:51 am »


               

That sounds about right.  One of my favorite PW characters is a shifter, and improved crit-unarmed works for his dragon shape.


 


Would it be certain that the creature weapon versions would be bugged then?  Has anybody actually tested that out?


 


Edit: And would it be an actual bug?  I suppose strictly speaking, yes, but for a default game, I don't think any shifter forms have the creature versions of those feats, and can't be chosen by the player, so there is some benefit to the player, but nothing gamebreaking per se.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #20 on: June 22, 2014, 05:13:45 am »


               




That sounds about right.  One of my favorite PW characters is a shifter, and improved crit-unarmed works for his dragon shape.


 


Would it be certain that the creature weapon versions would be bugged then?  Has anybody actually tested that out?


 


Edit: And would it be an actual bug?  I suppose strictly speaking, yes, but for a default game, I don't think any shifter forms have the creature versions of those feats, and can't be chosen by the player, so there is some benefit to the player, but nothing gamebreaking per se.




 


It is a bug in so far as many standard creatures were given improved critical (creature) (not one standard creature is given the unarmed variant) and the feat does nothing for them.  The implementation fell short of BioWare's design.  When looking at weapon focus, weapon specialization, and devastating critical the system checks the weapon equipped in the creature weapon slot.  But for improved critical and overwhelming critical, the weapon is not checked and the attacks are assumed to be unarmed.


 


EDIT: If you want a full study on the natural weapon slots, look at the fourth paragraph of the NWN wiki's natural weapon article.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MannyJabrielle

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« Reply #21 on: June 22, 2014, 05:30:44 am »


               

I'll definitely take a look at that.  Been thinking about reworking shifters for a module I'm working on. If I do, that resource would be very useful.  Thanks!



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Waschlaff Duschmann

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« Reply #22 on: June 28, 2014, 12:41:29 pm »


               

Building a shifter is al little more complicated than other classes, but i found it very rewarding.


This guide helped me immensly with getting the underlying mechanics straight, i am however, not entirely sure if the guide applies totally to the final version of NWN:


http://www.gamefaqs....dark/faqs/27914


 


The most important thing to watch out for is the spellcaster class (i am not even entirely sure if that issue became adressed in the final version, but my guess is a no): Basically the first class you take will be used as caster level for all casting purposes. So if you want, for example, your rakshasa to cast decent ice storms later you do not start out as a monk (1 level *cough* *cough*). Also it essential that you consider your BAB, because if you ruin it early on your shifter will end up weak in offense (especially early on). The third thing you absolutely have to pay attention to is how and what equipment merges on your shapes and this is different and not a constant (and you get no documentation for this in the ingame manual, yay - but the guide above adresses this; btw the creature armor issues, gargoyle for example, have been adressed, to my knowledge). Regarding weapon merge you have to know base damage and to-hit do not merge, but all other properities.


 


To those claiming the shifter class is overall weak i have to say PVP shifters have been done and done well. The problem is that you really need to know what you are doing and documentation is virtually not existant.


 


Another thing is to consider that a druid also gets a lot of shapeshifting (wildshapes, construct and dragonshapes for example). And you get decent spellcasting on top of that. So why not simply build a druid when you have to sacrifice so much for a few additional shapes? They even get dragon shape which is basically the crowning jewel of shapeshifting? Well... there are differences, especially in creature abilites and spellcasting.


 


The breath attack of a druid (for dragonshape), for example, comes at a -4 dc penalty. This doesn't only mean a pure shifter will deal considerably more damage, it also is harder to resist or avoid by save.


 


The shifter is basically a caster class on its own with acess to spell like abilities via its shapes, as well as a pretty decent melee ability should you feel the need for it.


 


The wyrmling breath attack is an early strong spell-like ability which can be used on a nearly constant basis, far beyond that what ordinary casters can muster early on. When encountering foes with resistance you can simply switch the color of the wyrmling (and you should as the shapes also introduce vulnerabilities). Its very flexible. You also get true seeing on top of that. I found myself using wyrmling shape a lot. It merges items and armor (though no weapons and remember no stacking bonuses), so it can be considerably beefed up in tougness. Early on its certainly a winner and the breath wepon scales well enough to be of use till you can shift to dragon form. So there you have it: basically your unlimited basic-attack spell form. Did i mention that this is an area attack?

 


The next notable form is the gargoyle. It merges armor and items plus 34 AC it brings on the table on its own. Furthermore it sports DR 25/+1, so as long as you are not confronted by magic weapons overcoming damage resistance you basically wade through opponents which wipe entire groups at your level range. Its a pretty good tank aviable relatively early, though meleeing through scores of enemies will take time. Epic gargoyle will up that to 44 AC and DR 25/+7. In a low magic environment there is very little that can overome this. Oh and it gets power attack as well as BAB +4. It feels like cheating... because, well it IS cheating in low magic environments.


 


Then there is the rakasha for casting unlimited ice storms (remember the caster level !!!), basilisk/medusa for flesh to stone, the mindflayer with mindblast, the undead lord (wich actually merges weapons with hefty damage resistances), etc, etc... you get the idea. Oh... and shapes do come with their own BAB bonus (Epic Drider +9, Risen Lord +10, Kobold Commando +13, etc). So if anybody is walking around with +15 weapons thats okay, you are at a slight disadvantage to-hit wise, but if those weapons do not exist... you have a huge advantage at your hands here. You are getting your BAB bonus, no doubt about it. They do not. Plus the extra damage from mergers, of course '<img'>


 


Now that sounds a lot like min-maxing, but i want to remind you that when buildign a shifter you have to know the mechanics or chances are pretty good you ruin it twoards unplayability. Thats where its bad reputation comes from: poor and missing documentation. What i am saying here is not you shoudl build your shifter twoard maximum DPS, i am just saying don't spoil it. And if you don't spoil it you can play aroudn with it and it will be fun. I don't even include monk levels anymore, because it strikes me as unesthetical. Doesn't have much impact, you don't need monk AC to migrate damage. Not really.


 


With respect to that i also want to you to take the folloing link to heart when building characters, this approach totally changed everything i looked at charcter building for me. and it works very well:


 



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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« Reply #23 on: June 28, 2014, 12:54:32 pm »


               

That guide is still somewhat accurate except the bugs and issues noted at the end. Most of them has been fixed between official patches already.


 



 


nd shapes do come with their own BAB bonus



This is not true, there is no BAB bonus neither direct AB bonus, this is very badly interpreted in nwn wiki. This value is an AB increase you get from the strength, weapon enhancement and creature size. Which varies depends on your current stats so you wont get exactly +12 in every case.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Waschlaff Duschmann

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« Reply #24 on: June 28, 2014, 01:08:46 pm »


               

Okay, but the character still does allright. Maybe you hit less then a fully geared fighter, but who cares? Just toast them '<img'>



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #25 on: June 28, 2014, 04:32:33 pm »


               


This is not true, there is no BAB bonus neither direct AB bonus, this is very badly interpreted in nwn wiki.




 


And one of the many reasons I opted to post an article for each form.  AB is nice comparatively, but even there the comparison can be quite off with a feats like weapon finesse and superior weapon focus taken into consideration.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #26 on: June 28, 2014, 04:38:38 pm »


               

The most important thing to watch out for is the spellcaster class (i am not even entirely sure if that issue became adressed in the final version, but my guess is a no): Basically the first class you take will be used as caster level for all casting purposes. So if you want, for example, your rakshasa to cast decent ice storms later you do not start out as a monk (1 level *cough* *cough*).



 


I actually made a build that did just that.  Monk 25/Druid 5/Shifter 10.  It has Outsider shape, with a huge monk speed.  Serves as a quite effective light artillery.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Waschlaff Duschmann

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« Reply #27 on: June 28, 2014, 04:46:25 pm »


               

So... the caster level bug is history? I never had the heart to try.


 


No, wait... you took advantage of it. Very creative use of game mechanic, then again technically it is cheating '<img'>



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #28 on: June 28, 2014, 05:14:44 pm »


               

It could be seen as cheating from the PnP scope.  But if you added PnP class abilities that NWN lacks and throw that character onto a server, it would be seen as cheating from an NWN scope.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Waschlaff Duschmann

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« Reply #29 on: June 28, 2014, 05:19:02 pm »


               

Hey, you can play the game like you want. No offence taken. Its just... monk levels are technically not supposed to count as caster levels, you know '<img'>


ITs about how you want to play. If you are fine with it, then it is fine.