Author Topic: Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)  (Read 1443 times)

Legacy_Bogdanov89

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Before i start i just gotta say i read about 10+ various guides on making different spell blades and god knows how many fighter+wizard+X char builds - but one thing that i really am missing in those guides is the actual focus on both CASTING damaging/evil/nasty spells AND hacking away with melee weapons.


I do wanna use spell buffs for melee fighting but i don't want to neglect using my badass nuking spells and crowd controls.


 


I mostly play the original campaigns (bioware made) with my brother over internet (no pvp), so the character i wanna make does not need to be "super uber strong" - but i do want to make at least a decent character that goes up to level 20 for now and can stand on his own.


 


I am trying to build a heavily armored melee (2handed and/or 1h+shield) character that cast even the highest levels of wizard/sorcerer spells during that combat (and in heavy armor).


As you guessed it, this is just for fun and not for any kind of world record breaking... except maybe in silliness!


 


What i (as a complete noob) thought of was something like this:


 


- Wizard/Sorcerer that can do all high level spells (at least 1 lvl9 spell), also using A LOT of Still Spell (for heavy armor) and probably constant use of defensive casting to avoid AoO against me. I know i can not still spell level 9 spells without the epic auto-still-spell feat, but im making a plan for a lvl20 char (atm).


Much damaging spells, buffing spells and evil crowd control spells along side melee hacking!


 


- Almost no dexterity (full plate), no wisdom, no charisma, medium/high constitution, i guess 20 intellect, lots of strength?


 


- A couple of Fighter levels for the armor/weapon (using heaviest armor and big weapons or tower shield) feats and various combat feats like cleave and weapon spec - also to take feats for Weapon master if going that road.


 


- Potentially a couple/many of Weapon Master or Barbarian or Red Dragon Disciple levels, to get all the sweet feats that are worth taking.


 


- Definitely must reach at least 16 BAB for full 4 attacks per round at/before level 20, so that my epic levels keep the 4 attacks per round regardless of what epic class levels i take.


 


What i imagined is me casting big AOE spells or crowd controll spells both before and during the fight (in heavy armor) while hacking apart some FOOLS with my leet flaming weapon that does nasty crits (keen buff, maybe even weapon master feats) OR going bastard+tower like a baws.


 


Anyway, after all that ranting, what i am hoping for is that you experienced NWN character creators can give me some advice on how can i make this character as good as possible... or as least bad as possible...


 


Which feats do you suggest for me to take... which classes to pick up... how far into the improved crit/overwhelming crit feats to go in... do i take the spell focus/spell penetration feats...  any suggestion on the class levelin order... do i go for weapon master (need whirlwind an other stuff for it)... what epic feats would be good for this combat approach... how much do i put into STR/Con/Intel?


 


Either way thank you very much for reading through this silly post, and i greatly welcome any advice you can offer for this full-plate-caster thing i am attempting '<img'>



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #1 on: June 14, 2014, 07:19:54 am »


               

This was there already several times.


 


Its highly dependable on an environment you want to play.


 


For an OCs, single players or PWs with low-magic environment you can play as a pure wizard/sorcerer using bow or sword.


 


For a more serious modules, PWs with lvl 40 content or PvP, there is only few spellsword builds which would worked. Forget about WebShaman's Multiclassed Melee Mage, this is working only in OC. In a module like this you need 4base attacks per round (16BAB) and very high AB to hit anything at lvl 40 especially other players because average ac with +5ac items is usually 60+.


 


So if you are playing OC, you dont have to worry about build at all. Just start with wizard/sorcerer and then later add fighter or other full BAB class if you feel you need it.


 


For a 40lvl PWs, the only working combos are:


wizard/AA


wizard/cleric


(sorcerer works too but compared to the wizard is way worse choice because of the wizard's bonus feats and configurable spell selection)


 


with a CPP installed which give you a choice to take epic spells without 21caster level, there might be other choices such as paladin21/wizard18/monk1 but they arent so good actualy.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MagicalMaster

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Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #2 on: June 14, 2014, 07:32:41 am »


               

- Wizard/Sorcerer that can do all high level spells (at least 1 lvl9 spell), also using A LOT of Still Spell (for heavy armor) and probably constant use of defensive casting to avoid AoO against me. I know i can not still spell level 9 spells without the epic auto-still-spell feat, but im making a plan for a lvl20 char (atm).


 


This means you cannot take more than 3 non-wizard levels or 2 non-sorc levels.  Which means you'd want to something like 18 Wizard/2 Fighter potentially or 18 Sorcerer/2 Paladin.


 



- Definitely must reach at least 16 BAB for full 4 attacks per round at/before level 20, so that my epic levels keep the 4 attacks per round regardless of what epic class levels i take.


 


This is impossible.  Or rather you could take a maximum of 8 Wizard/Sorcerer levels and still accomplish this -- which means your spells are going to be awful.


 


Is there a reason you don't want to play a cleric?  They fit this definition perfectly -- plenty of self buffs, full plate, powerful AoEs/CCs/instant death/etc, and FAR FAR FAR better melee.  Like gazillions better melee.


 


If you're dead set on this idea you'd probably want something like this...


 


Human


16 Str


12 Dex


14 Con


10 Int


8 Wis


15 Cha


 


01 Sorc Toughness, Still Spell


02 Sorc


03 Paladin Exotic Proficiency


04 Paladin +1 Cha


05 Sorc


06 Sorc Focus Bastard Sword


07 Sorc


08 Sorc +1 Cha


09 Sorc Extend Spell


10 Sorc


11 Sorc


12 Sorc +1 Cha, Empower Spell


13 Sorc


14 Sorc


15 Sorc Maximize Spell


16 Sorc


17 Sorc


18 Sorc Combat Casting (for Improved Combat Casting)


19 Sorc


20 Sorc


 



You can still generally play it as a pure sorcerer, you're just behind by a spell level and have lower DCs.  Your melee presence will get progressively worse but it's at least functional for the first 6-8 levels.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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Trying to make a bad ass plate-melee-caster (from lvl1 to 20) :)
« Reply #3 on: June 14, 2014, 08:35:38 am »


               

I agree with what has been said about the limitations of a spellsword build. E.g. max level 20 BAB for a mage who can cast level 9 spells is 11, etc. However, the Bioware campaigns are generally very forgiving, so one can still complete those modules with a melee-mage toon.


 


The one thing I don't think has been mentioned is that Moskwa's PnP Tenser's Transformation is really a must-have override for someone intent on playing a spellsword. In essence, it makes Tenser's Transformation usable for a mage and gives mages something of an answer to the cleric buffs that bring that class into melee respectability. It's not as good as the whole array of cleric buffs, but it's head-and-shoulders above the default Tenser's.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #4 on: June 14, 2014, 05:50:47 pm »


               

The polymorphs, even as is, already give mages plenty of a melee presence for a level 20 scope.  A strength build gets 20-22 strength, compare that to Tenser's 20 strength,  20 BAB vs. 10 BAB + Tenser's 10 AB, 4 APR, vs. Tenser's 4 APR (the AB levels for the bonus two attacks are higher AB than the standard progression and thus up the average AB per blow by +2 with haste or +5 without haste), +5 enhancement vs. Tenser's +3 enhancement.  A mage is not lagging that far behind.  The polymorph's AC is not that great, but the mage has damage shields.  Also, devastating critical is often not an issue in a level 20 setting.  Don't like Tenser, try out the shapechange forms.  Iron golem has immunity to critical hits and 300HP for your damage shields to counter.  Death slaad has elemental resistance and regeneration.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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« Reply #5 on: June 14, 2014, 08:35:48 pm »


               

Default Tenser's doesn't really keep up with melee classes because items don't merge. E.g., a fighter in the Bioware campaigns will have STR-enhancing items, in addition to potions and so on. By the end of the OC, a melee toon can keep STR undispellably capped, probably over 30. I certainly agree that the AB progression is fine with Tenser's and actually excellent in the epics. And, the AC while under TT can be somewhat ok; mid- to upper-30s given spell buffs in addition to the +4 Tenser's dodge bonus and a potential dodge bonus from Haste, if the PC casts it.


 


But, the problem with the default Tenser's isn't that it provides too little melee presence. The problem is that the polymorph system is poorly suited to mages or any other class with bonus spell slots from items and item bonuses to caster ability without spell effects that can compensate (even druids suffer from the former and from the latter before druid level 24). Because of that, each use of Tenser's means that the player 1) loses spells in any gear-granted slots and 2) has to waste time resetting spell slots. The former tends to undermine the strategy of using Tenser's to melee mobs and save spells for tougher encounters and bosses because the player has to be extra careful in which spells go into which slots or he will unshift to deal with a boss and find himself without the spells he had planned to use. The latter is just an annoyance. And, both issues lead to resting often to regain spells. Resting isn't significantly restricted in the Bioware campaigns, but resting and rebuffing so often makes for tedious gameplay, especially, as the OP indicates, if one is playing with another PC.


 


(That whole issue could have been addressed in scripting if BW had given us bonus spell slots available as an effect instead of just an item property. But, that's water under the bridge at this point.)


 


I totally agree that Shapechange is probably the best melee option for a pre-epic mage. IG shape is one I use regularly and the spell lasts 1 turn/level, which is long enough to deal with lots of enemies. But, it suffers from the same spell-slot-management issues that the default Tenser's does.


 


Anyway, I didn't intend to derail the discussion. I just wanted to point out that there is an easy-to-add alternative version of Tenser's Transformation which is a better option than the default for most spellswords.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #6 on: June 14, 2014, 09:31:52 pm »


               


Default Tenser's doesn't really keep up with melee classes because items don't merge. E.g., a fighter in the Bioware campaigns will have STR-enhancing items, in addition to potions and so on. By the end of the OC, a melee toon can keep STR undispellably capped, probably over 30. I certainly agree that the AB progression is fine with Tenser's and actually excellent in the epics. And, the AC while under TT can be somewhat ok; mid- to upper-30s given spell buffs in addition to the +4 Tenser's dodge bonus and a potential dodge bonus from Haste, if the PC casts it.


 




 


And what strength buffs does a level 20 mage have? Negative energy burst for +5 strength, and empowered bull's strength for up to 7 strength.  Yep, a mage can reach that +12 cap with long lasting strength buffs.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Empyre65

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« Reply #7 on: June 14, 2014, 10:58:14 pm »


               

It sounds like what you need is Cleric with 1 or 2 levels of Fighter. A Cleric can always cast with heavy armor, has lots of good buffs, and a few good offensive spells as well. You won't get the 16 BAB you asked for, but Divine Power will give you the 4th attack at full AB instead of -15, so it's even better.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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« Reply #8 on: June 15, 2014, 09:12:07 am »


               

And what strength buffs does a level 20 mage have? Negative energy burst for +5 strength, and empowered bull's strength for up to 7 strength.  Yep, a mage can reach that +12 cap with long lasting strength buffs.




Actually, not in the OC. Since a even a pure mage doesn't reach level 20 in the normal course of the OC, he won't get that +5 strength buff from NEB using an extra spell slot (or consumable) for polymorph and hotkey tricks. And, since empowered Bull's Strength will give less than a +7 bonus 75% of the time, that's also not a reliable buff. And, dispelling will still be a concern that item-wearers don't need to worry about.


However, even if the mage were able to self-buff to cap strength, that would not address the main issue I had with the default Tenser's Transformation.



But, the problem with the default Tenser's isn't that it provides too little melee presence. The problem is that the polymorph system is poorly suited [...]



Unless there is a way around the polymorph issues, I will still prefer the TT mod mentioned earlier for spellswords.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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« Reply #9 on: June 15, 2014, 11:37:08 am »


               


he won't get that +5 strength buff from NEB using an extra spell slot (or consumable) for polymorph and hotkey tricks.


 




wait are you two actually really suggesting to abuse an exploit? cast polymorph self to become zombie and then cast NEB via exploit to buff yourself?


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MannyJabrielle

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« Reply #10 on: June 15, 2014, 12:30:53 pm »


               


Before i start i just gotta say i read about 10+ various guides on making different spell blades and god knows how many fighter+wizard+X char builds - but one thing that i really am missing in those guides is the actual focus on both CASTING damaging/evil/nasty spells AND hacking away with melee weapons.


I do wanna use spell buffs for melee fighting but i don't want to neglect using my badass nuking spells and crowd controls.


 


I mostly play the original campaigns (bioware made) with my brother over internet (no pvp), so the character i wanna make does not need to be "super uber strong" - but i do want to make at least a decent character that goes up to level 20 for now and can stand on his own.


 


I am trying to build a heavily armored melee (2handed and/or 1h+shield) character that cast even the highest levels of wizard/sorcerer spells during that combat (and in heavy armor).


As you guessed it, this is just for fun and not for any kind of world record breaking... except maybe in silliness!


 


What i (as a complete noob) thought of was something like this:


 


- Wizard/Sorcerer that can do all high level spells (at least 1 lvl9 spell), also using A LOT of Still Spell (for heavy armor) and probably constant use of defensive casting to avoid AoO against me. I know i can not still spell level 9 spells without the epic auto-still-spell feat, but im making a plan for a lvl20 char (atm).


Much damaging spells, buffing spells and evil crowd control spells along side melee hacking!


 


- Almost no dexterity (full plate), no wisdom, no charisma, medium/high constitution, i guess 20 intellect, lots of strength?


 


- A couple of Fighter levels for the armor/weapon (using heaviest armor and big weapons or tower shield) feats and various combat feats like cleave and weapon spec - also to take feats for Weapon master if going that road.


 


- Potentially a couple/many of Weapon Master or Barbarian or Red Dragon Disciple levels, to get all the sweet feats that are worth taking.


 


- Definitely must reach at least 16 BAB for full 4 attacks per round at/before level 20, so that my epic levels keep the 4 attacks per round regardless of what epic class levels i take.


 


What i imagined is me casting big AOE spells or crowd controll spells both before and during the fight (in heavy armor) while hacking apart some FOOLS with my leet flaming weapon that does nasty crits (keen buff, maybe even weapon master feats) OR going bastard+tower like a baws.


 


Anyway, after all that ranting, what i am hoping for is that you experienced NWN character creators can give me some advice on how can i make this character as good as possible... or as least bad as possible...


 


Which feats do you suggest for me to take... which classes to pick up... how far into the improved crit/overwhelming crit feats to go in... do i take the spell focus/spell penetration feats...  any suggestion on the class levelin order... do i go for weapon master (need whirlwind an other stuff for it)... what epic feats would be good for this combat approach... how much do i put into STR/Con/Intel?


 


Either way thank you very much for reading through this silly post, and i greatly welcome any advice you can offer for this full-plate-caster thing i am attempting '<img'>




 


For a level 20 cap, you simply cannot get both 16 BAB *and* 9th level arcane spells.  9th level spells require 17 to 18 wiz or sorc levels, leaving room for only enough full BAB class levels to get you 11 BAB for 3 mainhand attacks per round, 4 with haste, or 5 duel-wielding, 6 with haste.


For the OC though that's very decent and will do very well.  I'm currently replaying the OC with a fighter wizard, melee heavy, 4 fighter levels everything else wizard.  It's rather buff-heavy, but even then I have enough slots for a decent number of nuke spells.  I simply need to rest after every two or three encounters, which is doable since you can rest anywhere in the OC.


Since you want the best of both, I would say focus on wizard, and add in 2 fighter levels for weapon and armor proficiency, plus 2 bonus combat feats.  Use your wizard bonus feats for the spell related stuff.... still casting, evocation focus, spell penetration), then use the general feats for combat related stuff.  With wizard18/fighter2, you get a total of 12 feats (7 general, 2 fighter, 3 wizard).


I would say for a still-caster, sword-n-board for higher AC, duel-wield for more attacks.  Duel will require 3 feats for the most attacks, leaving just enough room for great cleave and a weapon focus.


However, I would go for dodge/mobility.  Mobility grants AC bonus vs AoO's which you will get a lot of with a melee caster.  Dodge grants +1 AC vs your current target as well, which is nice too.  Dodge requires 13 dex, so let another stat suffer for that.... I'd say charisma.  Charisma doesn't affect any saves, and you can always boost it back up with magic items when you need to pass persuade checks.


Constitution should be decent... it adds not just HP, but also affects your concentration skill.  I'd sacrifice wisdom for more points into str, con, int as well.  You can easily get mind spell protection, which will automatically protect against a good majority of will-save effects.  Str and Int should be your main focuses... at least 15 starting INT in to get 9th level spells by your later levels.  And you'll need as much as you can spare in STR to carry your armor (and possibly tower shield) and still have room to carry loot.


And choose your spells carefully.  There are a few spells which don't have a somatic component, and can be cast in armor without failing.  Darkness is the only one I know of for certain.... but is probably the most important one.  Make sure you have ultravision or true seeing effect on yourself... cast darkness on YOURSELF or close enough to you so that you are in the darkness, and enemies you are wacking with your weapon will be at a massive disadvantage unless they have TS or ultravision themselves.


If you add in 1 level of rogue, you would get your sneak-attack bonus damage against such targets as well even if they are "facing" you as they can't "see" you to negate the sneak.  If you use a pixie familiar, Tomi as a henchman, or your brother has rogue levels, they too would get sneak damage while in the darkness as well, provided they too have ultravision or TS on themselves.


 


And the last bit of advice I could think of for such a build.... pay attention to your spell slots and spell duration.  You can keep long duration buffs as normal castings and use them before battle when you can freely remove/re-equip your armor.  The only reason you may want to put long duration buffs into a still slot is to free up their normal level slots for stilled version of a lower level attack spell, such as making bull's strength a still-cast so you have more 2nd level slots for stilled magic missiles.


Or, instead of casting spells, use potions when possible.  Bull's, cat's, endurance, those are plentiful in potion or scroll form.


               
               

               
            

Legacy_MrZork

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« Reply #11 on: June 15, 2014, 06:15:28 pm »


               


wait are you two actually really suggesting to abuse an exploit? cast polymorph self to become zombie and then cast NEB via exploit to buff yourself?




 


Well, I didn't bring up the idea and I don't consider it to be greatest way to buff, especially in pre-epics where the cost in spell slots and tedium (and use of quick slots) is pretty high. I don't pretend to speak for WhiZard, but I suspect that he brought it up to explore the question of what's possible for mages in terms of strength buffs as much as anything.


 


Meanwhile, as long as we're being judgmental, I don't know how you draw the line is so clearly on how this technique constitutes abuse of an exploit. Simply doing something that isn't popular or well-known isn't the same as abusing an exploit. The spell clearly notes that it benefits undead and PCs regularly use it to buff undead summons. In multiplayer situations (PWs), I have seen it used to buff shifter PCs. So, this isn't exactly a secret. Doing something isn't abusing an exploit unless the game designers didn't anticipate its use and would have nerfed it if they had. In the case of NEB, the spell script leaves no doubt that the designers very specifically intended it to buff undead strength. The fact that someone makes use of a technique which not everyone else makes use of (or knows about) doesn't make that technique an abuae.


 


(BTW, I am not saying the NEB-polymorph thing couldn't be an exploit. I am saying that there are exploits and there are things that not a lot of people know about or use, for whatever reasons. You haven't explained how this isn't simply the latter.)


               
               

               
            

Legacy_Shadooow

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« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2014, 06:42:11 pm »


               

(BTW, I am not saying the NEB-polymorph thing couldn't be an exploit. I am saying that there are exploits and there are things that not a lot of people know about or use, for whatever reasons. You haven't explained how this isn't simply the latter.)


Casting a NEB on an undead race polymorphed player is not the exploit. Its the casting of the spell in polymorph which doesnt possess any spells. Obviously you cant cast NEB on yourself and we are talking here about an OC and not a PW where someone else might cast it on you. So the only way to do this is to abuse an exploit and cast the NEB after you polymorph into zombie which is not possible normally and is definitely an exploit. Exploit the Bioware tried to stop - see the commend above ClearAllActions line in polymorph self spell script - but havent tied all loose ends.


 


But of course, you might be one of the no-cheating in singleplayer camp, so it wont matter to you.



               
               

               
            

Legacy_HipMaestro

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« Reply #13 on: June 15, 2014, 07:39:51 pm »


               

[The following applies only to the original topic... Level 20 max.]


 


I don't care for pre-epic Still spells.  Not only with regard to 9th levels spells, but you can't extend anything wearing armor without casting failure... not to mention Empowered or Maximized spell versions.


 


If you take Imp Expertise, you won't need plate anyway.  I do like that feat for casting (though some have suggested in the past it is an exploit using it with arcane casting).  If you are not getting enough reciprocal damage with the improved version, you can switch to the +5 one.  Still not enough?  Turn off Expertise altogether.


 


Related question:  Do any of you vets have trouble toggling Expertise mode on/off?  Can there be anything in the queue when you try to toggle it on?  Does flanking effect its toggle? Sometimes it seems stubborn to turn that mode on. At times I must go invisible to turn it on. Anyhoo...


 


Your ability spread plan is going to be dangerous.  Then need for reflect saves is the most common save you will encounter so with a base DEX ability of 8, expect to get hit by everything that requires that save including traps.  IMO arcane casters can use all the DEX they can afford to allocate.  Fort saves will be your next problem and you will have a tough time wearing enough equipment with props that enhance both those saves sufficiently without sacrificing some very useful ones.


 


As others have already suggested, the polymorphs will outdo what the wiz/sorc BAB can achieve in casting form (we are addressing pure caster in this case), so if you want to hit --> polymorph... or *gulp*... True Strike for a round and a half at a clip (which btw cannot be stilled either in pre-epic).  Your polymorphs will all have a constitution that can buffer the damage taken vs. reciprocal damage inflicted better than the base class.  With stoneskin et al., your umber hulk, golem or dragon (for a few examples) will pierce up to 5 DR which is plenty for the OC (BTW, you will not achieve higher than level 18 in that module without very specific ECL exploit and even that only without sharing XP with summon, familiar or party helper throughout the entire adventure).


 


Without AutoStill I wouldn't consider throwing plate (or any armor at all for that matter) onto my caster.  (I've done the un-equip/re-equip routine until it has become stale.)


 


To echo others, if you want to wear plate, cast divine spells or use items to cast spells.


 


Another opinion from the peanut gallery...



               
               

               
            

Legacy_WhiZard

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« Reply #14 on: June 15, 2014, 08:25:45 pm »


               


wait are you two actually really suggesting to abuse an exploit? cast polymorph self to become zombie and then cast NEB via exploit to buff yourself?




 


There is actually a way to do this without the exploit.  Timestop + NEB + Polymorph Self (Zombie).  The burst will land after you have shifted, even though you cast it before the shift.