Shapeshifter, Good at Many Forms (Non-MinMax)

[Legacy_Linthalda]

               

What I am aiming at doing is just making a pretty reasonable Shapeshifter class. The part I want that may be unreasonable is that I'm looking to get as many of the different forms in as I can, while still leaving the character a reasonable contender. No hard modules or PvP play necessarily, this is just for fun, but I don't want it to be nigh unplayable either, although that would probably be hard to accomplish with a Druid.

 

I mostly just thought it would be fun to have a Druid/Shifter, maybe a Monk level for the AC bonus, and focus more on getting forms for having fun switching. I would probably like to get Extend Spell for increased buff durations, and I wouldn't want to be a totally worthless caster. A friend is planning on playing with me, and we'll probably go through the OC, as well as the expacs, then tackle some custom stuff. He is going to be a Ranger, I believe, and he's thinking about taking the Archery route.

 

This character need not be obscenely powerful, erego it's somewhat easier to sacrifice some strengths for forms. I'll probably take it into some custom modules with a friend (who, as stated, is probably playing a Ranger), but there's little likelihood of it seeing PvP play for anything other than dumb fun.

 

Any interesting ideas, or should I just go straight Druid, with like 11 Shifter, 1 Monk, and the rest Druid? '>

 

Thanks!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

What you are asking for isn't that hard to build as in a low magic environment druidic and shifter forms actually do quite well in combat.  Often the third class chosen is monk allowing wisdom to be used as AC (in addition to it already aiding the DC of druidic spells, and being a prerequisite for shifter).  Monk also brings in stunning fist to aid your unarmed forms (technically they use a creature weapon and thus have different damages than what is specified for monk fists).  Feats that may interest you are brew potion (as you can use potions while shifted) and zen archery.  (In addition you should take alertness as that is a prerequisite for shifter).  If you want all the advanced shifter forms you will need 17 levels of shifter.  The improved elemental forms for druid require 20 levels of druid, and 26 druid levels if you want to use these forms infinitely.  Obviously you won't get both druid 26 and shifter 17, so something has to be given up.  The best way to level up a shifter is to keep the pre-epic class distribution in multiples of 4 (e.g. Druid 12, Shifter 8; or  Druid 8, Shifter 8, Monk 4) as this optimizes your base attack bonus.  In epic levels you will need to take a few Great Wisdom feats in order to qualify for dragon shape.  With the wisdom and all the shape feats you are only left with a  few  remaining epic feats (typically 3-5 feats assuming you start with 18 wisdom) to spend on armor skin, epic prowess, and whatever else.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Linthalda]

               

Awesome! Thanks very much! This is extremely helpful. (If anyone else wants to post as well, though, please post your two cents as well!)

 

I've seen people mention the low-magic thing for Shapeshifers when I was looking up builds for reference and research, and I was wondering what the primary problem Shapeshifters have dealing with magic is? Is it primarily the Will saves and the Spell Resistance, or is it more that you can't really be a Shapeshifter, have decent AB, AC, and saves all at once?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

There are a few problems.

 

1, for most shapes only Chest/Helm/Shield merge.

 

2, these do NOT stack.  If you have +4 Strength on Chest and +4 Strength on Helm and +4 Strength on Shield you get a total of +12 Strength while NOT shifted...but only +4 strength WHILE shifted.  This also applies to AC -- and some shapes like Dragon Shape have +20 Dodge AC as part of the shape so things like Bard Song and Haste do not give an extra AC.

 

3, these two things combined means Shifters tend not to scale very well, they have a general power level that isn't changed much by gear

 

"Low magic" means the environment ITSELF has less magic -- weaker items, effectively.  In a non-magic world Shifters would be absolutely completely utterly broken.  In low-magic Shifters are still extremely powerful.  In mid-magic Shifters usually start to fall behind and in high-magic they become quite bad.

 

+6 Dragon Claws are amazing if no weapon goes past +3, it's awful if everyone is running around with +15 weapons.

 

This is why most worlds tend to modify shifters extensively or they're basically ignored -- very much broken by default.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Linthalda]

               

Ohh, I see what you mean now. I do remember them mentioning magic items. I don't know why I didn't recall it meant magical items. Are pure casters similarly gimped later on, or do magical items benefit them in a similar fashion? It seems like they benefit more from levels (all the spells that get stronger based primarily on caster level) than from equipment, though maybe I'm thinking too much in terms of +Intelligence/Wisdom gear, etc, and not being broad enough.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Terrorble]

               

Allow me to lament for a moment.  Poor, poor default shifters.  So much potential, so much we've done with them, yet still short of the dreams I had for them.  Okay, moving on.  Depending on module difficulty and magic level, they can be fun - very good at times.  But taking a monk level is often a necessity to get that WIS AC bonus (tumble AC too).  Otherwise, your AC is so dismally low that a gang rats can eat you alive.  Not to forget with the monk attack schedule and free Cleave Feat, there's unlikely any other class choice that can do so much for you.

 

If you're playing levels 1-20 and want to use the shapes, you'll want to get your shifter levels in early.  This avoids using a weak shape like a wyrmling at level10 to fight.  The side effect, of course, is that your druid spells will be limited, short and weak until later.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_MagicalMaster]

               

Ohh, I see what you mean now. I do remember them mentioning magic items. I don't know why I didn't recall it meant magical items. Are pure casters similarly gimped later on, or do magical items benefit them in a similar fashion? It seems like they benefit more from levels (all the spells that get stronger based primarily on caster level) than from equipment, though maybe I'm thinking too much in terms of +Intelligence/Wisdom gear, etc, and not being broad enough.

 

Casters can gain additional spell slots for MORE of their best spells which helps.

 

In addition, casters gain the defensive benefits of ALL gear which tends to help them more than fighters since they're more vulnerable (at lower magic levels stuff like Stoneskin helps but higher magic weapons punch through that).

 

If it was a ridiculously high magic world where people ran around with 50 resist to everything along with +20 weapons with 20 bonus damage of every element then mages would certainly fall behind but I've never seen an environment like that.

 

I don't think I've ever seen a world where pure clerics/sorcerers/wizards weren't still extremely powerful, even if multi-classing was better or non-casters wound up being slightly better.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_HipMaestro]

               

Shifters are the only class besides Pale Master that can intrinsically neutralize DevCrit threats, specifically using the Undead and Construct forms.

 

You'll never get to the most advanced shapes (like Risen Lord, for instance) in the OC, but can get there with SoU/HotU campaigns.  HotU is actually a good example of what happens to a shifter's comparable effectiveness in a relatively high-magic environment with those +10 weapons, enhanced armor and item immunity props galore designed into the campaign.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Linthalda]

               

So I guess the greater question is: Should I take the Druid levels or the Shifter levels earlier on? (Meaning in the 5-12/15 level range.) I'm also wondering if I should take more than 1 Monk Level. Perhaps do something like 4 Druid, 1 Monk, 4 Shifter. Then another 4 Druid, 4 Shifter, 3 Monk? I'm not sure. What do you folks think? This feedback so far is great!

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               In my brief experience, I prefer the casting Druid with their benefits over the Shifter. Never saw the need for adding Monk, though I did try a few other builds (eg; Fighter, Rogue. etc). In the end, you should choose what will meet your short and long term goals for play.

Thus, I would go for 12 Druid/ 8 Shifter, or 8 Druid/ 8 Shifter/ 4 other class.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_WhiZard]

               

So I guess the greater question is: Should I take the Druid levels or the Shifter levels earlier on? (Meaning in the 5-12/15 level range.) I'm also wondering if I should take more than 1 Monk Level. Perhaps do something like 4 Druid, 1 Monk, 4 Shifter. Then another 4 Druid, 4 Shifter, 3 Monk? I'm not sure. What do you folks think? This feedback so far is great!

 

You probably want 8 shifter levels pre-epic.  This gives you the humainoid form and you are not that many levels away from getting epic forms.  There are two routes for leveling.  One is take 5 Druid levels and then concentrate on shifter for 8 levels filling in other classes for the remaining seven levels.  The other route is to take 12 druid levels off the bat (gives you the improved wildshape forms) and then take the 8 shifter (taking your monk level in the epic levels).  Both have their pros and cons, but in general the shapes usually don't need that initial monk level until later on, when the gear gets better.

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

Basically everyone agrees with a fact that shifter is poor and weak due to various limitations or missing features, so if you are playing OC, why not improve shifter with 2DA editing or custom content?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Bogdanov89]

               

Sorry if i am posting an off-topic question, but why is it so crucial to get a combination of 4 levels of each class?

Like 12 (4*3) druid, 8 (4*2) shifter, 4 monk... why is all in 4??

 

Direct quote i am asking about:

"The best way to level up a shifter is to keep the pre-epic class distribution in multiples of 4 (e.g. Druid 12, Shifter 8; or  Druid 8, Shifter 8, Monk 4) as this optimizes your base attack bonus."

 

HOW is this multiples of 4 affecting the base attack bonus?

Druid shifter and monk all are 3/4 base attack bonus per level, so why does it matter to be a multiple of 4?

               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Elhanan]

               It is because that these classes fall into the 3/4 category; to get the best results for BAB and ST, it seems to be best to take 4 lvls in pre-Epic designs.
               
               

               
            

[Legacy_Shadooow]

               

It is because that these classes fall into the 3/4 category; to get the best results for BAB and ST, it seems to be best to take 4 lvls in pre-Epic designs.

more detailed answer: druid, shifter and other 3/4BAB classes gets +0increase 1st level from each fours. Thus taking 4druid levels gives you +3BAB while taking 3 druid 1 shifter gives you only +2. The same applies for 1/2BAB classes, they get +1BAB every second level.